RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center

RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:12:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: Irrespective of the legal issues, preventing someone from expressing their beliefs is a negative. You are being intentionally obtuse. The absence of some carving depicting your God on a building does NOT prevent you from expressing your beliefs. You can express your beliefs with or without the damned words on the building -- what those words on the building do is FORCE those who do NOT believe in God to accept that a PUBLIC OFFICE displays wording enforcing a particular religious belief over any other "In God We Trust". It doesn't say "In God FIRM Trusts" It says "In God WE Trust"... implying that anyone related by concatenative assemblage to that building (in this case, anyone who is governed by the Federal Government) believes in God... and I do NOT and I -do- resent someone else essentially speaking on -my- behalf, as if I am incapable of speaking for myself about my absence of belief in such a thing. If there is NO carving on the building, you and yours are free to enter that building and believe any way you see fit, and explain to others how you believe, as it suits you, and there is NO presumption that you are one certain way or another, until you say so. Rather than preventing your expression of your beliefs, a blank canvas gives you complete control and autonomy on how you express your beliefs AND it leaves the door open for others to similarly express their own beliefs in their own way, with no presupposition as to their relationship to the State's "God". DC I'm not being obtuse at all. I'm pointing out the converse of an atheist's point. An atheist who demands that I can not express my religion is practicing religious suppression, and trumping their rights over my rights. Is there an answer to this conundrum? Not really. But just because there is no easy answer doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. If it didn't exist, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Firm

willowspirit -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:14:24 PM)
Enforcement of a Specific DENOMINATION, CREED, DOCTRINE, or religious DOGMA IS unconstitutional. This includes "a-theism". quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: It's freedom OF religion... Not freedom FROM it. Actually, Freedom of Religion incorporates the absence within the scope of the entirety. If one has true freedom of religion, then it is a pre-requisite that the absence of religion be on one end of that spectrum of possible options. Otherwise, it is an enforcement of religion, which is unconstitutional. DC Enforcement of a Specific DENOMINATION, CREED, DOCTRINE, or religious DOGMA IS unconstitutional.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:15:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 Whether you believe there is a god or believe there is no god, you believe. To not have a belief system you would basically have to be absolutely neutral. As in "I don't think one way or the other or give a fuck one way or the other" That equals no belief. Semantics. There is still no organized belief structure around atheism. You just choose not to beleive as others do. I call BS on this one. Show me an atheist who is not a Human Secularist (or Secular Humanist). Firm

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:18:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY No, you hold the belief that there is no God. Again you're mistaken. They don't hold a belief. They "don't believe" in God.

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:19:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I call BS on this one. Show me an atheist who is not a Human Secularist (or Secular Humanist). You can call BS on whatever you like, doesn't mean you're right.

willowspirit -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:27:25 PM)
Nope. The logic is sound. I ran just ran the symbolic logic past my professor. To clarify we added a caveat --- Theists have MANY variants of the theism "there is a God". If so, why? Who? When? What does it/He/She want with us? etc., etc. "A-theists" have none such variants. Their stand renders the other dogmatic and doctrinal questions moot. IE. "There is no God." Thus, logically, if the State stands by "a-theists" it would be promoting ONE body of religious thought... ONE doctrine -- which, again, IS unconstituational. quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: willowspirit It's freedom OF religion... Not freedom FROM it. The Founders of this country had NO intention to establish a particular sect -- or creed/denomination. And sought constitutional protection OF RELIGION and it's proliferation. "In God We Trust" IS constitutional -- as long as it doesn't mandate a state "approved" definition of God in accordance with any particular sect's doctrines over any other sect. Contrary to common thought -- and to state my agreement with what others have said -- Atheists / Atheism IS NOT by definition "without A Theism" -- or a set of religious beliefs. They seem to have VERY definite religious beliefs... ... and if the State embraces the Theism of atheists, that IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL. So, if you say that the purpose of freedom of religion was not to establish a particular sect or religious belief over any other, and then say that atheism is a religious belief, you are contradicting yourself in arguing that "In God We trust" is constitutional. ________________________________________________________________ We win. Go suck a turnip.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:32:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I call BS on this one. Show me an atheist who is not a Human Secularist (or Secular Humanist). You can call BS on whatever you like, doesn't mean you're right. Yanno, Loki ... simply making proclamations that you are right and everyone else is wrong doesn't really make you look all that intelligent, able, or insightful. I suspect it's your last defense, because every time you've butted heads with me in a discussion, you've being out maneuvered, and had to resort to ad hominem attacks. When I called you on those, you have no other course of action other than making contradictory statements just for the supposed irritation factor. Man up. Enter into a discussion with an open mind, and with the concept that you might learn that people think differently, and have different points of view - which might be just as valid as yours. Hell, you might even learn something. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:35:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willowspirit We win. Go suck a turnip. [sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:58:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willowspirit Thus, logically, if the State stands by "a-theists" it would be promoting ONE body of religious thought... ONE doctrine -- which, again, IS unconstituational. This would be correct if the atheists wanted the wall to say "there is no God." But they don't. They simply want it blank. And that promotes nothing.

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 6:59:37 PM)
why does a group who believe in nothing become so upset about something that, according to them, does not exist?

