RE: HEALTH CARE (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:40:56 AM)

quote:

The Effects of Health Reform Legislation beyond the Next Decade
In this year’s discussion of health reform, many people have put forth the goals of “bending the curve” of the federal budgetary commitment to health care, the federal budget deficit, or overall national health expenditures. Accordingly, Members of Congress are asking CBO to analyze the extent to which different health reform proposals meet these goals. Last month we wrote to Senator Conrad and Senator Gregg: “CBO does not provide formal cost estimates beyond the 10-year budget window because the uncertainties are simply too great. However, in evaluating proposals to reform health care, the agency will endeavor to offer a qualitative indication of whether they would be more likely to increase or decrease the budget deficit over the long term.” Let me explain our methodology for doing this and the limits of that methodology, beginning with the federal budget and then concluding with national health spending.

The health reform proposals being discussed this year generally include many specific changes to tax and spending policies. Although we and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation base our 10-year estimates of the budgetary effects of reform proposals on detailed examination of these changes, we cannot realistically conduct longer-term analysis at that level of detail. Therefore, we group the changes in a reform proposal into several broad categories and evaluate the rate at which the budgetary impact of each of those broad categories is likely to increase over time. Some elements of reform proposals, such as subsidies for people who purchase insurance through exchanges, tend to grow roughly in line with health care costs, although the allocation of those growing costs between enrollees and the government can push the growth rate somewhat higher or lower. Other elements of some proposals, like tax increases unrelated to health care, would generally grow along with increases in taxable incomes, although we aim to take into account specific aspects of legislation that can raise or lower that rate. Still other parts of proposals, such as changes in Medicare and Medicaid payment rates or practices, can have effects that increase at a range of rates at different points in time depending on the nature and extent of the changes. For all of these parts of reform proposals, we evaluate the impact of the legislation as written and do not assess the likelihood that policies will be changed later through subsequent legislation.

After we have developed an estimate of the growth rate of the costs or savings in each broad category, we assess how those costs or savings would evolve from the end of the 10-year budget window through the following decade. The result is a very approximate sense of whether a piece of legislation is increasing or decreasing the federal budgetary commitment to health care or the federal budget deficit during the second decade and at the end of that decade.

We are very reluctant to extend these extrapolations further into the future, because the uncertainties surrounding them magnify considerably. Although we publish projections of the federal budget 75 years ahead, those projections are inherently uncertain and are designed to identify broad trends rather than to reflect specific pieces of legislation. Trying to project several decades ahead not just the evolution of the health care system under current law but also the effects on that system of a particular comprehensive and interacting set of reforms is extremely difficult. One particular challenge is that our long-term projections under current law incorporate changes that we expect would be made by state governments and the private sector in response to the growing burden of health care spending (responses which could occur under current federal law). Because that burden will mount over time, the responses will likely increase in intensity as well; as a result, determining whether reforms proposed in current legislation might ultimately have occurred through the actions of these other agents becomes increasingly complicated as the time horizon lengthens. Indeed, our Panel of Health Advisers has encouraged us to focus on estimating the effects of legislation during the next couple of decades and not to attempt to estimate effects further out.

So, how do we evaluate whether certain health reform proposals “bend the curve” in terms of the federal budgetary commitment to health care or the federal budget deficit? And what does “bend the curve” mean? If the projected budget deficit is lower 20 years from now under a reform proposal than it would be without any policy changes, then that curve is clearly being bent downward, on average, during the next twenty years; if the projected deficit is higher, then that curve is being bent upward. Would those downward or upward trajectories continue indefinitely? That sort of extrapolation might seem natural, but we simply cannot tell whether it is appropriate. Although we think we can provide a rough indication of the level of federal health spending or the budget deficit 20 years ahead, we are not confident that we have an analytic basis for projecting their growth rates at that point, much less for evaluating whether those growth rates will continue in future years. Therefore, we are more confident talking about whether proposals would “lower” or “raise” the curve of the federal budget deficit or budgetary commitment to health care 10 to 20 years from now than we are discussing the shape of the curve in that time period or the level or slope of the curve beyond that period.

CBO does not analyze national health expenditures (NHE) as closely as we analyze the federal budget (although we are working to enhance our capabilities in this area). Accordingly, we cannot provide precise quantitative estimates of the effect of health reform proposals on NHE even within the first 10 years. However, we will try to offer a qualitative indication of whether proposals would be more likely to raise or lower NHE during the next couple of decades. Expanding insurance coverage would raise NHE, because insured people generally receive more medical care than do uninsured people (see CBO’s Key Issues in Analyzing Major Health Insurance Proposals, December 2008, pages 71-76). Yet, the increase in NHE would be much smaller than the increase in federal spending because some of that additional spending represents a shift in costs from other payers to the government (for example, new subsidies for people who would have purchased insurance anyway). At the same time, changes in Medicare or Medicaid that reduce federal spending and do not merely shift health costs to other payers would generally reduce NHE. For specific pieces of legislation, we will try our best to provide a very approximate sense of balance between these two opposing forces.

