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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 7:41:36 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle

We lose the point of the entire discussion when we say it is about Atheists versus Religion.  It is about citizens who support the Constitution versus those who wish to circumvent it, regardless of their well intentioned reasons for wishing to circumvent it.  Though it is often groups of organized Atheists who bring the suits, they do it to support our Constitution and preserve our rights to believe what we choose.

So why is it almost (almost) always atheists who are bringing suit?

Are atheists the only ones who support the Constitution?

Or is there possibly another reason, and "fighting to support the Constitution" makes a good cover?

Firm

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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 7:51:47 PM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Christmas, Santa Claus and Easter with the bunny rabbits are a little different because they’ve been influenced by capitalism or consumerism. For instance, if you look into it, the present concept of Santa Claus, a fat man in a red suit giving presents, that’s all about corporations brainwashing us to spend money buying stuff so they can make profits. Santa Clause was a creation of the Coca-Cola Company, at least the modern version of the man in a red suit.




Say it ain't so............



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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 8:08:11 PM   
Racquelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle

We lose the point of the entire discussion when we say it is about Atheists versus Religion.  It is about citizens who support the Constitution versus those who wish to circumvent it, regardless of their well intentioned reasons for wishing to circumvent it.  Though it is often groups of organized Atheists who bring the suits, they do it to support our Constitution and preserve our rights to believe what we choose.

So why is it almost (almost) always atheists who are bringing suit?

Are atheists the only ones who support the Constitution?

Or is there possibly another reason, and "fighting to support the Constitution" makes a good cover?

Firm
  In my experience it is quite often the American Civil Liberties Union, which is not a religious or atheist organization.  I can only speak of my experience, since I really haven't the time to analyze who MOSTLY brings the suits since such a statistical analysis would take perhaps weeks.

That said, you have done well diverting the point again and not speaking to the question at hand.  Perhaps its your good cover for lack of support of the Constitution.

What are your beliefs and why do you wish the state to promote them above mine or anyone else's?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 8:17:39 PM   
Racquelle


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Status: offline 		In addition to the ACLU, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State brings suits:  Here is their mission statement -

"We come from all backgrounds and represent all fifty states. In our work, we seek to preserve and protect religious freedom for every single American and have been dedicated to this since 1947. Our Mission Statement Americans United (AU) is a nonpartisan organization dedicated to preserving the constitutional principle of church-state separation as the only way to ensure religious freedom for all Americans."
No mention of atheism or agnosticism.
I can also find where the Catholic Church has brought church-state separation suits.  Also some regular high school students from Elmbrook High School.




< Message edited by Racquelle -- 7/20/2009 8:19:36 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 8:20:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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Before bed, i wanted to leave a few thoughts. The first is this... there seems to be more than just words on a wall at the heart of this battle. According to the SC decisions that changed the intention of the First Amendment, those words do not reflect a belief in one religion. Ive done alot of reading, researching, and offering links. If you care to find this, just look up First Amendment, you should find it easily enough along with all three court decisions and the changes.

The second thing is... when its all said and done, when the atheists have "won" (which is my personal opinion as to why they are doing this) then what? do you honestly believe that my faith in whatever i believe in will change? Christianity, heck, most religions, are flexible and diverse enough to withstand assaults, as they have throughout history. Most will view this as one more hurdle to add to the others. a bothersome nuisance to wait out.

And thirdly (im tired, so forgive me if that isnt a word.. i cant remember.. lol) in the end, when time draws near, as it does for us all... many of us who believe in a higher power, god or goddess, or the plural thereof... we can find comfort in the thought that.. IF... that "higher power (s)" is/are real... but for those who claim they are not... well... i have known quite a few patients that, in the last moments of their lives, they had a sudden change of heart.. or mind.


Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I see no seperation of church and state in there... and as far as i know, the US has not established any religion above the others.


an interesting read
sweet dreams!

Now, if what is in this site is true...

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_index.htm

Then why did our government do what this site claims it did? or are these things in the site below a lie?

http://www.achw.org/sepcs.htm

im not sure... ill look into it tomorrow.


< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 7/20/2009 8:35:11 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 8:32:00 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

We lose the point of the entire discussion when we say it is about Atheists versus Religion.  It is about citizens who support the Constitution versus those who wish to circumvent it, regardless of their well intentioned reasons for wishing to circumvent it.  Though it is often groups of organized Atheists who bring the suits, they do it to support our Constitution and preserve our rights to believe what we choose.


EXACTLY!!!


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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 8:49:52 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Christmas, Santa Claus and Easter with the bunny rabbits are a little different because they’ve been influenced by capitalism or consumerism. For instance, if you look into it, the present concept of Santa Claus, a fat man in a red suit giving presents, that’s all about corporations brainwashing us to spend money buying stuff so they can make profits. Santa Clause was a creation of the Coca-Cola Company, at least the modern version of the man in a red suit.




Say it ain't so............





It ain't so.

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Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 8:51:52 PM   
BKSir


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Status: offline 		Now, I'm all for sensible separation, but for the love of all that's tasty... some people just have to get their panties in a knot over everything, don't they?

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Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 9:03:48 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle

We lose the point of the entire discussion when we say it is about Atheists versus Religion.  It is about citizens who support the Constitution versus those who wish to circumvent it, regardless of their well intentioned reasons for wishing to circumvent it.  Though it is often groups of organized Atheists who bring the suits, they do it to support our Constitution and preserve our rights to believe what we choose.

So why is it almost (almost) always atheists who are bringing suit?

Are atheists the only ones who support the Constitution?

Or is there possibly another reason, and "fighting to support the Constitution" makes a good cover?

Firm

Many of these lawsuits are brought by or supported by Americans United for Seperation of Church and State, AU for short. The executive director of AU is Rev. Barry Lynn, ordained in the United Church of Christ.

So no fighting to protect the Constitution isn't cover. It is upholding a long tradition amongst both the secular and religious in this nation dating back to at least the famous letter from the Danbury Baptists to President Jefferson.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 9:10:32 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I agree BK that it seems a pretty petty issue, however if you stop and think about it, it isn't petty at all. The claim that putting a reference to God on the wall of a federal building is tantamount to giving support to those religions (and beliefs) that recognise a single God is actually correct, and on that basis should be unconstitutional. The rules about freedom of religion are very important, one only has to look at the wars of the Reformation to understand why.

I would also hazard that if somebody were to challenge the use of the motto, it too would be found to be unconstitutional. To leave the wall blank is the only reasonable solution that does not give preference to any particular cosmological belief (or lack thereof).


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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 9:12:58 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Sure, but I think it's important to keep clear the distinction between a belief and a belief system. Not to be overly pedantic, but a belief system generally means a structure of interlocking beliefs that a person uses as a template and a guide for how they live their lives. People make choices in their lives based on what their belief system tells them is appropriate.   
You only have to believe in god to believe in god. That really is the only requirement to have. The same as you only have to not believe in god to be an atheist. With believers there might or might not be other things that come with it. You could have a person who believes in god and believes nothing but that. Follows no other beliefs or customs. In that way he would qualify just as you say an atheist does as having one belief and not a belief system.

A belief is simply... one belief. I believe that Los Lobos is by far the best live rock and roll band in the world, but that belief doesn't affect the way I live my life at all. Except on the night of the show, of course. And by the same token, I think very few atheists make major life decisions based upon their belief that there is no god. They just... live their lives. (They live them as if there was no god)  I would have to say that a persons life springs from his view, either for or against there being a god. Maybe semantics maybe not. Los lobos? Might have heard of them.



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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 9:20:27 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle

We lose the point of the entire discussion when we say it is about Atheists versus Religion.  It is about citizens who support the Constitution versus those who wish to circumvent it, regardless of their well intentioned reasons for wishing to circumvent it.  Though it is often groups of organized Atheists who bring the suits, they do it to support our Constitution and preserve our rights to believe what we choose.

So why is it almost (almost) always atheists who are bringing suit?

