RE: HEALTH CARE (Full Version)

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Lockit -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 12:19:13 AM)

The problem I see is that Obama has this ideal thing in mind and talks all the pretty words with an expectation of... trust me. He doesn't know that bill and presents something he has no clue how it will work or he would say how it will work. When he says... We need to cut medicare cost and this bill will do that... I just want to shout... how? From what I read on the bill and from what I heard the surgeon general saying and a few others... I have a few ideas and not one of them good.

How many will trust a smooth talking person with their life in bdsm? A lot of people trusted his smooth talking and even when faced with some very real facts are still trusting him. I ask them to read that bill. Obama felt he had the trust and now we should only go on trust. I think not.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 12:58:19 AM)

He does not know with 100% certainty what is going to be in the bill because he doesn't know exactly what the Senate and Congress are going to produce. However, he has told them what he wants and in my opinion that is enough for now, let the Congress exercise its legislative authority and let's see what they come up with, somebody once said Patience is a virtue. I don't think they are going to respond favorably if he starts giving them ultimatums.

If people are wary of the costs as you say it's because Republicans are lying about it, that's the main reason. I have read other articles that can prove this point and when I have time I will go back and find them and post them here.

I'm not confident that if he does the things you want him to do it will work. For now I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt because the guy does know how to win. He did beat Hillary and that was not an easy thing to do. I don't think most people expected him to win the nomination.

I think unfortunately what some people don't understand is that health care is no longer a private commodity people should be buying and selling to make profits. And there still is lots of room for private companies to sell additional insurance with all the bells and whistles and for them to make money doing it. In the meantime, reforms will be passed and I think at least 95% of the people would be covered which will be a significant improvement.

It's definitely not easy being president. And Obama himself said when he was interviewed that passing health care is hard. What I can't believe is the lies and misrepresentation by people who want to make money selling insurance from other people's suffering. I guess I shouldn't be surprised with the lying though when they remove people from coverage on technicalities like acne and they could care less if they live or die from cancer.

I don't think Obama is going to sell out his mother who died of cancer while fighting with insurance companies that were trying to remove her from coverage because cancer was a pre-existing condition.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 1:11:06 AM)

They said they didn't have enough time to read the bill, well now they've got all summer to read it and I'm sure they're going to use the time to misrepresent it and lie about it also.

I was hoping they would get it done before they left for the summer break but now it looks like I'm going to have to follow this all summer and until they get the bill passed. This is very important to me because I have family in New York and family in California and I do not trust these insurance companies one bit. I can't believe that poor girl in California was denied a liver transplant she needed and she ended up dying just because they wanted to improve their bottom line for Wall Street. FUCK them! Blood sucking vampire bastards as Bill Maher said.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 2:26:11 AM)

I think we’re going to get a bill the way Howard Dean describes on the Charlie Rose show, in case anybody missed this, watch this.

Healthcare Reform with Dr. Howard Dean and Dr. Bill Frist
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/10524








housesub4you -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 3:40:01 AM)

It's funny how they don't have time to read "this" bill but had no problem voting on the Patriot Act without reading it and pushed it through so very very fast




Lorr47 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 5:03:46 AM)

Wendall Potter is on PBS in Grand Rapids Michigan right now. It is a repeat but if the powers "that were" do not blow up the transmission tower, it will be worth hearing again. The truth being uttered in the wilderness.




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 7:20:09 AM)

That's funny. Every fact that leaks out about how awful this bill is the fault of someone else. Anyone who tells the truth about this legislative train wreck has to be a lying Republican...

What a hoot.

Look - the Congressional Budget Office is completely nonpartisan - check their figures. As written, Obamacare will add $1.3 trillion to the deficit over the next ten years.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10430/House_Tri-Committee-Rangel.pdf

If people are wary about the costs it's because they have the facts.

Republicans aren't the ones who are lying...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
If people are wary of the costs as you say it's because Republicans are lying about it, that's the main reason.





CallaFirestormBW -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 7:26:17 AM)

Health care is going to cost us. Health care costs us now. The only difference is where the money goes. The whole idea that this is a political and economic issue, instead of a 'health of the nation' issue just completely confounds me -- but really shows where peoples' sense of human dignity and patriotism lies -- a PATRIOT, in my mind, would want a healthy, strong country, capable of having high productivity. Our health is a -resource-, but like everything else, we've gone and gotten all -greedy- about it, to see who could use it up the fastest, make the most money off of it, and run it into the ground so nobody else gets any of the good stuff... "if =I= can't have it, NOBODY can!"

