RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it?

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BitaTruble -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 3:08:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Esinn How do you feel about the fact rated "G"/PG public play or 'pride' of your passion would most likely have you socially marginalized? Still a long way off in most towns but I think society is pushing closer to the point where it is acceptable to see F/F or M/M couples show affection for each other compared to the distant past. Partner on leash Playful but firm spanking Gagged Partner following behind in an obvious submissive posture Putting a well written and tasteful flyer next to another in a store window Pro Dom leaving a business card with others ... .... ...... Parents discipline children publicly. Obviously people dress themselves to attract attention or call attention to this or that. Tasteful breast feeding is allowed. Go to any college town 'slutty' attire is always accepted. I am not sure how I feel about it. *I am not thinking deeply religious deep south nor Manhattan/SF - the more average American town I don't have a problem seeing or doing any of these things but, I live in Portugal and until I moved here, didn't realize just how prudish the States are when it comes to sex, love and the expressions of intimacy. I'll tell you what shocks the hell out of me. The parents who buy their 8 year old "Vice City" video games and let them watch movies beyond their comprehension levels that are full of violence and blood are the same ones that get terrified of an exposed nipple. Now, I ask ya.. what harm did a nipple ever do to anyone? If nudity became a law, 50 years from now, clothing would shock the hell out of the masses.

DemonKia -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 3:09:41 PM)
To me, clearly a big chunk of this discussion is about this line, a vague line, & on one side is what's okay, tolerable, & on the other side is the problematic. Let's propose some new hypotheticals: * A D/s or M/s couple where, in addition to the collar-&-leash in public, the M/D likes to slap the s-type on the face as a playful token of love, an expression of who xhe is. Also likes, out of the same motivation, to call the s-type 'slut', 'piece of ass', 'fuckhole' & other little terms of endearment . . . . Said couple are in WalMart, KMart, or Target, & M/D type is slapping the s-types face & calling the s-type a host of potentially offensive names in a clearly audible tone of voice, sometimes even loud & excited since they're having fun, as they walk thru the store, doing their shopping. I'm actually getting a romantic glow just thinking about it . . . . . If the vanilla people around them start to get offended & leave in a mass exodus way, the store management will likely come & ask the BDSM couple to leave. The BDSM couple explain what's going on & insist they have the right to express themselves in a way that harms no others . . . . . . Eventually the police are called & the BDSM couple wait for this as they are on an educational mission, doing their part to normalize BDSM practices in public . . . .. * Same couple go to the park. The D/M proceeds to do a suspension bondage on the s-type, from a tree or the really handy playground furnishings. The s-type is wearing a bathing suit, one that covers all her naughty bits, & the D/M is wearing shorts & a tee. Just ordinary people doing ordinary stuff. Once the s-type is floating in rope the D/M starts to flog the s-type . . . . All while calling hir a 'nasty slut' & a such like, but they do keep their clothes on. Just boring old non-sexual bondage & SM fun . . . . I guess my biggest problem with this notion of 'pushing the edges to make us all freer' is that I don't think it works by forcing more extremes of behavior on others. Queers didn't get acceptance by having anal sex or girl-on-girl muff-diving in the middle of the grocery store, they did it with kissing & holding hands & sporting rainbows on their clothes & vehicles & homes. Fairly mild signifiers . .. .

