RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit!

RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (Full Version)

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Lorr47 -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:48:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 I heard an interesting argument today that this is all part of a republican conspiracy to have blacks and whites of the middle class fight among themselves and miss the main threat that the republicans are systematically trying to destroy the middle class and divert even more wealth to the upper classes. Class warfare. Don't you just love the smell of gunpowder in the morning. lol... as a half-assed most of the time democrat I think republicans are misguided and mistaken on many things...but so are democrats and affirmative action is one. Butch I probably agree with you. Affirmative action is a theory whose time is over. However, to get the masses arguing about affirmative action when all the real issues hanging out there deserve so much more consideration is sickening. Sotomyer(sic) from what I can see followed established law which the Supreme Court promptly modified 5-4. (The reasons for changing the law could be several including trying to make her look bad.) Probably not her fault; probably not their fault. It happens every day. I do not belong to either party and am getting to the point that I believe the only way honesty and morality will be restored to either party is at the end of a gun. I do like Obama, but only consider him a moral, honest conservative (compared to me).

Starbuck09 -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 7:50:02 AM)
But the reasons for misrepresentatio slavemike ae not goingto e resolved by giving positions to people who are not qualified to hold them. That simply rewards problems ad means that nothing willl be done to reverse the root causes.

slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:02:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Slvemike you cannot cite historical context as an excuse for ''positive'' discrimination. In a similar vein the argument that we need proportion in any walk of life is ludicrous if that means that less able people are being given positions over those with more merit. What is important is that there is an equal chance that anyone with the right qualifications can gain admittance, which is, by and large, what America has. The fact that white people historically had more opportunities than black people is irellevant and deeply insulting to caucasions of this generation. I do not expect jewish people to be given preferential treatment in Germany because of their governments domestic policies in the forties. Positive discrimination is divisive not uniting if people in minorities are not getting on average the same standard of education or qualifications as white people then the reasons should be investigated and if it is possible resolved. The answer is not to give places to those who have not earnt them over the heads of others who have. Ahhh, so obviously you believe we are all born at the same starting point....and with equal number of roadbloks needed to overcome to acheive sucess.Earning it can,at times,be relative to how hard one has to work...and the number of pitfalls one must avoid to get to where one seeks to go.

servantforuse -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:05:44 AM)
Mike. So how long should affirmative action policies be kept in place . Guys like you will think forever...

slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:05:58 AM)
Folks I'm bowing out of this...i have been involved in way too many of these threads here.Claiming a lack of discrimination...without taking into account lack of opportunity is fruitless.....I would rather watch Tiger play the British Open...enjoy your discussion.

kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:06:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u kd,take a look at the percentages of blacks and Hispanics in professional positions....woefully proportionally underrepresented. Now take a look at the prison population in this country... those two minority groups are disproportionately over represented. Now you have a choice,you can explain those sets of statistics by a predisposition for criminality in the one instance...and a predisposition for underachieving or laziness in the other instance. Or you can conclude that perhaps the playing field is not yet even. Or better yet imagine striking all legislation having to do with race....not just affirmative action but all civil rights legislation,all voting rights acts......do you really beleive America has reached a place in race relations where the good will of our fellow man is capable of keeping things moving in the right direction.If the answer to that is yes....you need to go back and look at the recent presidential election....and all the fears and bigotry that surfaced swirling around Candidate Obama and his campaign. You keep side stepping the issue.... I am and have been talking education aid and affirmative action in our educational system. Would not economically based aid help the very same people you are listing above?...please answer... I think it would with NO discrimination. I'll keep asking the same question over and over again until you answer it...lol Butch

Starbuck09 -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:06:15 AM)
I believe that if we are not all born at the same starting point then addressing the reasons for this are far more beneficial for race relation and integration than positive discrimination.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:07:49 AM)
I am not claiming there is an equality of opportunity though slave mike as I have clearly stated I have simply said that such an imbalance is not best addressed by positive discrimination. If anything that simply serves to make matters worse.

slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:13:36 AM)
Quick answers ,than back to the British Open....Starbuck,other than straight entitlement programs Affirmative action is the best way to improve the station of future generations Butch without Affirmative action most minorities would have no need of financial set asides.....they simply would go from high school to whatever menial labor job they could obtain .Affirmative Action is still,sadly so.sorely needed. Sorry if those were quick and short answers....but back to the British Open.....have a nice day!

kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:29:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Quick answers ,than back to the British Open....Starbuck,other than straight entitlement programs Affirmative action is the best way to improve the station of future generations Butch without Affirmative action most minorities would have no need of financial set asides.....they simply would go from high school to whatever menial labor job they could obtain .Affirmative Action is still,sadly so.sorely needed. Sorry if those were quick and short answers....but back to the British Open.....have a nice day! That makes no sense my friend... really if they want to better themselves and need aid to do it....as now... then they will take advantage of the non discriminating system. If they are truly the most disadvantaged financially then they will be the ones to get the aid. If they are not the most financially disadvantaged then someone more needy will be the beneficiary of the aid. If they do not choose to take advantage of this economical system then it is their own fault not the government...not racists... no one but themselves. You see I am trying to figure a way to help the very same people as you...but do it in a non-discriminatory way... I think it can be done. I want to take the ammo away from the people that cry discrimination when there is a race quota...but help the same people fairly. I'll bet there were plenty of African Americans with an ACT equal to my daughter that were economically disadvantaged... I would have nothing to bitch about in that case. But to just let race and race alone be the determining factor is discriminatory today. Butch

philosophy -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:36:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub If they are truly the most disadvantaged financially then they will be the ones to get the aid. ...but isn't that precisely what you were mad about when you mentioned the scholarship earlier in the thread. $28000 you said it cost you.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:36:56 AM)
Mike, if you have a stroke and you're lying on the operating table being prepped for brain surgery, would you prefer the surgeon is someone who worked their ass off to get into medical school - or someone who had shitty grades and leaped past hundreds of smarter, harder-working kids because they happened to be black? If your house is on fire, do you want the captain in charge of the fire crew to be someone who's so dedicated to his profession that he spent 20 hours a week for 6 months studying for the captain's exam - or are you OK with someone who didn't study much at all, only did half as well as the first guy, but got the job because she was a woman? Do you want the bridge you drive across every day on the way to work to have been designed by an "A" student who finished in the top 5 percent of his class - or a "C" student who partied every night, showed up for class just often enough to graduate, and jumped past the "A" student because he's hispanic? These inner city schools that turn out poor students because they have such substandard teachers - do you think we're going to fix that problem by hiring mediocre teachers because they're black, or hiring the best possible teachers no matter what their race? You're often very vocal about the problems we have in this country, and we've got a lot of them. What do you think gives us the best chance of solving those problems - hiring the best possible candidates for every position and advancing the best students into higher education programs, or hiring mediocre candidates and advancing mediocre students because they're members of various minorities? If our society still has too many built-in obstacles blocking the way of minorities, then correct those problems - don't try to correct for them by deliberately dumbing down our society even further, which is exactly what you do when deny opportunities to the best qualified and hardest-working members of that society and put less-qualified people into positions of responsibility.

kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:39:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub If they are truly the most disadvantaged financially then they will be the ones to get the aid. ...but isn't that precisely what you were mad about when you mentioned the scholarship earlier in the thread. $28000 you said it cost you. Phil I would not have been upset if the aid were based on ability to pay rather than race...that is my point.

slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:41:24 AM)
Just when I think I'm out......butch drags me back in.How long do I think it should continue butch asked....and than answered his own question with the statement that "guys like you will think forever" Well Butch,you would once again be wrong...it should end when a white American can honestly say,with his eyes wide open,that he/she wouldn't mind being a black man/woman in America.That he was born with the same,or at least appreciatively equal opportunity as his white brethren....In other words when we as a nation can answer in the positive the question John Kennedy asked white America to honestly pose to themselves. Reach that goal....and than do away with affirmative action programs.Till than they are needed,despite the inconveniences felt by some. By the way Judge Sotomayor would not be the first Affirmative Action baby on the Supreme Court....Justice Thomas ,the darling of conservatives is a product of those programs too.....though he seems to have forgotten that once he reached his own little promised land. and now I'm turning the damm computer off......

