RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center

RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 2:06:01 PM)
quote: Barker said the foundation had been waiting for the right case to challenge "In God We Trust ." He said government actions could be challenged on state-church grounds if they had specific religious agendas. In this case, he said, backers of Lungren's plan have provided "the smoking guns" by giving specific, overt religious reasons for doing the engraving. And he is entitled to his opinion. I happen to recall the opinions of many when they started talking about desegrating the schools. Barker may be right, the people may be right... and news laws have been made to be struck down later. I thank thats what religion understands. And the rest dont get.

DomKen -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 2:19:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Seperation of church and state was mentioned in a letter from Jefferson, not in the 1st Amendment. "It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine on a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history.... The establishment clause [of the First Amendment] has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly forty years.... There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the Framers intended to build a wall of separation [between church and state].... The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or the intent of the Framers." (Associate Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist, Wallace v. Jafree, 1985.) Rehnquist's opinion you quote from is a dissent. IOW he lost and his opinion in this matter is not precedent. This like much of what you have quoted in this thread has the unmistable stench of David Barton a liar who has been peddling his completely made up version of US history for decades. If you had bothered to take the time to read what i have posted, you will notice i have posted on BOTH sides of the issue. Again, I have stated it matters little to me either way. Slide God, Zeus, Ra, Isis, whatever name you want, wont change the fact that i need to do business, and i may have to do it in that building. The name that goes up on a building wont change my beliefs one bit. I do not know who Barton is. I have merely researched as topics came up. Perhaps if your smelling a stench, you need to investigate where its coming from. As I said the stench is coming from the quotes you use. Any quote making Jefferson look like a faithful christian is simply distorted or made up. I did see you posted the July 2 quote from Adams without supplying the full context which is classic Barton.

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 2:44:32 PM)
LOL.. again your labeling me with a brush that i know nothing about. are any of the quotes i supplied made up?

rulemylife -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 3:08:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The OP initiated this thread after hearing about the words on the outside of the Visitors Center. yet, no one mentioned anything about the same words being inscribed on the inside of the building. makes me wonder are we being herded to see only what some want us to see and not the whole picture. You've made reference to this in an earlier post and I'm not sure what you are talking about. There was no mention in the link of inside or outside, only prominent places throughout, and how would that make a difference? From the article: If Rep. Dan Lungren gets his way, Congress will spend nearly $100,000 to engrave the words "In God We Trust " and the Pledge of Allegiance in prominent spots at the Capitol Visitor Center.

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 3:17:29 PM)
This is, apparently what you refer too, and, you were right, it was cut off from the other site. Does the full letter meet with your approval? quote: John Adams' famous letter of July 3, 1776, in which he wrote to his wife Abigail what his thoughts were about celebrating the Fourth of July is found on various web sites but is usually incorrectly quoted. Following is the exact text from his letter with his original spellings: quote: The Second Day of July 1776, will be the most memorable Epocha, in the History of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more. You will think me transported with Enthusiasm but I am not. I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will tryumph in that Days Transaction, even altho We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not. (The Book of Abigail and John: Selected Letters of the Adams Family, 1762-1784, Harvard University Press, 1975, 142). http://www1.american.edu/heintze/Adams.htm

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 3:37:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The OP initiated this thread after hearing about the words on the outside of the Visitors Center. yet, no one mentioned anything about the same words being inscribed on the inside of the building. makes me wonder are we being herded to see only what some want us to see and not the whole picture. You've made reference to this in an earlier post and I'm not sure what you are talking about. There was no mention in the link of inside or outside, only prominent places throughout, and how would that make a difference? From the article: If Rep. Dan Lungren gets his way, Congress will spend nearly $100,000 to engrave the words "In God We Trust " and the Pledge of Allegiance in prominent spots at the Capitol Visitor Center. your right, i misread that somehow. it is supposed to be in numerous places. along with bibles, pictures of clergy, Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance, a copy of the Pledge of Allegiance and the prayer said at the opening of the current Congress, ect.

