RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (Full Version)

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Arpig -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 11:32:36 PM)

Very appropriate avatar for the post



FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 4:37:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Very appropriate avatar for the post

hehe.

Good catch, Arpig.

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 4:53:13 AM)

FR:

I'm going to be busy today, and likely won't have much opportunity to post.

However, I did want to say a few things:

1. I believe in the separation of church and state.

2. I've made the claim that atheism is a "religion" for the purposes of the discussion of the separation of church and state, and posted a link in support of this position. No one has seriously disputed this, although many have disputed that atheism is a a "religion" in many other senses (psychologically, and socially) or even a "belief system".

Not the same issue, in my mind, for this discussion. It is, however, a fruitful area of discussion for another thread, devoted to that particular issue, and one - when and if I have the time and motivation - I may start to continue that aspect of the discussion.

3. As Racquelle has pointed out, gathering stats on the percentage of lawsuits over church and state issues is not an easy task, but now it is one that interests me. I think it's another fruitful and interesting area to research. I believe that there is something to be said for the apparent desire to eliminate all aspects of public displays of religious belief by some groups. This touches on the "church and state" issue - actually, it's the superset for the issue.

If anyone thinks that I've left their particular question or issue unresolved, let me know and I'll attempt to give you a sense of completion. [:)]

Firm



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 6:50:18 AM)

quote:

Show me an atheist who is not a Human Secularist (or Secular Humanist).

Firm


Ah... I'm not a Secular Humanist. I tend to gravitate towards either spiritual humanism, Illuminance Collectivism, or Energetic Collectivism, but I'm definitely not a secular humanist.

DC



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 7:11:19 AM)

quote:

Thus, logically, if the State stands by "a-theists" it would be promoting ONE body of religious thought... ONE doctrine -- which, again, IS unconstituational.


Ah.. sorry... wrong again.

There is both explicit and implicit atheism (an implicit atheist just doesn't consider the possibility of god. An explicit atheist actively denies the possibility of god). There is Secular Humanism, that upholds reason, ethics, justice and specifically rejects supernatural or spiritual intrusion into moral reflection or decision-making. 

There is Spiritual Humanism, which accepts that there may be an energy beyond the physical existence (the spirit) and which embraces ritual and celebration to mark the passage of time and key events of life, but which does not believe that spirit translates to the necessity of some diety or external controlling force.

There is Illuminist Collectivism, which also believes that there is an underlying energy that exists in all things, which some call 'spirit', and which is gathered into a collective consciousness that is unbounded by time and space and is contributed to by the experiences of each thing that exists throughout the universe, but which is not, of itself, conscious or aware -- sort of like an balancing scale of energy and experiences from which every living thing can draw and deposits automatically. Illuminist Collectivism believes that an individual is generated out of the pool of universal energy according to the balance needed, and for a specific purpose for which only that person can serve. If a person fails to serve hir purpose in a lifetime, the universe will continue to generate energy for that purpose for as long as it is needed, and energy released during death is not kept intact, but broken up into experiential energy and disbursed across the entire pool of available energy.

There is also Energetic Collectivism, which believes that there is no spirit or soul, but is based on Einstein's Law of Conservation of Energy, and so believes that the Universe functions because its energy is constantly re-pooled and re-cycled, but that we have only one lifetime to make our mistakes, learn from them, and effect change before we revert to energy and lose any purpose that we've created for ourselves, because there is no soul, so our energy and the impulses of our mind scatter as soon as our consciousness no longer holds them together.

And that's just the 4 atheist concepts that I'm most familiar with... so.. you were saying about one doctrine???

DC



FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 7:50:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Show me an atheist who is not a Human Secularist (or Secular Humanist).

Firm


Ah... I'm not a Secular Humanist. I tend to gravitate towards either spiritual humanism, Illuminance Collectivism, or Energetic Collectivism, but I'm definitely not a secular humanist.

DC


DC,

Clear enough, although I'm not clear about either Illuminance Collectivism or Energetic Collectivism.

Is atheism a basic part of either?

Firm



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 8:30:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


DC,

Clear enough, although I'm not clear about either Illuminance Collectivism or Energetic Collectivism.

Is atheism a basic part of either?

Firm


Thanks for asking.

Short answer, Yes, they're all fundamentally atheistic --

Longer answer-- Illuminance Collectivism leans more towards implicit atheism -- there isn't an active -denial- of a god... it just doesn't fit anywhere in the architecture of the philosophy. There's no room or need for a deity in how the concepts of the philosophy are shaped.

Energetic Collectivism is what Illuminance Collectivism would be if the denial of deity were more active. It's actually explicit atheism, where they actively deny that there is any possibility of a deific influence on the process.

The challenge for people who are deity-oriented is that implicit atheism seems to leave a door opened for them to try to push deific concepts into the picture, but the reality is that none of these expressions have any room for a 'god' concept, whether or not they actively deny one.




WoodenPaddle -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 8:51:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodenPaddle

And like I said, I've had all this happen several times , in several states and places.
Truth be told, the US cities may be a bit enlightened, but the whole countryside is stuck in a decidedly unhealthy religious fanaticism...in my opinion that is.


And your opinion may well be based on confirmation bias perceptions, and misunderstanding about the culture, not necessarily the "religion" in small towns.

