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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 3:55:50 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

It seems to me a simpler solution should be a ratification to the Constitution, barring religious connotations to any law, public building or gathering, ect. But then we open ourselves up to more restrictions. The christmas day parade would be deemed offensive to those who do not celebrate.. so... its history. Many have tried to bar the christmas tree from public displays. We all have seen the uproar to the public nativity scenes. Would halloween be next? Thanksgiving? would those who are lucky enough to have the holidays off with pay now have to work because an atheist or a non christian person doesnt believe in that holiday? would make a good excuse for businesses to be open then, and to be able to get rid of paying time and a half if you work them.


See, these kinds of responses are meant to play to the emotions (fears) of the audience. They are not a balanced, debate-worth argument.

We shouldn't -need- another ratification of the Constitution to bar religious connotations to any law, public building or gathering. It is already -there-, encompassed in the First Amendment. The First Amendment guarantees Freedom of Religion, and assures that there is -no- State-Sanctioned religion. Therefore, the laws that put "God" on our money and buildings were unconstitutional from the very beginning. We cannot be "One Nation Under God, Indivisible" when there are members of the nation who do not believe in, follow, or pray to God.

Prayer in schools should be silent if done at all. The schools decided to make it easy on everyone and get it out of school entirely, but certain religious groups, insisting that they knew what was best for everyone, pushed the issue--at that point, there was no choice but to allow -every- group to be represented, because if we are in a nation that has NO State religion, than any religion expressed within the confines of a government-led organization (which our public schools are) must either eliminate all references to religion, or must be able and willing to teach -all- possible religious options equally.

A Christmas Day parade may be considered unsuitable if it is being sanctioned by the local government on any level... City, state, village, or national. On the other hand, a Christmas or Thanksgiving Day parade that is privately funded has every right to continue to be presented... however, it is also reasonable and just that those who -oppose- such an event have equal time to present their own rally or event in contrast. Now let me ask you -this-... how do you think the Southern Baptists would respond if the local coven in their community decided that, if the Baptists could have a holiday parade, they could have a Solstice Pageant? It is -just- to allow such a thing to happen, but how many Christians would pull at their Christmas Frocks if it actually did?

The fact is, if one group does something, it is within the realm of Free Speech for someone else to complain about it being done. If the Christians want to have a Christmas tree at Christmas as opposed to a Holiday Tree, and they insist on it being declared a "Christmas Tree" to put the "Christ" back in Christmas, and they want to have it set up in the Central Commons of Neverville USA, then why shouldn't the Pagans be allowed to celebrate Samhain in a public park, and the Voudoun get to celebrate Day of the Dead or Carnival outside the Town Hall? But if you're going to deny one group, then we have to deny them all -- there is no special clause for Christians, just because they're the majority among the believers.

I'm not even going to go into Thanksgiving and the huge farce that makes up -that- holiday.

Ideally, the way to deal with the whole holiday pay issue is just to give people those extra 9 days a year off to do what they damned well please with. The atheists can tack them onto their regular vacation days, the Christians can take Thanksgiving, Good Friday, and Christmas, the Jewish folk can take Yom Kippur and Passover, the Pagans can take Samhain and Midsummer Eve and whatever else strokes your chicken... Many businesses have already gone to this model, and it just makes common sense. I know that where I work, we get State holidays, plus 4 'floating' holidays a year to use according to your own beliefs. I don't know about you, but I don't believe in God and I -still- enjoy the couple of days off in the winter... if they gave them to me in my vacation, I might -still- take a couple days in December just to go see some snow. OTOH, it is annoying as heck to run out of eggs or want to go out for a bite to eat or something on Christmas day and not be able to find a single doggone grocery store or restaurant to get a decent meal, just because -some- folks in the neighborhood have a religious holiday that day.

DC



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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:00:17 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willowspirit

It's freedom OF religion... Not freedom FROM it.

The Founders of this country had NO intention to establish a particular sect  -- or creed/denomination. And sought constitutional protection OF RELIGION and it's proliferation.

"In God We Trust"  IS constitutional  -- as long as it doesn't mandate a state "approved" definition of God in accordance with any particular sect's doctrines over any other sect.

Contrary to common thought -- and to state my agreement with what others have said -- Atheists / Atheism IS NOT by definition  "without A Theism" -- or a set of religious beliefs. They seem to have VERY definite religious beliefs...

...  and if the State embraces the Theism of  atheists, that  IS  UNCONSTITUTIONAL.


So, if you say that the purpose of freedom of religion was not to establish a particular sect or religious belief over any other, and then say that atheism is a religious belief, you are contradicting yourself in arguing that "In God We trust" is constitutional.



EXACTLY -- if you are pushing your religion and imprinting of your religious beliefs on public buildings that I must share in the payment of and use for my public business, you are DENYING my right to -my- religious beliefs by forcing your beliefs on me.