DomKen -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 3:49:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl LOL.. again your labeling me with a brush that i know nothing about. are any of the quotes i supplied made up? I am not attacking you. I am simply pointing out that some of your quotes, gleaned from sites that claim that seperation of church and state was not the intent of the 1st amendment, are deceptive at best and completely made up at worst. You've already seen that the Adams July 2nd quote is used deceptively. Now for some of the others, note I'm only going after ones I know. I invite you or anyone else to investigate the rest. quote: Thomas Jefferson 3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event." --Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237. A mash up of two entirely seperate quotations by Jefferson and some simply made up stuff to boot. http://candst.tripod.com/studygd7d.htm quote: Patrick Henry Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." --The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii. This one is entirely made up. http://rationalrant.blogspot.com/2008/05/this-great-nation-was-founded-not-by.html And just to finish up here's the ones barton admits are made up but he and his followers still use. http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=126 I'm not attacking you tazzy but do urge you to take stuff like this that appears on the web with a bigger grain of salt.

rulemylife -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 4:28:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl your right, i misread that somehow. it is supposed to be in numerous places. along with bibles, pictures of clergy, Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance, a copy of the Pledge of Allegiance and the prayer said at the opening of the current Congress, ect. What you are failing to see is the distinction between items of historical significance and the promotion of religion. As far as the Pledge of Allegiance, it is no coincidence that the words "under God" were added just two years before 'In God We Trust" became the national motto. Both were the result of organized campaigns by various Christian groups, as was the campaign to first put the phrase on coins during the Civil War, as I gave a link to earlier. The wording added to the pledge has been held unconstitutional in several lower court rulings.

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 4:38:32 PM)
Then why not fight it all, instead of just some? some atheists (and i did NOT say all) believe any reference to god should be removed completely. quote: You've already seen that the Adams July 2nd quote is used deceptively. how was it deceptive? i would think the addition that they left off is the most powerful piece.

rulemylife -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 4:42:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Then why not fight it all, instead of just some? some atheists (and i did NOT say all) believe any reference to god should be removed completely. I'm assuming this part of your post was directed at me, and if so you'll have to elaborate because I'm not getting the question.

DomKen -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 4:44:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Then why not fight it all, instead of just some? some atheists (and i did NOT say all) believe any reference to god should be removed completely. quote: You've already seen that the Adams July 2nd quote is used deceptively. how was it deceptive? i would think the addition that they left off is the most powerful piece. I think they leave the part about toil etc. off to try and imply that Adams believed independence day should be an entirely religious holiday. The rest of the quote does not support that.

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 4:49:05 PM)
When will the star spangle banner be attacked?

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 4:55:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl When will the star spangle banner be attacked? There is no reason to attack the star-spangled banner, at least for this discussion. Oh say can you see By the dawns early light what so proudly we hail at the twilight's last gleaming whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight o'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming and the rockets red glare the bombs bursting in air gave proof through the night that our flag was still there oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave? Hmmm... I don't see any religious reference in there at all... do you? ...Nothing unconstitutional -- nothing that does not abide by the tenets set down in our founding documents... I find that it minimizes one's effectiveness in debate when one drifts into emotion-laden arguments with only the most tenuous connections to the debate at hand. smiles DC

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 4:57:07 PM)
quote: I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will tryumph in that Days Transaction, even altho We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not I dont view it as a religious holiday. Nor do i believe others are trying to imply it should be. Its a national holiday, and should be celebrated, because we declared our freedom. I see him talking about the days to come, hard work, lost lives, the gaining of freedom they so desired... the gains and costs... How the end will be worth it all, and that while we shall personally rue thes days, he is leaving his trust in god that we will not, that the ending will be worth all the sacrifice. I believe that many of these quotes, taken far out of context, twisted by both sides to try and prove what the founding fathers may have meant, or not meant, is a sad ploy. which is why i posted what i did with all those quotes, in response to the quotes posted about how they did not want religion in government. that is not my belief. they didnt want government in religion. religion was, and will always be, in government, just not in the paranoid way some groups believe.

