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RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 11:15:36 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And Gates is supposed to be a professor of Black studies, well known and renowed for his knowledge of this subject, as well as rights and laws pertaining too.

There were many rights here... and many wrongs. The Cops did their job. Gates pushed and pushed because he felt a bruise to his ego. In turn, he bruised the cop's ego. The Cop arrested him on a lawful charge after warning him.

Here is the gist of the whole thing.

Both men had their ego's bruised. Why is the Cop's actions any more wrong than Gates? So many here have pointed out the "racial" issue.

Its not race... its testosterone!!!!!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 221
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 11:24:34 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Efforts should be aimed wherever there is statistical evidence that its appropriate. that could be black males, white males, asian females..whatever. Turning it into a race issue is nonsense.


It is an issue no matter who is targeted.  It is legally discrimination and not permitted under the law.  It is a race issue because blacks, Hispanics, and lately Muslims are often unduly targeted.

quote:


Presumption of innocence is within a courtroom, not in investigating a crime or preventing one.


Presumption of innocence is a specific legal doctrine in the courtroom but it is also a general legal theory dating back centuries. 

Without presumption of innocence there would be no need for requiring probable cause.

quote:



Yes, "probable cause" has an additional hurdle..defending your investigation from "profiling" charges. That hurdle shouldnt exist.


Maybe that should be rephrased to say profiling shouldn't exist, then no need for profiling charges.

That all being said, I don't believe this was a case a of profiling.

Gates overreacted.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/25/2009 11:26:05 AM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 11:49:01 AM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ColonelKurtz

*sigh* I'm getting confused now because all of the apparent eye witnesses on this thread appear to be changing the alledged facts and circumstances to me.

Firstly, was he or was he not on the grounds of his own property? Either within the house itself or on the porch? And secondly, were the profanities aggrivated as such?


Here are the 2 police reports.

Not sure what I think about them. I know they are supposed to be accurate... but I have seen some folks cover their asses too.

Even if he was loud and yelling, in his own residance he should not have been arrested.

The cardinal rule to not be hassled by the cops is to cooperate with them, dont get nasty, and don't be black. He failed in all three cases.

Why the officer called the university police beats the hell out of me. That part makes no sense.

Gwyn

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(in reply to ColonelKurtz)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:04:57 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe.. just because... possibly... he was yelling outside of his own residence?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 224
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:10:50 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColonelKurtz

*sigh* I'm getting confused now because all of the apparent eye witnesses on this thread appear to be changing the alledged facts and circumstances to me.

Firstly, was he or was he not on the grounds of his own property? Either within the house itself or on the porch? And secondly, were the profanities aggrivated as such?


Here are the 2 police reports.

Not sure what I think about them. I know they are supposed to be accurate... but I have seen some folks cover their asses too.

Even if he was loud and yelling, in his own residance he should not have been arrested.

The cardinal rule to not be hassled by the cops is to cooperate with them, dont get nasty, and don't be black. He failed in all three cases.

Why the officer called the university police beats the hell out of me. That part makes no sense.

Gwyn


Hi Gwyn...I would guess that a drivers license would have been called in as well to see if there were any outstanding warrants...but for sure a school ID would need to be checked because it is not the type of ID that is official... For instance I would think it could not be used as identification when renewing drivers licenses or getting a passport. It could easily be falsified.

Butch


_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 225
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:15:06 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I think it may have passed everyone's notice. But, the house was owned by the University, not Gates. I would go so far as to assume the Police may know this as well.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:16:48 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You keep telling me to do research when I have... Now unless the reports are false...which is a good possibility... they did see what to them could have been forced entry...Their initial actions were not only correct law but would have been incompetent to have done otherwise.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:18:10 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I wholeheartedly agree!! The last time I was sent to the lock-up



The last time?

Does this happen often with you Arpig?

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:24:59 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ColonelKurtz


If this can happen to a professor, I'd hate to think what would happen if Obama and the First Family if they locked themselves out of the White House!


Oh god, please no. That means we'd have to sit through another insufferable press conference.

(in reply to ColonelKurtz)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:29:43 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

and i cant believe you honestly think only blacks have had this experience! some of us can think for ourselves and grow to understand as we mature that not everything is racially motivated


Exactly. Any visible feature that someone doesnt like is a cause for discrimination, not just skin color. In the 60s you were just as likely to be harassed by cops in the south if you had long hair or if you were black.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:36:25 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		What is very interesting to me is the number of posts in this type of thread. I think most all are good people but fall into two categories.

One group feels slighted or frustrated with people for claiming racism at every interaction of blacks and whites. This frustration comes because they personally don’t see this racism in themselves… their children…their friends… or their neighborhoods. They believe most claims of racism are not justified and it is time blacks get over this bugaboo of racism and stand on their own accomplishments and stop blaming whites for their problems.

The other group feels racism still exists and they are frustrated that many well-meaning white people can’t see it. They feel the justice system is prejudice against African Americans as well as education and business. They are determined to point out and stamp out racism wherever it occurs.

Well I think the first group is right…but so is the second. Too bad we cannot walk in the others shoes for a while.

The fact that good people have trouble understanding each other when it comes to race means we have a long way to go before we can live with mutual respect.

BUT…It will take understanding of both groups...not just one

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/25/2009 12:39:27 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:38:28 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Efforts should be aimed wherever there is statistical evidence that its appropriate. that could be black males, white males, asian females..whatever. Turning it into a race issue is nonsense.


