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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 12:45:36 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sylvia Allen is, thankfully, an Arizona State Senator not US Senator.

As to the 6000 year age of the Earth claim it is the standard claim by less sophisticated young earth creationists. It is based on an erroneoius calculation of the time span supposedly recorded in the Old Testament by Bishop Ussher in the 17th century.


Sorry...  OP will be edited.


OP can not be edited there is a time frame.

According to the bible the calculation is not flawed.  It is simple to arrive at this conclusion the Sylvia arrived at.  All one needs to do is trace the presented genealogy which is not debatable or ambiguous

E


< Message edited by Esinn -- 7/14/2009 12:50:05 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 12:52:50 PM   
maestro365


Posts: 4
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline 		To focus upon the 6000 year mark is to begin with a conclusion - and since you already have the conclusion, what is the point of the exercise?

If one desires a reasonable answer to a question, one must first generate a well formed question - then identify the contributing variables - then search for pertinent evidence - then assess the quality and quantity of that evidence - only then may an informed opinion about any conclusion be reached with any degree of confidence (I said 'degree of confidence', not 'certainty', a critical distinction).

Yet this process will not yield Truth - note that we have a Theory of gravity, a Theory of electromagnitism, a Theory of time, a Theory of plate tectonics, and yes, a Theory of evolution. Science does not yield proof, and has no capacity to do so. To expect otherwise demonstrates misunderstanding of the process (and who says we don't need more science in school?); namely, statistical analysis based upon probability (nitwit weathermen who 'predict' a 100% chance of precipitation, notwithstanding). As strong as the desire may be, we do not deal in Certainty - sorry about that, folks ... deal with it.

So, does this lack of certainty leave the door open to half-baked ideas? You bet it does. And half-baked minds will always be susceptible to them. How else may we distinguish those who think from those who don't, and/or those who let others do their thinking for them?

To cite ancient and unsystematically gathered opinion as evidence demonstrates a misunderstanding of what constitutes evidence. As wise as many humans have been throughout history, I have trouble with the validity of geologic interpretation from people who didn't understand earthquakes, volcanoes, tides, seasons, or even rain. I have geology texts that predate the acceptance of plate tectonics; I remember when the jet stream was introduced to evening weather maps (more as a poorly understood novelty than driving mechanism of major weather systems). We have come a long way, and have much further yet to go. Let us revel in our brilliance even as we acknowledge our humility.

Remember the fundamental principle: the Quantity and the Quality of the evidence determine how Reasonable the answer may be.

(in reply to estah)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 12:56:16 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Fair enough estah. I have made my opinion of this asinine idea clear enough already, and I really don't give a rat's ass where the idea comes from, nor who should get credit for it, so I will wish you all a happy debate.

No throwing sand!!



This is not a topic which is really up for debate.  The evidence from every peer reviewed scientist living on earth  is available for anyone to review.  There may be 10-30 'qualified' people across the country who disagree with the existing data/experiments/evidence and information based upon their personal superstition.  However, until they are able to substantiate their claim, the earth is 6,000 years old, with coherent peer reviewed experiments the idea is simply a crack pot idea based on a religious superstition.

(in reply to Arpig)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 1:00:58 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

The 6000 years as the age of the earth comes from the Jewish belief, atleast from their timeline from the making of the Earth until today. It is not something calculated by a bishop or even started by the christian. Have a look at the Hebrew calender and you would be able to find this out. The age said by the Jews was calculated even before the Christian belief existed.

estah


Where do you think the Hebrew calendar came from?  How do you think they arrived at this conclusion? Did it fall from the sky - no.... Studying genealogy of the Pentateuch and remaining books in the OT.

(in reply to estah)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 1:07:50 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

Greetings DomKen,

                             The idea of YEC gots its name later but the original concept is older the Ussher and after it saw a deline in the 18th century the revival that it has experienced since the start of the 20th century is thanks to the rise in Fundamentalist Christianity...which mainly takes evidence from the works of Seventh Day Adventists such as White, Price and Morris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism
http://www.conservapedia.com/Young_earth_creationism
http://www.nwcreation.net/ageyoung.html
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Young_earth_creationism
On this a a large majority of YEC sites do not accredit any person with their belief but base it on evidence found in the bible. There is a few references to Ussher (as well as a number of other people) but he is never directly or even indirectly accredited with the concept (which existed even in the time of Bebe, who was born in 672/673 and died in 735). Considering that the idea of YEC existed before the time of Ussher it is hard to give a man credit for something the was around before his birth. Although I do admit that the timeline of Ussher was in the KJV of the bible, you also need to note this a bible used only by the Anglican church, and a large majority of Anglicans do not believe in YEC . The timeline is used in the version of the bible due to the fact that Ussher was in high standing with King James. You also need to note it was only included in the annotated editions of the KJV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology



Take any manuscript we have today that claims to be coherent with a grain of salt.
http://www.abmc.org/ (PDF versions can be ordered here I believe).