In sum, as health reform legislation is considered by the Congress, CBO will endeavor to offer a qualitative indication of whether certain legislation would be more likely to increase or decrease the federal budgetary commitment to health care, the federal budget deficit, and national health expenditures in the decade beyond the 10-year budget window. Whether these effects would persist in more-distant decades is not clear, and that uncertainty is an inherent feature of policy changes that could have substantial effects on such a large and growing share of the U.S. economy.

This entry was posted on Friday, July 24th, 2009 at 3:59 pm and is filed under Budget Projections, Health, Long-Term Budgetary Issues.

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=336

i will leave you to read and discuss these two among yourselves. lol... brunch out with Master sounds more intriguing than dealing with "some" this morning




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 9:25:27 AM)


That report is from whitehouse.gov, or essentially the desk of Barack Obama - hardly the epitome of unbiased news sources.

Basically a campaign ad, paid for by the taxpayers.





Lorr47 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 9:38:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Saturday, July 25th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
CBO and IMAC
Peter R. Orszag, Director

This morning, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) analyzed proposals to shift more decision-making out of politics and toward a body like the Independent Medicare Advisory Council (IMAC) put forward by the Administration. CBO noted that this type of approach could lead to significant long-term savings in federal spending on health care and that the available evidence implies that a substantial share of spending on health care contributes little, if anything, to the overall health of the nation. This supports what President Obama has said all along: we can reduce waste and unnecessary spending without reducing quality of care and benefits.

In part because legislation under consideration already includes substantial savings in Medicare over the next decade, CBO found modest additional medium-term savings from this proposal -- $2 billion over 10 years. The point of the proposal, however, was never to generate savings over the next decade. (Indeed, under the Administration’s approach, the IMAC system would not even begin to make recommendations until 2015.) Instead, the goal is to provide a mechanism for improving quality of care for beneficiaries and reducing costs over the long term. In other words, in the terminology of our belt-and-suspenders approach to a fiscally responsible health reform, the IMAC is a game changer not a scoreable offset.

With regard to the long-term impact, CBO suggested that the proposal, with several specific tweaks that would strengthen its operations, could generate significant savings. (The potential modifications included items such as providing mandatory funding for the council, rather than having the council rely on the annual appropriations cycle, and requiring independent verification of the expected reductions in program spending rather than relying only on the Medicare actuaries for such verification, along with other suggestions, such as including an across-the-board reduction in payments as a fallback mechanism if the council did not produce proposals that generated adequate savings.) And if you look back at recent history, one can see why an empowered advisory council would be useful. For example, for the better part of this decade, MedPAC has recommended reducing overpayments to insurance companies for Medicare Advantage plans – to equate those payments with the cost of covering the same beneficiary under traditional Medicare. Yet, nothing happened, costing taxpayers tens of billions of dollars. We can’t afford that type of inertia.

The bottom line is that it is very rare for CBO to conclude that a specific legislative proposal would generate significant long-term savings so it is noteworthy that, with some modifications, CBO reached such a conclusion with regard to the IMAC concept.

A final note is worth underscoring. As a former CBO director, I can attest that CBO is sometimes accused of a bias toward exaggerating costs and underestimating savings. Unfortunately, parts of today’s analysis from CBO could feed that perception. For example, and without specifying precisely how the various modifications would work, CBO somehow concluded that the council could "eventually achieve annual savings equal to several percent of Medicare spending...[which] would amount to tens of billions of dollars per year after 2019." Such savings are welcome (and rare!), but it is also the case that (for good reason) CBO has restricted itself to qualitative, not quantitative, analyses of long-term effects from legislative proposals. In providing a quantitative estimate of long-term effects without any analytical basis for doing so, CBO seems to have overstepped.



http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/09/07/25/CBOandIMAC/


IMAC is what had the CEO of Mayo's Clinic so enthusiastic several weeks ago when the concept was apparently suggested by the White House.




Lorr47 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 9:39:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Not in the least. That wasn't criticism, true criticism is far more cerebral than that. Words such as those reflect far more poorly on the one using them than the party they are aimed at.

Regarding Republicans mischaracterizing some vague thing, do you have any specifics? Or are you just randomly throwing out accusations along with your name calling, in hopes that something sticks.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
I am not worried about health care reform because the more republicans mis characterize the facts the more likely republicans will get caught.  Did I hurt your feeling by criticizing republicans?




