RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 6:12:49 AM)

Although his rhetoric is outrageous and I believe wrong about Sotomayor I agree with his basic premise…Affirmative action, though fair and useful at its inception, is now outdated. It served its purpose but now it is dividing more than uniting.

My daughter was a victim of affirmative action and so was I. She had an ACT of 29…yes not the best but better than average… She was denied a scholarship at Washington University in St. Louis because they were given to a group of African Americans with ACT’s of 18. I was all for helping minorities until it cost me $28,000 a year.

Now is the time to dump affirmative action and base all aid on academic and economic standing. It will help the people that need the aid and no one can say they were discriminated against… It seems so simple to me.

Butch



slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 6:17:11 AM)

And so is under representation in board rooms and at the seats of government power...again proportionality.
The goal of all afirmative action programs is to reach a time when they will no longer be necessary...we have not reached that point quite yet....though we are getting there.



servantforuse -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 6:21:34 AM)

I agree. SlvMike seems to think the reverse discrimination is an urban legend, then says we need affirmative action to make it fair. He can't have it both ways. I to have been affected. I lost 2 promotions at at&t to less qualified women. I was told to file a grievance...



kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 6:28:40 AM)

Please enlighten me... what is wrong with basing aid on economic standing rather than race. It will help the people that need it most no matter their ethnicity.

If you can afford to pay for school you should …if you are economically disadvantaged but your child studies and gets good grades in school then you would be eligible for aid.

If you grow up with the same opportunity for an education…your children attend the same schools with accredited teachers… why should any test be different because you’re a minority?

Now if you were discriminated against that is different…prove it… and get those people out of positions of authority.

Butch



slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 6:33:10 AM)

Okay servant,for how many years were woman denied opportunities in certain job classifications....and paid less than men in the positions they were allowed to fill?
kd,for how many years were minorities denied enrollment at certain schools....or minimal quotas enforced.
Do the two of you really think all of those historical roadblocks have been addressed.The ramifications of such prejudice do not disappear in a generation...the negative impact had on both of your lives is more than compensated for by all the advantages the 2 of you have enjoyed for being white in America.
And now I will sit back and await all the whining from other such inconvenienced white victims....lol



servantforuse -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 6:38:38 AM)

Two wrongs don't make a right. I'll say it again. Discrimination is wrong and shouldn't be allowed to continue in this Country for anyone. 



slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 6:57:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Please enlighten me... what is wrong with basing aid on economic standing rather than race. It will help the people that need it most no matter their ethnicity.
Most aid is decided in just that fashion...need.I know my son is a senior at NYU,and that couldn't be done without some assistance.Are there set asides for some groups, sure there are.They are there to give a leg up to historically disadvantaged groups.

If you can afford to pay for school you should …if you are economically disadvantaged but your child studies and gets good grades in school then you would be eligible for aid.
I'm white...and so is my son..and he receive tthe aid he is entilted to.What he doesn't receive is aid set aside for students with certain ethnic backgrounds....nor should he.

If you grow up with the same opportunity for an education…your children attend the same schools with accredited teachers… why should any test be different because you’re a minority?
Pretty big if at the start of that paragraph....what if YOU don't receive the same opportunities...what if you attended an inner city ,overcrowded ,under funded school system.What if the neighborhood you grew up in was a veritable survival course just getting back and forth to school.What if getting out of your neighborhood without joining a gang was a monumental acheivement....a hell of a lot of ifs heh?

Now if you were discriminated against that is different…prove it… and get those people out of positions of authority.
How does one prove systemic societal discrimination.
By the way...it would seem ,based on this thread ,you and servant have some proving to do.....you have both claimed here to have been discriminated against...with far less proof and far less adverse results than any member of a minority could produce.

Butch




Crush -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 6:58:21 AM)

I particularly like this edit of the video.  Shows Buchanan in all his idiocy:     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0



slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:01:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Two wrongs don't make a right. I'll say it again. Discrimination is wrong and shouldn't be allowed to continue in this Country for anyone. 
And not correcting a giant and pervasive wrong because it might ,to some degree, negatively impact some members of a group who has enjoyed all the advantages that went with this pervasive system.....is simply wrong.
Buck up servant,I'm sure its not thhat dificult to be white in America.....certainly you don't get pulled over by the police as often.[8|]



kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:03:13 AM)

Please don't think I am denying discrimination in the past... That was the purpose of affirmative action... to even the playing field... My contention is the field is now level. Yes there is still discrimination but it is not institutionalized as in the past… It can and is being dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

It does no good to discriminate against one group because of past discrimination against another…unless you think revenge is appropriate.

Now again…would not African Americans…Hispanics…or any other group that is or was discriminated against be more likely to be economically disadvantaged? And if so would they not still receive the lions share of any aid?… And would this no longer be racially based system?

If the final result is the same why purposely have a system that can be perceived as discriminating against any group…minority or majority?

Butch



servantforuse -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:04:37 AM)

Since affirmation action policies are alive and well, how long in your view are they needed to level the playing field ? Another 20 years, 30 years. Maybe forever?



Louve00 -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:14:32 AM)

I agree with kdsub.  The law needs to be editted.  Prejudice still exits.  Pat Buchanan proves that.  But affirmative action does need to be tweeked.