SlyStone -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 3:11:33 PM)
If you go out in public, you accept an unspoken waiver to be exposed to anything not explicitly illegal...and sometimes you even get exposed to the illegal. Being offended by mutually consensual human interaction in public is no excuse to treat the participators as the problem when it actually lies in the perceiver. See I disagree, in no way do I feel that the concept of consensuality is somehow a mandate to behave as you please in public. A crack whore giving a blow job on the street to her consensually participating john is not ok by me, and I dont want to live in a society where it is. But the reality is that the police cannot be everywhere and so there is a good chance if you are willing to risk the consequences of running into your boss or if you don't care about freaking out a child or offending that nice old couple out on their evening stroll, the odds are you can get away with just about anything in public if it really matters to you. I would only point out that it is one thing to talk about the world as if it was a theoretical laboratory and it is quite another to live in it, as we all must do.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 3:21:56 PM)
In responding to this I think I want to make it clear that we are discussing the right to express our relationship as we personally choose, NOT what I am INTO but what I find to be acceptable as an expression I can Honestly say that if you are not making a Spectacle of yourselves, if it is as casual as a Mother bringing her child to her breast, or two long loves kissing or holding hands then I can say I would have no issue because I doubt that I would have noticed the process. It does not affect me. Now if you had to Stand on the table and Piss directly into his mouth I would find that to be a different story, it is something that is designed to be witnessed and in my opinion far from any socially accepted form of public activity. Mind you, I am as okay with this expression as I am with Collar and Lead, or Breast Feeding. Truth be told I PERSONALLY DON'T CARE. It doesn't affect me AT ALL. Breast feeding doesn't affect me AT ALL. BDSM Dynamics done in Public or while at a Play party don't affect me AT ALL. If I choose not to witness it then I look away, if I accidently witness part of it I take responsibility for that and move on. I rarely even point out such oddities to people I may even be with unless I know they would want to be aware. My Belief system is that what I do to express myself is MY CHOICE and if doing it breaks the Law then that is MY CRUX to bear. If you witness it and you don't like it I am sorry but your discomfort is not my responsibility. Case in Point I Swear, If I am in an Adult Conversation With an Adult I will use adult words if there are people whom could be offended they are invading on My conversation by listening why should I be responsible for their invasion of my interaction with someone who is not them. I believe it is admirable to be respectful of others but I do not think it is something that I HAVE to do nor do I think it is something that someone else should expect me to do. Personal responsibility should be the responsibility of THE PERSON and NO ONE else. Mind you I tend to always TRY to be respectful of others, I rarely make a spectacle of myself and choose not to do things that are an assult on other people. This is MY CHOICE, however if I ever DID want to I see nothing WRONG with that. Steel

justme1980 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 3:27:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl If a guy spanked a girls arse in London, he'd probably get a standing ovation. agirl Note to self... No trips to london

beargonewild -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 3:32:15 PM)
After reading through this entire thread, the one thing which strikes me is the fact it mostly boils down to being the person's own moral sensibilities that are being tested. Take public displays of affection: most will agree that seeing a couple kiss each other is fine but draw the line at a full lip lock, now apply that to two men in a full mouth to mouth kiss on the street. It is a given that most will react with disgust, disapproval and with condemnation. Why...chances are they personally don't show affection to a large degree in public themselves. It seems that we all subconsciously impose our sense of morality onto others even when we consciously try to respect another's right. It is human nature to judge what isn't the norm because it is not within our own defined sense of right or not right. No it isn't the norm to see a person wearing a collar in public and being lead on a leash, yet even though I may personally find that weird....I also have to at least respect that couple's right to be who they are. I may not have "consented" to witness their dynamic yet is an issue which is too trivial to bother about.

kiwisub12 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 3:58:23 PM)
over 10 years ago, Bob Hope made a tv special in Australia. It couldn't be shown in the US - because the women were wearing thong bikinis. So, yes, the US is a lot more prudish than other places - and i don't think it is that the individuals are so much more "moral" than the rest of the world. It seems to be something to do with the public face of the population. The politicos in charge of morals think the individuals are much more innocent than they themselves are, and legislate accordingly. Of course, these are the same people that think sex is worse than violence in movies. Maybe Americans haven't hit the level of sophistocation needed to accept, with aquanimity, sexual behaviour in public. Of course, maybe they don't want to. Maybe they won't ever be comfortable with individuals being served fresh urine as a precursor to dinner, or seeing a grown woman beating a cowering man with a cane. Maybe it was a big step forward to being able to seeing a woman in a string bikini on tv without fainting or writing to the editor in outrage. I have a feeling that public tolerance of odd behaviour takes a while to build.