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 5:00:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl When will the star spangle banner be attacked? There is no reason to attack the star-spangled banner, at least for this discussion. Oh say can you see By the dawns early light what so proudly we hail at the twilight's last gleaming whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight o'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming and the rockets red glare the bombs bursting in air gave proof through the night that our flag was still there oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave? Hmmm... I don't see any religious reference in there at all... do you? ...Nothing unconstitutional -- nothing that does not abide by the tenets set down in our founding documents... I find that it minimizes one's effectiveness in debate when one drifts into emotion-laden arguments with only the most tenuous connections to the debate at hand. smiles DC And where is that band who so vauntingly swore That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion, A home and a country should leave us no more! Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution. No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave: And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave. O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand Between their loved home and the war's desolation! Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation. Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.' And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave![10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner http://www.usflag.org/thenationalanthem.html

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 5:02:22 PM)
Hmm.. You know, I never learned the later verses to that... Interesting. DC

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 5:03:41 PM)
But it is there, and has been there since it was first written.

DomKen -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 5:07:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will tryumph in that Days Transaction, even altho We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not I dont view it as a religious holiday. Nor do i believe others are trying to imply it should be. Its a national holiday, and should be celebrated, because we declared our freedom. I see him talking about the days to come, hard work, lost lives, the gaining of freedom they so desired... the gains and costs... How the end will be worth it all, and that while we shall personally rue thes days, he is leaving his trust in god that we will not, that the ending will be worth all the sacrifice. I believe that many of these quotes, taken far out of context, twisted by both sides to try and prove what the founding fathers may have meant, or not meant, is a sad ploy. which is why i posted what i did with all those quotes, in response to the quotes posted about how they did not want religion in government. that is not my belief. they didnt want government in religion. religion was, and will always be, in government, just not in the paranoid way some groups believe. I can easily find you multiple sources trying to use that quote to make July 4th a relgious holiday. Simply google the first 8 or 10 words of the quote and the name 'barton.' and you'll see lots of them. BTW what do you feel about having used the made up quotes?

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 5:12:48 PM)
Thats why i site sources. The Jefferson is a made up one, but from more than just two. When i do list sources, i do try and not use those affiliated with Religious or, for this argument, atheists ties, unless thats what the quote is about. And you missed my point. You can quote all day long, as someone can quote back to you. It doesnt solve the problem. Im sure you can, however, if i dont read it that way, it doesnt matter to me. As i have said before, i dont know barton, i dont follow him on line or off. The one pertaining to Jefferson was a mash of things he did say, just not all at the same time. The one on Adams was correct, just not complete. Often quotes arent given completely. I didnt see how what he said and didnt get quoted shows anything other than omitting the reference to god. On the panel of the northwest interior wall is an excerpt from "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom, 1777", except for the last sentence, which is taken from a letter of August 28, 1789, to James Madison:[citation needed] quote: Almighty God hath created the mind free...All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens...are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion...No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively. The quotes from the panel of the northeast interior wall are from multiple sources. The first sentence, beginning "God who gave...", is from "A Summary View of the Rights of British America". The second, third and fourth sentences are from Notes on the State of Virginia. The fifth sentence, beginning "Nothing is more...", is from Jefferson's autobiography. Historian Garry Wills has said that this excerpt is "misleadingly truncated", because Jefferson's original sentence continued with the argument that free blacks and whites "cannot live in the same government" The sixth sentence, beginning "Establish the law...", is from an August 13, 1790, letter to George Wythe. The final sentence is from a letter of January 4, 1786, to George Washington. quote: God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than these people are to be free. Establish the law for educating the common people. This it is the business of the state to effect and on a general plan. But, it is an acurate quote of what is printed at the Jefferson Memorial. Sorry, the cats love helping me post.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 7:38:22 PM)
OK, since this thread has turned into nothing but a quote fight, I'll toss one of my own. "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the christian religion." Treaty of Tripoli, ratified unanimously by the United States Senate and signed by President John Adams in 1797.

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