Wake up and smell the coffee, people. We've been dying since we were born, but if we want the most out of our nation and its people we are GOING TO HAVE TO SHELL OUT SOME MONEY TO SOMEONE BESIDES INSURANCE EXECUTIVES, PHARMA EXECS, AND WALL-STREET GAMBLERS. If you have a plan, put it out there and get it to where -someone- can see it. If you don't have a plan, quit fucking whining about how crappy everyone else's plan is -- at least they're trying to -do- something!

DC




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 7:31:14 AM)


Look at the mess California is in.

Deficits matter.

We can't just spend and spend and spend and spend, and pretend that its going to be okay. At some point we have to begin acting like adults, and ask where is the money going to come from.

Look at the deficits now. This bill will add to those deficits - that's a real problem.

And name the last government program that spent less than was forecast?






CallaFirestormBW -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 7:35:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Look at the deficits now. This bill will add to those deficits - that's a real problem.

And name the last government program that spent less than was forecast?



I can't name the last -program- but I -can- name the last administration... Actually, that would be a -Democrat-... Jimmy Carter, whom we loved so much, who took such good care of our government, was careful about spending, was diligent about ethics, and who was such a good statesman and president that we ran him out of office and put in a frigging B-movie actor!!!

DC

EDITED TO ADD:

I just want to add that the first line of my earlier post still applies. WE ARE STILL PAYING FOR HEALTH CARE OUT THE BUTT AND THE MONEY IS _STILL_ BEING WASTED. Of course it's going to cost us... the reason it's running up a deficit is because everyone knows we need this, and NOBODY wants to fucking -pay- for it. Make it a tax, frigging pay for it, and get it done!

AND

If we want health care to not rack up billions of dollars in debt, then don't make it a "for profit" industry where they can keep jacking up the cost to keep money flowing into the pockets of the executives and stockbrokers. Put price caps in place. Make it "not for profit" only. It isn't hard to figure out. The thing that -makes- it hard to figure out is GREED and SELFISHNESS!




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 7:56:49 AM)


Its funny that you should mention the Patriot Act because the biggest beef I have with this end run the Dems are making towards nationalized health care is how it gives the government more control over me and every other citizen - total control over our health care, essentially over our bodies, if they ever get to what they're truly aiming at.

Now, if you don't like your doctor or your provider you can switch. They have to treat you like you matter, because you have choices.

Under Orwelliancare, you'd be cattle moving through the system. Anyone too old or too feeble wouldn't qualify for many procedures because the payoff would be deemed too small, the cost-to-benefit ratio wouldn't add up according to tables they would keep on such matters.

Have to keep costs down, you know.

And nicotine use and other drug use would obviously come under tighter government control.

Anyone found to be obese might have to submit to various government programs in order to remain eligible for further Obamacare. Off to the fat farm with you, for free mandatory government reeducation regarding diet and exercise.

And so on.

Yeah, you thought the power given to government in the Patriot Act was bad - just wait til they get this, and then they get to see you in their examining room.

"Turn your head and go, "moo".


quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

It's funny how they don't have time to read "this" bill but had no problem voting on the Patriot Act without reading it and pushed it through so very very fast








Lorr47 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:03:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

That's funny. Every fact that leaks out about how awful this bill is the fault of someone else. Anyone who tells the truth about this legislative train wreck has to be a lying Republican...

What a hoot.

Look - the Congressional Budget Office is completely nonpartisan - check their figures. As written, Obamacare will add $1.3 trillion to the deficit over the next ten years.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10430/House_Tri-Committee-Rangel.pdf

If people are wary about the costs it's because they have the facts.

Republicans aren't the ones who are lying...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
If people are wary of the costs as you say it's because Republicans are lying about it, that's the main reason.




Go to the just released Fact Check.  One after another republican statements found wrong, inaccurate and deceiving as to Health Care.  Since the republicans want to be scum sucking maggots, calling them the liars they are does not seem all that egregious.




servantforuse -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:04:23 AM)

Oh, Jimmy Carter, the good old days. I remember them well. A defunct military, gas shortages, rampant inflation and interest rates nearing 17 %..A wonderful time in our history. He was a one term president for a reason.




Lorr47 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:09:24 AM)

quote:

Have to keep costs down, you know.


Just keep the republicans' hands out of the till.  I am finding this conversation just as fruitful as asking a republican whether we are winning or losing the war.  Whether we are winning or losing the war is irrelevant to republicans.  The only relevant concern to republicans is that the war goes on supplying opportunities for fraud, theft and other means of lining their pockets.




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:09:26 AM)


Would this supposed "fact check" be on the same far, far left web site on which you've learned your charming debating techniques?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
Go to the just released Fact Check.  One after another republican statements found wrong, inaccurate and deceiving as to Health Care.  Since the republicans want to be scum sucking maggots, calling them the liars they are does not seem all that egregious.