After trying to understand your 10:56 post I have come to the conclusion that we do not live in the same country.  If I understand you, your argument against health care reform is that the so called system in the US is perfectly alright; that the present system allows choice and decisions are made on the basis of your worth as a human being.

Your feeling is that the reform will reduced us to cattle; have decisions made on cost rather than on the principled criteria currently in use; and  will allow no choice etc.

We could never debate.  Our perception of reality is totally out of sync.





Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 9:53:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

That's funny. Every fact that leaks out about how awful this bill is the fault of someone else. Anyone who tells the truth about this legislative train wreck has to be a lying Republican...

What a hoot.

Look - the Congressional Budget Office is completely nonpartisan - check their figures. As written, Obamacare will add $1.3 trillion to the deficit over the next ten years.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10430/House_Tri-Committee-Rangel.pdf

If people are wary about the costs it's because they have the facts.

Republicans aren't the ones who are lying...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
If people are wary of the costs as you say it's because Republicans are lying about it, that's the main reason.




big deal! George Bush added $1 trillion to the deficit in one year with his stupid war and tax cuts for the rich. I want healthcare reform, real healthcare reform like Howard Dean described.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 9:57:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Look at the mess California is in.

Deficits matter.

We can't just spend and spend and spend and spend, and pretend that its going to be okay. At some point we have to begin acting like adults, and ask where is the money going to come from.

Look at the deficits now. This bill will add to those deficits - that's a real problem.

And name the last government program that spent less than was forecast?




all the other industrialized countries in the world can afford it and the United States cannot? The United States, the wealthiest country in the world by far can afford it. It's about time they started spending on healthcare and not on war.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:00:59 AM)

Why don't you tell it to your hero Dick Cheney that deficits matter? He is the one when he was vice president started this garbage that deficits don't matter. When they want to spend money on war that's when deficits don't matter.




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:04:41 AM)


If you are going to reply to a given post, why not reply to THAT post? Why reply to one that comes much later...

Here's the post you claim to be having difficulty with:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Its funny that you should mention the Patriot Act because the biggest beef I have with this end run the Dems are making towards nationalized health care is how it gives the government more control over me and every other citizen - total control over our health care, essentially over our bodies, if they ever get to what they're truly aiming at.

Now, if you don't like your doctor or your provider you can switch. They have to treat you like you matter, because you have choices.

Under Orwelliancare, you'd be cattle moving through the system. Anyone too old or too feeble wouldn't qualify for many procedures because the payoff would be deemed too small, the cost-to-benefit ratio wouldn't add up according to tables they would keep on such matters.

Have to keep costs down, you know.

And nicotine use and other drug use would obviously come under tighter government control.

Anyone found to be obese might have to submit to various government programs in order to remain eligible for further Obamacare. Off to the fat farm with you, for free mandatory government reeducation regarding diet and exercise.

And so on.

Yeah, you thought the power given to government in the Patriot Act was bad - just wait til they get this, and then they get to see you in their examining room.

"Turn your head and go, "moo".


quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

It's funny how they don't have time to read "this" bill but had no problem voting on the Patriot Act without reading it and pushed it through so very very fast








Now, where did I claim that anything is perfect?

I didn't, that's a red herring.

Right now, I have a choice, and so does most every other American. Some may piss their choices away by becoming brain-addled addicts or otherwise choosing self destructive paths, but most Americans who have chosen to apply themselves through work and study currently have many very good healthcare choices.

You don't like your doctor because he's a jerk? Tell him to go fuck himself, and find someone who has half a brain. Don't like your insurance? Switch providers, or find a company with better benefits.

Barney Frank admitted on camera what the goal of the left is - nationalized health care, wherein no one has a choice and decisions would of necessity be made on a cost basis. What other criteria do you think the faceless bureaucrats in charge would use? There is only so much money, and with "free healthcare" for everyone, if every tummy ache is good for a bottle of pain meds or if every bum knows a nose bleed is good for a night in the hospital with three squares a day, waitstaff, and a shower, what happens when the supply of "free" health care runs short?

Sacrifices
will have to be made.

One last thing - if as you say, our perception of reality is totally out of sync, that's a good thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
After trying to understand your 10:56 post I have come to the conclusion that we do not live in the same country.  If I understand you, your argument against health care reform is that the so called system in the US is perfectly alright; that the present system allows choice and decisions are made on the basis of your worth as a human being.

Your feeling is that the reform will reduced us to cattle; have decisions made on cost rather than on the principled criteria currently in use; and  will allow no choice etc.

We could never debate.  Our perception of reality is totally out of sync.






Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:07:14 AM)

Do you agree with Dick?