Starbuck09 -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:47:37 AM)
But don't you see mike that actually this method makes no sense? To stamp out discrimination we are going to discriminate? The only way that these problems will be sorted out is by looking at the causes of the problems, be they cultural, economic, geographic e.t.c. and devising methods to redress the imbalance. This doesn't do that. At best it allows a lucky few to enjoy positions they are not qualified to hold. At worst it reinforces negative racial stereotypes by putting people in jobs where they are bound to fare poorly as they are not good enough to execute them. It stirs up anger and hostility with the majority population [legitimately so] and still does nothing to solve the problems which cause the imbalance in the first place.

kdsub -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 8:49:28 AM)
lol...wouldn't you be surprised to know my ethnicity. I am from another discriminated against group…but that is still not my point. I give up on you answering my question… your mind is closed just now. Maybe another time it will be open to alternatives. I know you are passionate in your views and you are right in many we have discussed here…but I am presenting an alternative that should be not considered discriminatory by anyone and still serve the same purpose. With the advantage of ensuring the best and brightest minds get the benefit of the system. Butch PS... I like dragging you back.. You are fun to debate.

slvemike4u -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 9:19:21 AM)
Panda ,the operating table metaphor is ridiculous.....grant the student is admitted into medical school due to some affirmative action program...if he is not up to the curriculum....he never winds up operating on me or you. Affirmative action strives to find qualified minorities for positions....not simply minorities to fill quotas.Please show me one instance of someone floating thru medical or law school....based solely on AA programs.False and extremely flawed premise and not worthy of your usual postings

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 9:20:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire Oh My Fucking God!!! Did anyone else just catch the Rachel Madow Show a few minutes ago? Jesus! Patrick J. Buchannan opened his mouth, and branded himself a bigot forever more! If you can, check out the repeat later tonight, otherwise, I'm sure that you'll be able to pick it up on MSNBC.com tomorrow... and on every talking head show with half a shred of credibility for the next few days! Could you give your definition of bigot please? You seem to have several bigoted views as well, especially against a political party as a whole, rather than at individuals or groups within it. Someone could easily come out here, apply your standard to the Democratic party, and come to the same conclusion. quote: Honest to God, guys. If you really, really want to know why I outright detest everything that the GOP stands for, check out this interview! This should give you some inkling on how I see this out of date, mean, shit-on-a-shingle party! Do you agree with everything that has been done by the Dems? Careful now, there are some bad things done by all politicians, and you wouldn't want those bad things branded on you. quote: Even if you agree with Pat's bigotry, (God help you if you do!) you'll at least get a laugh out of Rachel's stunned expressions. She, and I'm sure most of her audiance, were all thinking the same thing: "I thought these had gone extinct ages ago..." I do not agree with bigotry (see a dictionary for the actual definition) in any form because it is closed and narrow thinking. I will skip the pony show that you are commenting about, as I do not buy into the political distractions and cheerleading that gives so many other their jollies.

Arpig -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 9:23:43 AM)
quote: it should end when a white American can honestly say,with his eyes wide open,that he/she wouldn't mind being a black man/woman in America http://sillydad.com/silly/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/wigger-15513.jpg Sorry, couldn't resist [:D]

philosophy -> RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! (7/17/2009 9:43:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub If they are truly the most disadvantaged financially then they will be the ones to get the aid. ...but isn't that precisely what you were mad about when you mentioned the scholarship earlier in the thread. $28000 you said it cost you. Phil I would not have been upset if the aid were based on ability to pay rather than race...that is my point. .....how do you know it wasn't? Just because the bursury went to people from a minority group doesn't necessarily mean that's the reason they were given it. The problem with the opposition to affirmative action is that it sometimes fails to discriminate between help given because someone happens to be from a minority, and help given to someone from a minority who happens to qualify under other criterion.

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