Lorr47 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:11:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Would this supposed "fact check" be on the same far, far left web site on which you've learned your charming debating techniques?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
Go to the just released Fact Check.  One after another republican statements found wrong, inaccurate and deceiving as to Health Care.  Since the republicans want to be scum sucking maggots, calling them the liars they are does not seem all that egregious.




Merely adopting your methodology.




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:18:16 AM)


My methodology? Not even close.

Your calling people scum sucking maggots sounds a lot like growing desperation from a person who feels they are losing a debate. I've noticed you flirting with such TOS violations for the last day or two now.

You're really feeling that your argument is lost, aren't you?

My advice it to just walk away in that case, and thus avoid invoking moderation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
Merely adopting your methodology.





Lorr47 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:24:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


My methodology? Not even close.

Your calling people scum sucking maggots sounds a lot like growing desperation from a person who feels they are losing a debate. I've noticed you flirting with such TOS violations for the last day or two now.

You're really feeling that your argument is lost, aren't you?

My advice it to just walk away in that case, and thus avoid invoking moderation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
Merely adopting your methodology.




I am not worried about health care reform because the more republicans mis characterize the facts the more likely republicans will get caught.  Did I hurt your feeling by criticizing republicans?




Sanity -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:34:13 AM)


Not in the least. That wasn't criticism, true criticism is far more cerebral than that. Words such as those reflect far more poorly on the one using them than the party they are aimed at.

Regarding Republicans mischaracterizing some vague thing, do you have any specifics? Or are you just randomly throwing out accusations along with your name calling, in hopes that something sticks.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
I am not worried about health care reform because the more republicans mis characterize the facts the more likely republicans will get caught.  Did I hurt your feeling by criticizing republicans?





tazzygirl -> RE: HEALTH CARE (8/2/2009 8:38:02 AM)

quote:

Saturday, July 25th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
CBO and IMAC
Peter R. Orszag, Director

This morning, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) analyzed proposals to shift more decision-making out of politics and toward a body like the Independent Medicare Advisory Council (IMAC) put forward by the Administration. CBO noted that this type of approach could lead to significant long-term savings in federal spending on health care and that the available evidence implies that a substantial share of spending on health care contributes little, if anything, to the overall health of the nation. This supports what President Obama has said all along: we can reduce waste and unnecessary spending without reducing quality of care and benefits.

In part because legislation under consideration already includes substantial savings in Medicare over the next decade, CBO found modest additional medium-term savings from this proposal -- $2 billion over 10 years. The point of the proposal, however, was never to generate savings over the next decade. (Indeed, under the Administration’s approach, the IMAC system would not even begin to make recommendations until 2015.) Instead, the goal is to provide a mechanism for improving quality of care for beneficiaries and reducing costs over the long term. In other words, in the terminology of our belt-and-suspenders approach to a fiscally responsible health reform, the IMAC is a game changer not a scoreable offset.

With regard to the long-term impact, CBO suggested that the proposal, with several specific tweaks that would strengthen its operations, could generate significant savings. (The potential modifications included items such as providing mandatory funding for the council, rather than having the council rely on the annual appropriations cycle, and requiring independent verification of the expected reductions in program spending rather than relying only on the Medicare actuaries for such verification, along with other suggestions, such as including an across-the-board reduction in payments as a fallback mechanism if the council did not produce proposals that generated adequate savings.) And if you look back at recent history, one can see why an empowered advisory council would be useful. For example, for the better part of this decade, MedPAC has recommended reducing overpayments to insurance companies for Medicare Advantage plans – to equate those payments with the cost of covering the same beneficiary under traditional Medicare. Yet, nothing happened, costing taxpayers tens of billions of dollars. We can’t afford that type of inertia.

The bottom line is that it is very rare for CBO to conclude that a specific legislative proposal would generate significant long-term savings so it is noteworthy that, with some modifications, CBO reached such a conclusion with regard to the IMAC concept.

A final note is worth underscoring. As a former CBO director, I can attest that CBO is sometimes accused of a bias toward exaggerating costs and underestimating savings. Unfortunately, parts of today’s analysis from CBO could feed that perception. For example, and without specifying precisely how the various modifications would work, CBO somehow concluded that the council could "eventually achieve annual savings equal to several percent of Medicare spending...[which] would amount to tens of billions of dollars per year after 2019." Such savings are welcome (and rare!), but it is also the case that (for good reason) CBO has restricted itself to qualitative, not quantitative, analyses of long-term effects from legislative proposals. In providing a quantitative estimate of long-term effects without any analytical basis for doing so, CBO seems to have overstepped.



http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/09/07/25/CBOandIMAC/




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