It is an issue no matter who is targeted.  It is legally discrimination and not permitted under the law.  It is a race issue because blacks, Hispanics, and lately Muslims are often unduly targeted.

quote:


Presumption of innocence is within a courtroom, not in investigating a crime or preventing one.


Presumption of innocence is a specific legal doctrine in the courtroom but it is also a general legal theory dating back centuries. 

Without presumption of innocence there would be no need for requiring probable cause.

quote:



Yes, "probable cause" has an additional hurdle..defending your investigation from "profiling" charges. That hurdle shouldnt exist.


Maybe that should be rephrased to say profiling shouldn't exist, then no need for profiling charges.

That all being said, I don't believe this was a case a of profiling.

Gates overreacted.





All "profiling" should be legal. It isnt discrmination, its intelligent allocation of resources. Something being illegal doesnt mean it isnt justifiable. Profiling is no more heinous than rating auto insurance by zip code or health insurance by smoking status.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:52:17 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		BS. Im half native american, half white. In fact, im less white that Gates.


Gates Takes a knock at "Nationalists"
From his audio interview at the Boston Globe:


first of all I'm half white myself. 56% white in my DNA. My father is 75% white. My wife of 25 years is white and my children are half white..." Nobody knows me as some lunatic black nationalist who's walking around beating up on white people



http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/07/22/no_charge_but_gates_case_seethes/?page=2

beneath the start of the story, there is an audio of "Gates talks about his arrest" Click and listen

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 12:58:57 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Hi tazzygirl...I don't understand how your post is an answer to my post...but I am sorta dense now and then...

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 1:04:30 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Because, Butch, to me its simple.

Here is a man who threw down the race card. His interviews dont mesh with the police reports. The Garvey's Ghost did a comparison on both, and the inconsistencies in Gates. The Ghost site is not racially motivated the way others may be. Take a look around and you will see what i mean.

This became a race issue only because Gates made it one.

http://garveys-ghost.blogspot.com/2009/07/gates-story-is-fishy.html

People who point to those who say it isnt a race issue because they are white are, themselves, racist. Just because i may appear to look white, doesnt mean i am, nor does it mean i have not been the victim of racists comments and slurs. Everyone has their breaking point. Gates discovered Crowley's and now he is whining about it.

Dont take my word, read the site.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 7/25/2009 1:22:38 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 1:12:10 PM   
Diiamond


Posts: 6
Joined: 5/26/2008
Status: offline 		Very well said. There seems to be a divide between that two groups that a thousand posts couldn't resolve. However, the divide seems to grow smaller some with each new generation. The lack of trust that fuels these fires kindled for hundreds of years. We can't think that it will have completely been put out with only one generation.

However, I can say that I really do believe that progress has been made. One, we can sit down and have these types of interchanges and this is a healthy thing for us to do. Two, my children are so far removed from understanding the depth of this issue that I sometimes have to wonder if their ignorance is actually bliss for them. I think it is. They aren't as suspicious as that incident with police making me and my teen friends 'get on the ground' with guns pointed at us has made me. They've never known an experience like that and I pray that they never do.

It's been great to participate. Thanks to all who have contributed!


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What is very interesting to me is the number of posts in this type of thread. I think most all are good people but fall into two categories.

One group feels slighted or frustrated with people for claiming racism at every interaction of blacks and whites. This frustration comes because they personally don’t see this racism in themselves… their children…their friends… or their neighborhoods. They believe most claims of racism are not justified and it is time blacks get over this bugaboo of racism and stand on their own accomplishments and stop blaming whites for their problems.

The other group feels racism still exists and they are frustrated that many well-meaning white people can’t see it. They feel the justice system is prejudice against African Americans as well as education and business. They are determined to point out and stamp out racism wherever it occurs.

Well I think the first group is right…but so is the second. Too bad we cannot walk in the others shoes for a while.

The fact that good people have trouble understanding each other when it comes to race means we have a long way to go before we can live with mutual respect.

BUT…It will take understanding of both groups...not just one

Butch


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 236
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 1:22:59 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

All "profiling" should be legal. It isnt discrmination, its intelligent allocation of resources. Something being illegal doesnt mean it isnt justifiable. Profiling is no more heinous than rating auto insurance by zip code or health insurance by smoking status.


I won't even touch that really bad analogy, but think about what you just said here.

Something illegal doesn't mean it is not justifiable?

Maybe so.

But do we want to authorize those charged with upholding the law to be able to break it when they feel it is justifiable?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 1:23:16 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		The Racial Profiling Lie

http://www.therightperspective.org/2009/07/24/the-racial-profiling-lie/


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 1:24:36 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

All "profiling" should be legal. It isnt discrmination, its intelligent allocation of resources. Something being illegal doesnt mean it isnt justifiable. Profiling is no more heinous than rating auto insurance by zip code or health insurance by smoking status.


I won't even touch that really bad analogy, but think about what you just said here.

Something illegal doesn't mean it is not justifiable?

Maybe so.

But do we want to authorize those charged with upholding the law to be able to break it when they feel it is justifiable?



nope, I didnt say we should. the laws should be changed.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we re... - 7/25/2009 1:26:24 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Its not race... its testosterone!!!!!


So was it 'testosterone' when the black congresswoman threw a similar fit when she was accosted by a captial hill security officer because she tried to side-step the security check point?


_____________________________

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'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 240
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