ON the other hand... if there is NOTHING on the building, neither of our beliefs is being enforced -- there is nothing there to offend either a god-worshipper or an atheist.

Why is this so -bloody- hard for people to grasp?


DC

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:08:00 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

Irrespective of the legal issues, preventing someone from expressing their beliefs is a negative.


You are being intentionally obtuse.

The absence of some carving depicting your God on a building does NOT prevent you from expressing your beliefs. You can express your beliefs with or without the damned words on the building -- what those words on the building do is FORCE those who do NOT believe in God to accept that a PUBLIC OFFICE displays wording enforcing a particular religious belief over any other "In God We Trust". It doesn't say "In God FIRM Trusts" It says "In God WE Trust"... implying that anyone related by concatenative assemblage to that building (in this case, anyone who is governed by the Federal Government) believes in God... and I do NOT and I -do- resent someone else essentially speaking on -my- behalf, as if I am incapable of speaking for myself about my absence of belief in such a thing.

If there is NO carving on the building, you and yours are free to enter that building and believe any way you see fit, and explain to others how you believe, as it suits you, and there is NO presumption that you are one certain way or another, until you say so. Rather than preventing your expression of your beliefs, a blank canvas gives you complete control and autonomy on how you express your beliefs AND it leaves the door open for others to similarly express their own beliefs in their own way, with no presupposition as to their relationship to the State's "God".

DC

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:24:16 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

It's freedom OF religion... Not freedom FROM it.


Actually, Freedom of Religion incorporates the absence within the scope of the entirety. If one has true freedom of religion, then it is a pre-requisite that the absence of religion be on one end of that spectrum of possible options. Otherwise, it is an enforcement of religion, which is unconstitutional.

DC

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:25:26 PM   
ThatDaveGuy69


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Status: offline 		I want a sign too!!!

Hail Xenu!

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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:29:17 PM   
tazzygirl


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and words mean....?

as i said before, i could care less what words are printed, or not printed, on a building. im there to do business, not admire the pretty symbols. why is that so hard to understand? many people are like i am. why isnt the ACLU up in arms over school schedules being allowed to change because a group wants to be allowed to pray? not that it matters to me. just makes me wonder at the equality of things that everyone wants to complain about.

Someone mentioned how these things didnt need to be voted on. everyone was up in arms over same sex marriage when they wanted the vote of the people to stand.

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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:36:19 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

As long as "In God we trust" is the official US motto, then one should expect to see it displayed.

That was added during the Red Scare.  It's not handed down from yore.

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:40:40 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl...that is no different than king george telling the church that since the church wont let him divorce, then he will create a new one, and making the old religion illegal.

King Henry VIII

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:48:57 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

why isnt the ACLU up in arms over school schedules being allowed to change because a group wants to be allowed to pray?


Actually, I agree with you here, and maybe you should contact the ACLU, get some folks together and sue your local school district.

If people want to pray, and want to teach their kids to pray, they can do it at home and at church, or teach them to pray silently in their seats. Individual kids could ask for a hall-pass to do their sectarian prayers if those prayers require a set time, and then make up any work/lecture they missed while they were off praying. Heck, schedule them a 'study hall' during that period, but don't reschedule the whole school so they can go to pray.

(In case anyone is interested, I grew up Catholic -- I went to public school through 6th grade and went to my church's mandatory Wednesday catechism classes. I was released from study hall, walked 1/2 mile to a nearby school, signed in with the catechism monitor to prove that I'd actually gone to catechism and not just skipped study hall, and did my Wednesday classes while the rest of my class did homework -- then I went home and did my homework... so it can work without disrupting everyone else's day or week!)

I understand that some religions have pretty strict codes about how and when they pray. Great. If you want to attend a public school, it has to be understood that once you enter that building, there aren't any special concessions just because your holy men say you have to bow down at 10, 12, and 2, or say prayers before every meal, or dunk your food and wash it before you eat, or only eat food that has been blessed by Guru Gurugugu. The other option is to start a private school where you can incorporate your version of prayer into your daily class time -- or homeschool, which is an option quite a few folk on a number of different paths are using to control their kids' spiritual practices in the face of a (required) secular school system.

Honestly, this harkens back to another discussion last week about public displays -- When someone is in public, it is usually best to show some common sense and good manners, and realize that the whole bloody world doesn't revolve around hir and hir issues. Find a way to do it privately, so it doesn't interrupt everyone else's day, and then get on with your spirit-worship in your own space and at your own time.

Bon Merde!

DC

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:54:14 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

Firm...you dun did Bubba proud!!!