Are atheists the only ones who support the Constitution?

Or is there possibly another reason, and "fighting to support the Constitution" makes a good cover?

Firm

Many of these lawsuits are brought by or supported by Americans United for Seperation of Church and State, AU for short. The executive director of AU is Rev. Barry Lynn, ordained in the United Church of Christ.

So no fighting to protect the Constitution isn't cover. It is upholding a long tradition amongst both the secular and religious in this nation dating back to at least the famous letter from the Danbury Baptists to President Jefferson.


Yep. I'm no atheist, and I strongly support these efforts. No matter who brings the suits. You keep your god out of my life, and I'll keep mine out of yours.


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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 9:36:30 PM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline 		In Pandas We Trust

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 9:50:12 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Sure, but I think it's important to keep clear the distinction between a belief and a belief system. Not to be overly pedantic, but a belief system generally means a structure of interlocking beliefs that a person uses as a template and a guide for how they live their lives. People make choices in their lives based on what their belief system tells them is appropriate. 
 
You only have to believe in god to believe in god. That really is the only requirement to have. The same as you only have to not believe in god to be an atheist. With believers there might or might not be other things that come with it. You could have a person who believes in god and believes nothing but that. Follows no other beliefs or customs. In that way he would qualify just as you say an atheist does as having one belief and not a belief system.


Sure. Not everyone who believes in god considers their belief to be the basis of a belief system, because many people (like myself) do believe in god but do not believe in religion. But for those who consider themselves to be active followers of a religion, it does constitute a belief system. Which I don't think can be as easily or as persuasively said of athiesm.




quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
A belief is simply... one belief. I believe that Los Lobos is by far the best live rock and roll band in the world, but that belief doesn't affect the way I live my life at all. Except on the night of the show, of course. And by the same token, I think very few atheists make major life decisions based upon their belief that there is no god. They just... live their lives. (They live them as if there was no god)  I would have to say that a persons life springs from his view, either for or against there being a god. Maybe semantics maybe not.




Oh, I totally agree with that. I don't think it's semantics at all. I think the difference, though, is that for people who consider themselves religious, a belief in god is often a direct and deliberate influence in the way they live their lives and make their decisions. Their belief in their religion directly shapes the choices they make. For many religious people, their belief in their god is a constant theme woven into the fabric of the way they live in the world. And I don't think that's true of most atheists. If it is, I'm just not seeing it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Los lobos? Might have heard of them.


Check 'em out if the opportunity presents itself. On a good night, they're as good as it gets.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 10:00:42 PM   
veronica7


Posts: 3
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Status: offline 		Good! I hope they are successful.

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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 10:04:15 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle

In Pandas We Trust


Darn tootin'! If you can't put your trust in someone who wants nothing more out of life than an endless supply of fresh bamboo shoots, who can you trust?


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Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 10:23:21 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Darn tootin'! If you can't put your trust in someone who wants nothing more out of life than an endless supply of fresh bamboo shoots, who can you trust?


Jim Jeffries may disagree with you.


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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 10:39:51 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		I'm going to track that motherfucker down, and spray paint him white with big black patches before I rip his heart out of his chest and stuff it down his throat as his eyes glaze over and roll back in their sockets. Nobody disses cute, harmless, peaceful little pandas like that and lives.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 7/20/2009 10:40:13 PM >

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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 10:43:49 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I'm going to track that motherfucker down, and spray paint him white with big black patches before I rip his heart out of his chest and stuff it down his throat as his eyes glaze over and roll back in their sockets. Nobody disses cute, harmless, peaceful little pandas like that and lives.


There's no need for that. He disses himself even more.

You have to hang with that one a bit....but he tells a very...embarrassing tale.


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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 11:31:29 PM   
MissAnimus


Posts: 91
Joined: 12/28/2006
Status: offline 		I'm glad it's being discussed. I cringe every time I see and hear it. I am an American and a proud patriot, but I hate that the lines of government and church get blurred. I won't say part of the pledge even in front of my students. I resent that it's on our currency too. 

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Profile   Post #: 200
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