Deficits don't matter?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Why don't you tell it to your hero Dick Cheney that deficits matter? He is the one when he was vice president started this garbage that deficits don't matter. When they want to spend money on war that's when deficits don't matter.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:09:03 AM)

Here we go again with lies about government control over healthcare. Though you are really defending the control by corporations over our health care for profit. Nice it is that 8 million people have become uninsured because corporations got rid of covering them to increase their profits for Wall Street. That's what you are really defending. I think you need to listen to Wendell Potter that vice president from CIGNA insurance, if you haven't already, so you can really understand what you are defending. I may be wrong, but I don't think you watched it and I don't think you have a clue what you are defending. It doesn't make any sense your defending them unless you are employed by or involved with one of these insurance companies.




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:13:29 AM)


Brian, your argument is pure strawman.

I am "defending" no such thing.

There are positive changes which can be made, but nationalizing our nation's health care isn't anything positive, not in any way.

Care to try to debate against my actual words?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Here we go again with lies about government control over healthcare. Though you are really defending the control by corporations over our health care for profit. Nice it is that 8 million people have become uninsured because corporations got rid of covering them to increase their profits for Wall Street. That's what you are really defending. I think you need to listen to Wendell Potter that vice president from CIGNA insurance, if you haven't already, so you can really understand what you are defending. I may be wrong, but I don't think you watched it and I don't think you have a clue what you are defending. It doesn't make any sense your defending them unless you are employed by or involved with one of these insurance companies.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:15:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Oh, Jimmy Carter, the good old days. I remember them well. A defunct military, gas shortages, rampant inflation and interest rates nearing 17 %..A wonderful time in our history. He was a one term president for a reason.


he was actually a very good president and a lot of the problems he had to deal with were not his fault. Things happened that were out of his control. And if his policies had been allowed to remain over the long-term the United States would not be so dependent on imports of foreign oil today.




Lorr47 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:22:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Here we go again with lies about government control over healthcare. Though you are really defending the control by corporations over our health care for profit. Nice it is that 8 million people have become uninsured because corporations got rid of covering them to increase their profits for Wall Street. That's what you are really defending. I think you need to listen to Wendell Potter that vice president from CIGNA insurance, if you haven't already, so you can really understand what you are defending. I may be wrong, but I don't think you watched it and I don't think you have a clue what you are defending. It doesn't make any sense your defending them unless you are employed by or involved with one of these insurance companies.


Brain, He has been like this all morning.  Even worse than usual.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:23:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Do you agree with Dick?

Deficits don't matter?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Why don't you tell it to your hero Dick Cheney that deficits matter? He is the one when he was vice president started this garbage that deficits don't matter. When they want to spend money on war that's when deficits don't matter.


what do you think? Of course not. Let me make it perfectly clear. I do not agree with Dick Cheney or his daughter, Liz




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:25:08 AM)


You like Jimmuh Cottuh?

Well then - you're in luck, because we're essentially starting out on Carter's second term right now.

[sm=2cents.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Oh, Jimmy Carter, the good old days. I remember them well. A defunct military, gas shortages, rampant inflation and interest rates nearing 17 %..A wonderful time in our history. He was a one term president for a reason.


he was actually a very good president and a lot of the problems he had to deal with were not his fault. Things happened that were out of his control. And if his policies had been allowed to remain over the long-term the United States would not be so dependent on imports of foreign oil today.




Mercnbeth -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:25:43 AM)

quote:

he was actually a very good president and a lot of the problems he had to deal with were not his fault. Things happened that were out of his control.
Alreday writing the Obama legacy?




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:27:49 AM)


But you think Obama's "stimulus" trillions / cash for car giveaway / free health care budget-busting proposals are the bomb.

?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

what do you think? Of course not. Let me make it perfectly clear. I do not agree with Dick Cheney or his daughter, Liz





KissBye2UrFunds -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:28:20 AM)

i thought that any president who can tie his own shoelaces is considered 'a very good president' in america.....




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:29:33 AM)


'Morning Merc.

Good point... [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Alreday writing the Obama legacy?




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 10:31:05 AM)

Unfortunately, you don't realize it but you really are. If you have not watched Wendell Potter who was interviewed on Bill Moyers show on PBS, I think you really need to watch it and listen to what that man said. If you watch it I don't think we would be disagreeing with each other so much and the dialogue would move forward. I will see if I can find it again right now, that link.

I expect Congress to pass a bipartisan health-care bill this summer. Are we going to finally get a health care bill that’s good for the American people?


As per Bill Moyers,
With almost 20 years inside the health insurance industry, Wendell Potter saw for-profit insurers hijack our health care system and put profits before patients.



http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch.html



http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html


The biggest medical drama on our TV screens this summer is not reruns of "House" or "Grey's Anatomy." It's a high stakes, life and death spectacle inside and outside the halls of Congress, as lawmakers attempt open heart surgery on that most fragile and stubborn of patients — health care reform.




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