justme1980 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 4:35:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SlyStone If you go out in public, you accept an unspoken waiver to be exposed to anything not explicitly illegal...and sometimes you even get exposed to the illegal. Being offended by mutually consensual human interaction in public is no excuse to treat the participators as the problem when it actually lies in the perceiver. See I disagree, in no way do I feel that the concept of consensuality is somehow a mandate to behave as you please in public. A crack whore giving a blow job on the street to her consensually participating john is not ok by me, and I dont want to live in a society where it is. But the reality is that the police cannot be everywhere and so there is a good chance if you are willing to risk the consequences of running into your boss or if you don't care about freaking out a child or offending that nice old couple out on their evening stroll, the odds are you can get away with just about anything in public if it really matters to you. I would only point out that it is one thing to talk about the world as if it was a theoretical laboratory and it is quite another to live in it, as we all must do. For myself, I am not going to walk into a restaunt with my breast bared, I am not going to jump on to of the table and provide a strip show nor am I going to shove any part of my anatomy in the face or crotch of anyother restraunt client. Now I may wear kink attire, I may look like a slut, I may wear a collar or chains and cuffs I may eat out of a dog bowl but I am within my own space when I enter that booth. I do not look at other patrons and I do not force them to look at me. I am not looking to make a specticule of myself. I do not care enough about other patrons to waste my time, energy and emotions to schock, embarrass , or otherwise annoy. As far as the "little people" I think that if the adults do not make a specticule, the "little person" will go back to his toys without paying much mind I often wonder why people so desperately seek the approval of their peers, even to the point of denying itheir envolvement in the lifestyle. I understand that the need to be discrete when it comes to things that relate to employment and I understand that completely. I think that if the vanilla populas was actually shown what we do, see that we educate, that we practice ssc so that we may be viewed in a different light Right now they really don't know much about us, or when they do, it is associated with something evil. I beleve they might think is that all we do whip one another until we bleed. I believe they need to be given an opportunity to see that isn't true

littlesarbonn -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 4:40:56 PM)
My first owner was very good at figuring out the public whenever she wanted to do something bdsm-wise in a public setting. She was a professional dominant, so she was often doing very public scenes, but we were in a non professional relationship, and she knew that there are certain things you could and couldn't do. I was very fortunate to have been with her at that time in my life. One of our first "outings" was on my birthday when she took me out to dinner. The waitress was the only witness to anything happening, and at one point my mistress had me leave the table and retrieve something for her, and during this time I assume she was speaking to the young, pretty waitress. After that, my mistress did very blatant things in front of her that revealed our very strict relationship. The waitress would normally just smile and act as if it wasn't even something to acknowledge. I think that sort of connection with the "audience" is important because it is a behavior that not everyone agrees with. And the last thing I'd ever want to be involved in is some kind of altercation with some "inflamed" customer in a restaurant who feels this behavior is intruding on his space. Personally, I wish that everything was okay in social contexts, but unfortunately we don't live in that kind of society yet. But I do emphasize "yet".

JonnieBoy -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 4:41:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild I may not have "consented" I kissed you (it seemed "consensual" ) when we met Bear (looks like we're safe from being "uncles" ... and not directly related to R.S. ... at least just yet ... even though that is inevitable) ... who is the judge of that ? I know ! ... It's either A GOD ... ... ... or ... ME ! (am I developing into the messiah complex or did I really meet the "Chosen One" ... !!! ) You know well I'm VERY intolerant over certain things and especially the gratuitous bull shit (ref:phrasebook) that vermin bring here out of mockery. I hope you will join me in wishing them all happiness. Pirate (founding the "bear went wild" Bear protection "Crew")