Firm



When one comes across those places, less then 150 people there, but 8 churches, and one is ignored because you didn't visit any of them during the Sunday services, when one is ignored in stores because one would rather spend the time outdoors on Sunday with a ladyfriend one is visiting, and is told that is indeed the reason, one could get biased...or is it perhaps a right understanding?

Same goes for those churches...a friend of mine had a shop in sextoys etc, expanded into Xrated movies, so he bought a piece of land somewhere in the middle of nowhere, with over 2 hours drive to anywhere to build it.
Next he knows, the land next to it on both sides is bought by some religious group and they build a church on one side and place a 10 foot cross on the other side, with billboards around it with texts like "Jezus Saves"
And then it gets even funnier, they start complaining that he's built his establishment next to a church, local government makes him sell out.
Great, those nice peacefull people eh?

Please...don't put it down on MISunderstanding, I've been interested in religions, have seen, read, spoken to people, studied catholicism, protestants, hinduism, islam, buddhism (not a religion in the true sense of word btw) shintoism, atavism, and some more...and the christians found in little places are NOT an enjoyable sort overall...biblebelt villages are the worst kind of place for someone who can respect anothers belief, but expects some for his own, or lack of it.



sirsholly -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 9:36:54 AM)

quote:

When one comes across those places, less then 150 people there, but 8 churches, and one is ignored because you didn't visit any of them during the Sunday services,
now just a freaking minute here. How in the hell did the less than 150 people know that you were not in one of the seven other churches? Seems they themselves would have to be skipping services to keep a peep on you. [:)]



GotSteel -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 10:40:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

My suggestion to this mess: ask for a private company to do the engraving at no charge, then tell the atheists not to look.


That's fine as long as I get to put a sign that says God isn't real next to it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

All this complaining but most are forgetting the make up of this country...at least it is understandable...and for crying out loud why not let tradition stand. When the majority of American are atheists then it will be time to tear down the mention of God...damn get a life until then.

Butch



"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. " Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."--- Benjamin Franklin, Works, Vol. VII, p. 75


"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785


We should let the tradition and law set forth by our founding fathers stand and maintain a separation of church state.





tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 10:53:35 AM)

1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.


"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.


http://christianity.about.com/od/independenceday/a/foundingfathers.htm

These same founding fathers who believed in god....

Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

Many of the founding fathers believed this.... they didnt have to agree it was the same exact god... the same exact religion... but they all believed



kdsub -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 11:04:11 AM)

All reasonable statements by thinking men...not rejecting the existence of God but expressing doubts through reason as we all do...I'll bet even the Pope has had a doubt or two.

I'll bet if you are honest with yourself you have had a few doubts whether God exists or not.

But remember all of these men signed a document using the words " In the year of our Lord"

Butch



Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 11:05:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Many of the founding fathers believed this.... they didnt have to agree it was the same exact god... the same exact religion... but they all believed


Oh so by your logic then, discrimination is fine, so long as its not against someone who believes in a deity. Is that correct?



tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 11:07:01 AM)

Is that deity not their form of a god or a creator?



Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 11:09:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Is that deity not their form of a god or a creator?


Not relevant. Atheists do not believe in one. So it would seem you're suggesting that it's ok to discriminate against them.



tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 11:29:36 AM)

I am suggesting that the founding fathers did in fact believe, and deeply, in a god/creator/sumpreme being... so much so that many times they have talked about the influence said "being" had/has on our lives and our government.

Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.




Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 11:32:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I am suggesting that the founding fathers did in fact believe, and deeply, in a god/creator/sumpreme being... so much so that many times they have talked about the influence said "being" had/has on our lives and our government.


Then how do you explain their efforts to bring about the separation of church and state?



tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 11:37:19 AM)

Seperation of church and state was mentioned in a letter from Jefferson, not in the 1st Amendment.

"It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine on a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history.... The establishment clause [of the First Amendment] has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly forty years.... There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the Framers intended to build a wall of separation [between church and state].... The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or the intent of the Framers."
(Associate Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist, Wallace v. Jafree, 1985.)



Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 11:39:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Seperation of church and state was mentioned in a letter from Jefferson, not in the 1st Amendment.


I said nothing about the 1st amendment. I said "their efforts to bring about the separation of church and state."

And by attempting to clarify where it was does not EXPLAIN why they felt it was necessary.



tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/21/2009 12:09:08 PM)

Everyone has hammered at the fact that the First Amendment is the core to this whole argument, that the founding fathers wanted a seperation between church and state, which just isnt the case, as shown by example after example of their beliefs, feelings and even ruling. No one can make atheists believe in something.. or anything.. that is their choice to do so. as it is someone elses choice to believe in god, someone else to believe in a goddess.. someone to believe in allah. Atheists chose to believe in... well... from previous posts, even they cant agree on what they do or do not believe in. Those are not a religion, they deny they are a religion, so, to me, why they have a part in this is confusing.

quote:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


The beginning of the Declaration of Independence

Previous posts have shown the thoughts of the founders in regards to religion and god/supreme being/creator.

quote:

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Someone mentioned a civil war over this... im thinking it was tongue in cheek. But, i can see how this could end up as a war of sorts.

The OP initiated this thread after hearing about the words on the outside of the Visitors Center. yet, no one mentioned anything about the same words being inscribed on the inside of the building. makes me wonder are we being herded to see only what some want us to see and not the whole picture.

Here is a site that breaks down the first admendment by definition. makes an interesting read. maybe we should start another thread based upon that site, if any care to catually read it.

http://razorskiss.net/wp/index.php?p=17



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