Lucylastic -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:18:57 AM)

what a despicable racist little man (buchanan)..oh and Crush.... are you trying to upset me??? the link to me to a rick astley vid, *hisssssssss*[:D]
Lucy



kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:20:40 AM)

Inner city schools in St Louis receive more funds from the state than any other school district ...so under funding is not the problem in my area. They are closing schools because of lack of attendance so crowding is not the problem.

They have magnet schools that are some of the best in Missouri.

You must also realize that minorities are spread throughout my area… in fact more live in the burgs than the inner city... they are getting the exact same education as my children.

There is just no longer an excuse for any aid by race...but there is a big need of help for those economically disadvantaged.

You have not answered my question... If you have a system that helps the same people but will not be perceived as discriminating...why not use it?

Butch



slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:23:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Please don't think I am denying discrimination in the past... That was the purpose of affirmative action... to even the playing field... My contention is the field is now level. Yes there is still discrimination but it is not institutionalized as in the past… It can and is being dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

It does no good to discriminate against one group because of past discrimination against another…unless you think revenge is appropriate.

Now again…would not African Americans…Hispanics…or any other group that is or was discriminated against be more likely to be economically disadvantaged? And if so would they not still receive the lions share of any aid?… And would this no longer be racially based system?

If the final result is the same why purposely have a system that can be perceived as discriminating against any group…minority or majority?

Butch

No KD,the effects of that discrimination are still being felt in inner cities all across this country.Care to compare the number of students in an inner city school to those in an afluent neighborhood.How about the quality of teachers....access to teaching materials?Number of single parent households....absence of positive pole models.....gang presence.
Do you really think all children are born at the same starting line?
When we can answer President Kennedy's question concerning switching places in a positive manner....than we will have no more need for AA programs...



Lorr47 -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:27:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Although his rhetoric is outrageous and I believe wrong about Sotomayor I agree with his basic premise…Affirmative action, though fair and useful at its inception, is now outdated. It served its purpose but now it is dividing more than uniting.

My daughter was a victim of affirmative action and so was I. She had an ACT of 29…yes not the best but better than average… She was denied a scholarship at Washington University in St. Louis because they were given to a group of African Americans with ACT’s of 18. I was all for helping minorities until it cost me $28,000 a year.

Now is the time to dump affirmative action and base all aid on academic and economic standing. It will help the people that need the aid and no one can say they were discriminated against… It seems so simple to me.

Butch


I heard an interesting argument today that this is all part of a republican conspiracy to have blacks and whites of the middle class fight among themselves and miss the main threat that the republicans are systematically trying to destroy the middle class and divert even more wealth to the upper classes.  Class warfare. Don't you just love the smell of gunpowder in the morning.



kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:31:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No KD,the effects of that discrimination are still being felt in inner cities all across this country.Care to compare the number of students in an inner city school to those in an afluent neighborhood.How about the quality of teachers....access to teaching materials?Number of single parent households....absence of positive pole models.....gang presence.
Do you really think all children are born at the same starting line?
When we can answer President Kennedy's question concerning switching places in a positive manner....than we will have no more need for AA programs...


St. Louis is a good example ...the inner city populations are decreasing... people white and black are moving to the subs... They have the same system my kids do...... BUT... would not these same people you are talking about in the inner cities receive the same aid because of their economic situation?

Yes they would and it could not be perceived as race based and discrimination against anyone... How can I be clearer?

Butch



kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:35:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47


I heard an interesting argument today that this is all part of a republican conspiracy to have blacks and whites of the middle class fight among themselves and miss the main threat that the republicans are systematically trying to destroy the middle class and divert even more wealth to the upper classes.  Class warfare. Don't you just love the smell of gunpowder in the morning.



lol... as a half-assed most of the time democrat I think republicans are misguided and mistaken on many things...but so are democrats and affirmative action is one.

Butch



Starbuck09 -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:43:13 AM)

Slvemike you cannot cite historical context as an excuse for ''positive'' discrimination. In a similar vein the argument that we need proportion in any walk of life is ludicrous if that means that less able people are being given positions over those with more merit. What is important is that there is an equal chance that anyone with the right qualifications can gain admittance, which is, by and large, what America has. The fact that white people historically had more opportunities than black people is irellevant and deeply insulting to caucasions of this generation. I do not expect jewish people to be given preferential treatment in Germany because of their governments domestic policies in the forties. Positive discrimination is divisive not uniting if people in minorities are not getting on average the same standard of education or qualifications as white people then the reasons should be investigated and if it is possible resolved. The answer is not to give places to those who have not earnt them over the heads of others who have.



slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:44:33 AM)

kd,take a look at the percentages of blacks and Hispanics in professional positions....woefully proportionally underrepresented.
Now take a look at the prison population in this country...  those two minority groups are disproportionately over represented.
Now you have a choice,you can explain those sets of statistics by a predisposition for criminality in the one instance...and a predisposition for underachieving or laziness in the other instance.
Or you can conclude that perhaps the playing field is not yet even.
Or better yet imagine striking all legislation having to do with race....not just affirmative action but all civil rights legislation,all voting rights acts......do you really beleive America has reached a place in race relations where the good will of our fellow man is capable of keeping things moving in the right direction.If the answer to that is yes....you need to go back and look at the recent presidential election....and all the fears and bigotry that surfaced swirling around Candidate Obama and his campaign.



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