SlyStone -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 5:56:33 PM)
I may wear a collar or chains and cuffs I may eat out of a dog bowl but I am within my own space when I enter that booth. I do not look at other patrons and I do not force them to look at me. I am not looking to make a specticule of myself. I do not care enough about other patrons to waste my time, energy and emotions to schock, embarrass , or otherwise annoy. I think that if the vanilla populas was actually shown what we do, see that we educate, that we practice ssc so that we may be viewed in a different light Right now they really don't know much about us, or when they do, it is associated with something evil. I beleve they might think is that all we do whip one another until we bleed. I believe they need to be given an opportunity to see that isn't true I don't think they have an image of us, whoever us is, whipping each other until we bleed, but I do think if given a choice between that and having to watch you eat slop out of a dog bowl while out for a family dinner, they would pick the whip and bleed scenario every time.

variation30 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 6:48:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DemonKia One is exhibiting ones kink stuff in front of a non-consenting audience, & the other is restricting those displays to a consenting audience heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere we go.

justme1980 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 8:16:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SlyStone I may wear a collar or chains and cuffs I may eat out of a dog bowl but I am within my own space when I enter that booth. I do not look at other patrons and I do not force them to look at me. I am not looking to make a specticule of myself. I do not care enough about other patrons to waste my time, energy and emotions to schock, embarrass , or otherwise annoy. I think that if the vanilla populas was actually shown what we do, see that we educate, that we practice ssc so that we may be viewed in a different light Right now they really don't know much about us, or when they do, it is associated with something evil. I beleve they might think is that all we do whip one another until we bleed. I believe they need to be given an opportunity to see that isn't true Funny thing about the head, it turns so they may talk to the people they came with and not worry about I may or may not be doing I don't think they have an image of us, whoever us is, whipping each other until we bleed, but I do think if given a choice between that and having to watch you eat slop out of a dog bowl while out for a family dinner, they would pick the whip and bleed scenario every time. For me, BDSM is mainly about having fun, and an opportunity to explore our kinks and our sexuality in a safe environment without judgment , reprisal or recrimination. My goal as a Dominant is to always retain my capacity for empathy. LOOK FAMILIAR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arpig -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 8:44:38 PM)
Personally I don't really have a problem with people doing the sorts of things listed in the OP. I doubt I would engage in many of them, just not really my kink (though leading a girl on a leash in public is kinda hot[;)]). I don't really buy into the "the public didn't consent" arguement either. I never consented to having a couple of teenagers suck face in front of me and my UMs, but for some reason that doesn't seem to matter. I say as long as no law is being broken then go for it, and to be 100% honest I probably wouldn't give a shit if some morality/public decency laws were broken. I am pretty open minded and do not believe that seeing such things will actually harm anybody, and I include UMs in that anybody. It may upset their sensibilities, but it won't harm them, in fact it might even do them a bit of good to have their horizons broadened.

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:07:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch if my offspring are with me, as long as there is: 1. no showing/touching of anyone's genitalia; 2. no foul language (includes sexual language) ie: nothing that would cause me to have to have a birds and the bees talk with my offspring. I am fine with whatever, walking on a leash, gags, whatever.. Gives me an opening to discuss being accepting of other's differences with my kids. While I'd probably agree with you here, allow me to be "argumentative" for a bit. [:D] Isn't the reason we would discount verbal obscenities and the visibility of genitalia based on the very same moral compass anyone else judges other unacceptable things? The genitals are an interesting topic because that argument has been used by some as a means to "cover up"historic pieces of art in order to "protect" children from depictions of those genitals. Agreed. And I am not one who would ever feel it necessary to protect my kids from depictions of genitalia as art. But then again, that would be my choice whether to expose them to such things. I just don't need to see some chick's hoo haa or some random dude's saggy ass or sack swinging in the breeze. If it were commonplace that would be different. In Europe where topless beaches are the norm, little boys aren't phased by the sight of multiple mammaries and silly debates about whether breastfeeding is acceptable in polite society don't occur. When American kids visit those same beaches it's obviously a different story. quote: I'm not saying we all don't invariably draw our personal lines somewhere...but it's all based on the same faulty scale, IMO. The only hard line I keep coming back to is the direct physical harming of another person or their property by my "displays". Why do you feel you could comfortable talk about leashes and collars with you child and not the existence of, say, breasts? LOL.. Believe me, my kids know about the existence of breasts. It's just that if they were exposed to a couple in public behaving in a sexual way (someone's hand(s) on another's breasts, for example) that would essentially force me into a situation where I have to discuss a very sensitive topic with them without being able to prepare myself, that would just fucking piss me off. They know that their friends who went abroad this summer will be on a topless beach. Sure there were alot of giggles and twitters, but the less of a big deal I make of it, the less of a big deal they will make of it. Leashes and collars I would find some very basic explanation for. Most probably that it is just the way some grown ups choose to live. I would get around their astonishment by being very calm and blase' about it. I have diffused much more sensitive topics with them by being both forthcoming and matter of fact.