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RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 4:57:48 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Its not my local school district. and since i did homeschool my son, it not an issue for me. But, as i said before, the more they can push around one group, the more that group will be pushed. I grew up catholic as well. we had catechism in school (Our Lady of Perpetual Help). My faith in that religion was shattered by the time i was 13. My faith in a higher being, karma, ect, will never be gone. Just because some men wish to deviate from what they preach never stopped me from believing that there is something.. more.




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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 5:01:07 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

(Our Lady of Perpetual Help)


BEENIE WEENIES!! The Catholic Church I went to in Bumfuck, NY was called Our Lady of Perpetual Help! *LOL*

DC

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 5:06:06 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

As long as "In God we trust" is the official US motto, then one should expect to see it displayed.

That was added during the Red Scare.  It's not handed down from yore.


the term Red Scare denotes two distinct periods of strong anti-Communism: the First Red Scare, from 1917 to 1920, and the Second Red Scare, from 1947 to 1957.

quote:

Legal status
Use of the motto on circulating coinage is required by law. While several laws come into play, the act of May 18, 1908, is most often cited as requiring the motto (even though the cent and nickel were excluded from that law, and the nickel did not have the motto added until 1938). Since 1938, all coins have borne the motto. The use of the motto was permitted, but not required, by an 1873 law. The motto was added to paper money over a period from 1957 to 1966.[10]


The phrase was already being used before the "Red Scare"

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 5:07:25 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

(Our Lady of Perpetual Help)


BEENIE WEENIES!! The Catholic Church I went to in Bumfuck, NY was called Our Lady of Perpetual Help! *LOL*

DC


LOL. gotta be a yankee thing. Mine was in watering hole NJ!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 5:26:29 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45


Once again, theirs is not a belief, but a lack of one. The absence of religious phrases is not the 'presence' of atheism. When you can accept that truth, you can understand this issue. But I am not holding my breath.



Whether you believe there is a god or believe there is no god, you believe. To not have a belief system you would basically have to be absolutely neutral. As in "I don't think one way or the other or give a fuck one way or the other" That equals no belief.



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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 5:44:19 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

As long as "In God we trust" is the official US motto, then one should expect to see it displayed.

That was added during the Red Scare.  It's not handed down from yore.


the term Red Scare denotes two distinct periods of strong anti-Communism: the First Red Scare, from 1917 to 1920, and the Second Red Scare, from 1947 to 1957.

quote:

Legal status
Use of the motto on circulating coinage is required by law. While several laws come into play, the act of May 18, 1908, is most often cited as requiring the motto (even though the cent and nickel were excluded from that law, and the nickel did not have the motto added until 1938). Since 1938, all coins have borne the motto. The use of the motto was permitted, but not required, by an 1873 law. The motto was added to paper money over a period from 1957 to 1966.[10]


The phrase was already being used before the "Red Scare"


Yeah, but it wasn't made the Official Motto until... I'm going from memory here... either 1955 or 1956.


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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 5:54:36 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Whether you believe there is a god or believe there is no god, you believe. To not have a belief system you would basically have to be absolutely neutral. As in "I don't think one way or the other or give a fuck one way or the other" That equals no belief.


Semantics. There is still no organized belief structure around atheism. You just choose not to beleive as others do.


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 6:01:35 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45


Once again, theirs is not a belief, but a lack of one. The absence of religious phrases is not the 'presence' of atheism. When you can accept that truth, you can understand this issue. But I am not holding my breath.



Whether you believe there is a god or believe there is no god, you believe. To not have a belief system you would basically have to be absolutely neutral. As in "I don't think one way or the other or give a fuck one way or the other" That equals no belief.




Sure, but I think it's important to keep clear the distinction between a belief and a belief system. Not to be overly pedantic, but a belief system generally means a structure of interlocking beliefs that a person uses as a template and a guide for how they live their lives. People make choices in their lives based on what their belief system tells them is appropriate.

A belief is simply... one belief. I believe that Los Lobos is by far the best live rock and roll band in the world, but that belief doesn't affect the way I live my life at all. Except on the night of the show, of course. And by the same token, I think very few atheists make major life decisions based upon their belief that there is no god. They just... live their lives.


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In the forest of the night
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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 6:04:36 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		soooo.. since its the national motto, why cant it be on buildings and money?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol ... - 7/20/2009 6:07:01 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Irrespective of the legal issues, preventing someone from expressing their beliefs is a negative. Atheists have a belief in the lack of a God or Creator. By not allowing, or preventing all cases of any mention of religion, or the Diety, atheists are indeed encouraging their beliefs, and minimizing the beliefs of others.


Once again, theirs is not a belief, but a lack of one. The absence of religious phrases is not the 'presence' of atheism. When you can accept that truth, you can understand this issue. But I am not holding my breath.


No, you hold the belief that there is no God.

Firm

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