Israeli women who are partially 'Americanized' are sexy as hell.  Since we were going off topic I figured I would too!

(in reply to estah)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 1:10:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
According to the bible the calculation is not flawed.  It is simple to arrive at this conclusion the Sylvia arrived at.  All one needs to do is trace the presented genealogy which is not debatable or ambiguous

Actually it is. Read the Talmudic discussions of the matter.

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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 3:43:14 PM   
DemonKia


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From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		FR, after read thru, & a very entertaining read thru it was

All I can add is a Bill Hicks quote, which means I must:



“Dinosaur fossils? God put those there to test our faith."

Thank God I'm strapped in right now here man. I think God put you here to test my faith, Dude. You believe that?

"Uh huh."

Does that trouble anyone here? The idea that God.. might be...fuckin' with our heads? I have trouble sleeping with that knowledge. Some prankster God running around: "Hu hu ho. We will see who believes in me now, ha HA.” - Bill Hicks


_____________________________

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The Verbossinator

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 3:47:29 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

FR, after read thru, & a very entertaining read thru it was

All I can add is a Bill Hicks quote, which means I must:



“Dinosaur fossils? God put those there to test our faith."

Thank God I'm strapped in right now here man. I think God put you here to test my faith, Dude. You believe that?

"Uh huh."

Does that trouble anyone here? The idea that God.. might be...fuckin' with our heads? I have trouble sleeping with that knowledge. Some prankster God running around: "Hu hu ho. We will see who believes in me now, ha HA.” - Bill Hicks


For some real mind bending theology you can investigate omphalism. In short it is the belief that god created theuniverse with the appearance of great age. Apparently to fool everyone.

(in reply to DemonKia)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 4:10:15 PM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		I just find it rather ironic...

There she is, arguing about using uranium ore in order to benefit AZ's economy. And she uses the Earth's (alleged) 6,000 year age as an example of why doing so would be perfectly safe. Yet, part of the reason we KNOW that the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, is due to the steady decay rate of.... (you probably guessed it) ... uranium ore. A.k.a.: carbon dating.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... the ore is perfectly safe. Until you process it. Then you have TONS of radioactive by product that you have to safely store... otherwise, it can end up leaking into the water table... or become dust that you could end up breathing.

If she doesn't have enough intelligence to realize that her RELIGION is way off on a few facts, then how can the good people of AZ trust her decisions on bringing in potentially leathal materials into their state, as defined by SCIENCE?

"Oh, my religion says that this toxic waste is perfecty harmless, so we can build a lake of it just a few miles away from the Capitol city... after all, my religion says that the Earth has survived far worse things, like plauges of frogs falling from the sky, or rivers turning to blood... so these toxic wastes should be a walk in the park. (and I can earn a kickback of a few grand a year from the storage company) My interpretation of the Bible tells me this is a FACT."

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 5:51:52 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


For some real mind bending theology you can investigate omphalism. In short it is the belief that god created theuniverse with the appearance of great age. Apparently to fool everyone.


Not particularly mindbending. It is just a reassertion that an omnipotent god can do anything, and it is impossible to disprove her existence.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 5:58:41 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


For some real mind bending theology you can investigate omphalism. In short it is the belief that god created theuniverse with the appearance of great age. Apparently to fool everyone.


Not particularly mindbending. It is just a reassertion that an omnipotent god can do anything, and it is impossible to disprove her existence.

Yeah if you like a deity that lies to you about everything. I'm sure you can get into worshipping that deity. As a matter of fact it might explain a few things about your behavior.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 7:16:16 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: estah
Just because people believe something different to us does not make them wrong and us right

I completely agree with you on this first part of your statement. However this: http://gorightly.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/jesus_and_the_dinosaurs.jpg  is wrong not because of a belief but because of reality.


(in reply to estah)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 8:24:20 PM   
DemonKia


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From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Yep. But it's funny how so many believers don't wanna believe the logical conclusions that can be drawn from their version of the 'literal word of God' . . . .