Racquelle -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:00:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Isn't making a law to support atheistic beliefs (no signs of any religion, all religions are nonsense and shouldn't be allowed) supporting one belief system above another? Firm To support atheistic beliefs, the sign would have to say "There is No God". The state has an obligation by constitutional mandate to avoid promoting or hindering any religious belief, or the lack thereof. Freedom of Religion also means Freedom FROM Religion. I am a rather deeply devoted Christian of beliefs that are quite dissimilar to what many people assume when they hear the term Christian. I do not want the state to promote my beliefs over others, nor theirs above mine. The state is to remain neutral - so that each of us feels no state pressure to ascribe to any particular set of beliefs. We are each then free to pursue happiness. What many fail to understand is that for the state to get into the business of supporting any set of religious beliefs puts those of faith in danger - it would take only a small change in leadership to outlaw the beliefs that were lawful just the year before. Additionally, I do not wish the state to interfere in the activities of my church.

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:04:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Yanno, Loki ... simply making proclamations that you are right and everyone else is wrong doesn't really make you look all that intelligent, able, or insightful. Here's where we get into the basis for your confusion. I never said "I was right and you're wrong." I said "It doesn't make you right." There is a big difference there, you're just not seeing it. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I suspect it's your last defense, because every time you've butted heads with me in a discussion, you've being out maneuvered, and had to resort to ad hominem attacks. That's funny, because I've rarely ever 'butted heads' with you. I've simply witnessed others do so. Yet again, you seem to think I was referring to previous engagements between you and me. I wasn't. But thanks for making an effort anyway. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Man up. Enter into a discussion with an open mind, and with the concept that you might learn that people think differently, and have different points of view - which might be just as valid as yours. I'd make the same suggestion to you. Your stance here seems to be one of profoundly flawed logic. Much like the previous poster I replied to. However, like most religion-supporting people, you only see that which suits you...not what suits others. Let me spell it out one more time: To have "In God we trust" on taxpayer-owned propery would, to some indicate an endorsement of Christianity. To have "In Allah we trust" on that same property would, to some indicate an endorsement of Islam. To have "There is no God in which to trust" would, to some indicate an endorsement of atheism. To simple have a blank wall would not indicate an endorsement of anything. Thus everyone is equal. Clear enough?

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:06:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl why does a group who believe in nothing become so upset about something that, according to them, does not exist? Because they don't like to be discriminated against, which is what happens when their tax money gets used to endorse a religion they do not believe in. It's 'kinda' like how Christians would get upset if they learned their tax money were being spent on.....oh I don't know....abortions for the under-priveledged.

Racquelle -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:07:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY An atheist who demands that I can not express my religion is practicing religious suppression, and trumping their rights over my rights. In this case, no one is demanding that YOU not express YOUR beliefs. What is being demanded is that the state not express the beliefs on your behalf. The state does not have religious beliefs of its own.

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:08:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Racquelle In this case, no one is demanding that YOU not express YOUR beliefs. What is being demanded is that the state not express the beliefs on your behalf. The state does not have religious beliefs of its own. You're wasting your time. He has a fundamental disconnect between what a blank wall would actually be 'promoting' and what he thinks it would be promoting.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:09:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl why does a group who believe in nothing become so upset about something that, according to them, does not exist? Because religious fanatics have a long history of trying to force other people to live in accordance with their belief systems, and the best way to keep them from interfering with other people's lives is to not let them get a foot in the door to begin with.

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:11:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl why does a group who believe in nothing become so upset about something that, according to them, does not exist? Because religious fanatics have a long history of trying to force other people to live in accordance with their belief systems, and the best way to keep them from interfering with other people's lives is to not let them get a foot in the door to begin with. Oh good point. I forgot that one. Anyone remember that religious persecution is why the settlers came here to begin with? How about the Salem Witch Trials? Anyone remember learning about those?

FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:12:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda Sure, but I think it's important to keep clear the distinction between a belief and a belief system. Not to be overly pedantic, but a belief system generally means a structure of interlocking beliefs that a person uses as a template and a guide for how they live their lives. People make choices in their lives based on what their belief system tells them is appropriate. A belief is simply... one belief. I believe that Los Lobos is by far the best live rock and roll band in the world, but that belief doesn't affect the way I live my life at all. Except on the night of the show, of course. And by the same token, I think very few atheists make major life decisions based upon their belief that there is no god. They just... live their lives. Panda, A "belief" is not held in a vacuum. One belief has an affect on many other beliefs. Such a major belief as the belief of the absence of a deity affects almost all other parts of an individual's belief system and world view. For all people do indeed have a "belief system". You can isolate a particular belief for discussion, but you can not isolate it from all other aspects of how you see life, what you expect from life and others, and how you expect the universe to operate. Firm

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:27:30 PM)
Does our national motto, “In God We Trust,” appear in the Capitol Visitor Center? What about other religious references? Yes, our national motto does appear in the Capitol Visitor Center in the House Theater exhibit. References to religion and faith are included in the context of several historic exhibits, and several religious items appear in the displays. Some examples include Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance in its entirety; a copy of the Pledge of Allegiance and the prayer said at the opening of the current Congress; a copy of the Bible used to administer the oath of office to Senators until 1882; portraits of the first House and Senate chaplains; information about religious services regularly held in the Capitol in the 1800s, and an unaltered display of the U.S. Constitution highlighting the First Amendment which established our country’s right to the freedom of religion. http://www.visitthecapitol.gov/Visit/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions/#q24 and you are all worried about words on a wall?

Racquelle -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 7:27:40 PM)
We lose the point of the entire discussion when we say it is about Atheists versus Religion. It is about citizens who support the Constitution versus those who wish to circumvent it, regardless of their well intentioned reasons for wishing to circumvent it. Though it is often groups of organized Atheists who bring the suits, they do it to support our Constitution and preserve our rights to believe what we choose.

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