SlyStone -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:14:48 PM)
A safe environment works both ways Sherlock, both for you and for Grandma and the kids who don't want or need to see you slop down puppy chow out of a dog bowl at a public restaurant anymore than they need to see a vanilla couple fucking. Understanding that takes a certain level of maturity and the empathy to know when your behavior is causing distress or harm and giving a shit that it does. So perhaps now that you have miraculously recovered that eye that you lost getting whipped, you can now see that to be true, but I doubt it.

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:26:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leonidas I will make compromises, from time to time, out of respect for the sensitivities of my neighbors, regardless whether I think those sensitivities are backward, or not. I think that's called maturity. I don't know that willingly choosing to manacle my freedoms for the taste of others who can't morally handle it (even if they are people I care about) qualifies as "maturity" so much as "superfluous courtesy that may have some sensible reasoning".

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:30:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SlyStone Understanding that takes a certain level of maturity and the empathy to know when your behavior is causing distress or harm and giving a shit that it does. The "harm" that comes from someone's chosen morality being irritated because of it's restrictive bias is only a phantom "harm".

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:38:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch If it were commonplace that would be different. quote: ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch It's just that if they were exposed to a couple in public behaving in a sexual way (someone's hand(s) on another's breasts, for example) that would essentially force me into a situation where I have to discuss a very sensitive topic with them without being able to prepare myself, that would just fucking piss me off. I've intentionally quoted two separate snippets of your last post to try and tie an idea together (so if you feel they're being used out of context in this way, do let me know). So...based on the two excerpts, are we really just saying that the reason a topic is "sensitive" (thereby making it something that would piss you off to have to discuss unprepared) pretty much simply based on the fact that it's not "commonplace"? I mean...it's one thing to understand the silliness of it and still admit that (as human creatures of habit and folly) we still act and react according to our geocultural customs, but, at the same time, we know the disparity between the common and uncommon is silly.

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:49:20 PM)
Just for the record, I am NOT the parent who is oblivious to their offspring's obnoxious behavior, I am very conscious of the way they behave and if for some reason they are misbehaving, in public or not, I take appropriate action. That being said, let anyone, ANYONE, try and give me shit about them, or G-d Forbid, give them shit and they are going to go crying home to their own Mama! ********************************************************* quote: ORIGINAL: Bella1965 On a side note. If I find behavior offensive, I distance myself from it or look elsewhere. That is also a right. However, if I'm in a restaurant or some other public venue where I'm paying for a service or product, I do not tolerate screaming brats or public nudity, even for breast feeding. If a pointed look is insufficient, I will politely ask said individuals to cease and desist. No one needs to be subjected to rudeness when they are shelling out funds for satisfaction. Bella, Good for you that you do not tolerate screaming brats in public. You can give me as many POINTED LOOKS as you care to. I'll smile and wave back. However, if you were to walk up to me at said public venue (where by the way,I TOO am paying for a service or product) , and have the utter gall to try and tell me to "cease and desist" from breast feeding because it offends you, you just may get a face full of breast milk yourself. Uh, if you don't like it, GETTHEFUCKOUT! Who died and declared YOUR RIGHTS more important than mine?

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