Personally, if I wanna imbibe of wacky beliefs I'm big on solipsism, lol . . .. . But at least I'm sort of a self-aware asshole in that scenario . . . .



quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

For some real mind bending theology you can investigate omphalism. In short it is the belief that god created theuniverse with the appearance of great age. Apparently to fool everyone.


(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 8:30:01 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Yep. But it's funny how so many believers don't wanna believe the logical conclusions that can be drawn from their version of the 'literal word of God' . . . .

Personally, if I wanna imbibe of wacky beliefs I'm big on solipsism, lol . . .. . But at least I'm sort of a self-aware asshole in that scenario . . . .



But if you're a mad god alone in the universe then I'm a figment of your imagination and I like being real :(

(in reply to DemonKia)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 8:31:03 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Yep. But it's funny how so many believers don't wanna believe the logical conclusions that can be drawn from their version of the 'literal word of God' . . . .


Not all of us. I can pretty faithfully accept omphalism, predestination, and a flat-earth all at once. It just means I know I'm going to hell. :)

(in reply to DemonKia)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 9:00:07 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

Arpig normally I would agree but when it comes to faith, I do not think it is for anyone to tell another they are wrong or to judge them, regardless of how crazy their ideas seem to us.

estah



I completely disagree with this, at some point we as a society should step in and prevent a persons beliefs from harming others: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qt7puJR4IA&NR=1

When it comes to our elected officials, we need to judge them on their positions, beliefs, character, etc in order to decide how to cast our vote. So yes we should judge our politicians, it's inherent in our system of government. When a politician gets up and basically says not to worry about polluting, god won't let climate change happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DJYZVMpLSg   Should we really accept or ignore that he's making policy decisions that effect all of us based on a wacky interpretation of bronze age superstition? His beliefs effect his decisions, so how could we not judge our politicians on their beliefs?

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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/14/2009 10:35:30 PM   
DemonKia


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From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		FR

DomKen & Ialdabaoth, you two crack me up . . . . .

DomKen: I did say it's a wacky belief, lol . . . . . & I only indulge on alternating Sundays, the rest of the time I'm just a garden-variety secular-humanist-hard-materialist-atheist-buddhist-taoist-with-streaks-of-occasional-animism, lol . . . . .

& Ialdabaoth: I pretty much am inclined to think that if there is such a thing as hell, we're already there . . . . . & the weather's better than the reports claimed, lol . . . . .

Ah. & since y'all gave me a good funny, here's one in return (you might have seen this one already, DomKen):

Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. - Scott D. Weitzenhoffer

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/15/2009 3:38:50 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Point of order - the World may be only 6000 years old, depending on what one considers mankind to be; ie who's in and who's out based on a timeline in this case (the same division can be effected by a number of methods).

The Earth is much older as has been pointed out, according to that pesky thing evidence.

The World and the Earth are not the same thing - if the World ended tomorrow the Earth could continue unaffected (probably relieved if there is any conciousness there).

However I doubt such discrepancies will mean much to someone who bases policy on ideas originated when the World was much smaller and less sophisticated.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/15/2009 4:05:33 AM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		I got into this argument... discussion ..... thing.... with a number of Christians a few years ago. They all swore by the 6000 year number. I asked if they would shut up if I could show them 7000 more years in the bible. I pointed out that god created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th according to Genesis. Later it says that a day to god is as a thousand years. 7 times 1000 is 7000. They stopped arguing and we had a nice day.
Do I believe that? Nope. But it as valid as their calculations. To this day my brother has not been willing to renew that "discussion" because it makes his brain hurt to think that I may be right.

Its hard to prove a "biblical truth" to someone who doesn't believe the bible when your only evidence is the bible. When proving something to one who believes it to be the inspired word of god, you need no other evidence.

_____________________________

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Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

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RE: Proof The World Is 6,000 Years Old - End Game - 7/15/2009 4:24:29 AM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Point of order - the World may be only 6000 years old, depending on what one considers mankind to be; ie who's in and who's out based on a timeline in this case (the same division can be effected by a number of methods).

The Earth is much older as has been pointed out, according to that pesky thing evidence.

The World and the Earth are not the same thing - if the World ended tomorrow the Earth could continue unaffected (probably relieved if there is any conciousness there).

However I doubt such discrepancies will mean much to someone who bases policy on ideas originated when the World was much smaller and less sophisticated.

E


That, to me, seems the point here.  We are talking about two different things.  The earth and the world.  If you (everyone else) wants to make this a religious thing, that's their perogative.  I doubt the cosmos care, either.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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