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RE: Cockiness - 7/25/2009 7:30:49 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
You know what the difference between arrogance and self-confidence is? Whether or not you're were actually right."


I think this is a big part of my problem - I'm incredibly distrustful of evidence. I try to avoid ever letting myself believe that I might be 'right'; I want to see things in terms of "probably might-as-well-be-right, given the amount of information I have and the amount of effort required to gather more" - but then, even that process can be taken so far meta that my head spins.

The thing is, I've had several situations in my formative years where I was provably right, but everyone else decided to believe that I was wrong - in some cases due to political expediency, in others because I was a bit sensitive as a lad, and it was just fun to rile me up. So I've also come up with a bit of a distrust of other people's ability to judge whether I'm right or not - which makes it doubly harder to trust my own instincts about whether I'm right, since without the ability to trust others I'm bound to be much more susceptible to self-affirming delusions and cognitive biases.

Does all this make any sense?

< Message edited by Ialdabaoth -- 7/25/2009 7:31:09 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Cockiness - 7/25/2009 11:19:11 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		Being single is a time when one might consider oneself to be a loser, like, "What is wrong with me?"

I dont know, but I would say being single does not necessarily mean something needs changing. The way I see it, if you are looking to meet a fit, that special someone, well, that will happen when it does and until then, try not to blame yourself. It does not mean you are lacking.

I had to look up misanthropic and I disagree, you dont sound like you are that to me. You sound like someone who considers this and that when dealing with the things of Life and I find that admirable.

Hang in there. I am sure one day, any day you could meet someone who would recognize all your wonderfulness and you will be happy for it.

Meantime, maybe put a shirt on. I personally tend to find disrobed shots tmi, no matter how nice the bod... then again, none of my business but that is my feeling.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Cockiness - 7/25/2009 11:37:55 PM   
Cuffkinks


Posts: 1780
Joined: 5/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone
your issue is not an abundance of humility, it is rather a lack of self-esteem.


Well, here's the real trick, then: what's self-esteem? Because, as I've mentioned, I know that I can do great things. I know that I have done great things. I just tend to not believe that people are going to believe that I can do great things.



What's self-esteem? Self-esteem is being yourself, believing in yourself, and not caring whether or not other people believe you can do great things.


_____________________________

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"I love you, Sir. You make my heart sing and my panties wet. What more could a girl ask for?" - hejira92

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(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 12:16:39 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuffkinks
What's self-esteem? Self-esteem is being yourself, believing in yourself, and not caring whether or not other people believe you can do great things.


Isn't that kind of like a company not worrying about marketing or advertisement because they really believe in the product?

(in reply to Cuffkinks)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 2:26:53 AM   
TurboJugend


Posts: 481
Joined: 6/15/2009
Status: offline
quote:

And the lack of cockiness


lack? I experience it different when I read your messages.
Although not cocky...you seem secure about yourself.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 3:28:23 AM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Ialdabaoth I think apocalypso on the first page had something very interesting to say and personally I agree with him.  What you are saying is in fact a form of arrogance in of itself, you are condemning people for having personality traits which make them appear as foolish human beings while at the same time bemoaning the fact that as you don't have these negative element s in your personality it is harder for you to appeal to women. In effect you are saying you are a much nicer person than other doms, whether you intended to say this or not I don't know but it is how it comes across to me and apparently one other intelligent person as well.
Your problem irrespective of that seems to be that you are an intelligent person who feels somewhat aggrieved because people aren't recognising your uniqueness and beautiful mind. That's tough most people have to deal with that you are not alone, what I can assure you of though is that cockiness emulated or otherwise is not the way to go you end up looking and sounding like a bore and attracting only other fellow bores. I've read quite a lot of your posts Ialdabaoth and while there is no doubt that you are an intelligent person I think that your relationship with religion has damaged you sort it out because it appears that it is this that is eating your self esteem. If it isn't this then what is it? Take a frank look at yourself. You are intelligent and seem like a reasonably good looking young man so what is dragging you down? Are you worries about the size of your penis have you any bodily scars or markings you are ashamed of, do you have a speech impediment, a problem regulating your moods e.t.c. If you are as confident of your abilities as you profess yourself to be then there must be another reason, the blessing of the internet means you don't have to be embarrasses [or at least much less so] in that case is there something that's been eroding your self worth?

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:09:09 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		FR

I have noticed over the years that there are a goodly amount of very attractive females along with other folks who appear to be drawn to those "cocky" lads with the "Bad Boy" image. I have also noticed conversely that about an equal number of very attractive ladies and others who are attracted to those who exhibit genuine humiloity and a good amount of gentlemanly behaviour includine honesty, courage, loyalty and honour. It sewems that we have the choice of what type of people we wish to attract and the sort pf person we want to be (not mimic but realy be)..


_____________________________

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 5:00:44 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I agree with IB. Were I the OP, I know which variety of female I would wish to attract.

To ME cocky is a glaring red neon sign over their heads that says, insecure asshole.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/26/2009 5:02:01 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 7:20:35 AM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Ialdabaoth I think apocalypso on the first page had something very interesting to say and personally I agree with him.  What you are saying is in fact a form of arrogance in of itself, you are condemning people for having personality traits which make them appear as foolish human beings while at the same time bemoaning the fact that as you don't have these negative element s in your personality it is harder for you to appeal to women. In effect you are saying you are a much nicer person than other doms, whether you intended to say this or not I don't know but it is how it comes across to me and apparently one other intelligent person as well.
The irony of this situation is that Iald quite obviously has got a lot to offer the right girl.  He's intelligent, creative, caring etc.


_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 8:35:17 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't know if this is still true of the OP but in the past he has talked a lot about feeling unable to dominate any woman who was not significantly shorter and lighter than him, giving him a small section to choose from since he isn't a physically big person.

If it is, then that is probably coming out. and there is no way that will come across as anything but what it is, insecurity.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 9:17:35 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		That the result impacts you in the end doesn't necessarily mean you changing your part of the equation is what needs to be done. I realize it's typically popularly ingrained in us now, (usually rightly so, in the interest of personal responsibility) that we should view things in a "we are the only common link of the problems we encounter", but I'm really having a hard time associating that with some of the results you've mentioned (like this member who, in private, took a decidedly different direction from the 2 days of flirting when your "dommy dom dom-ness" seemed in peril because of your habit to view things objectively).

Do you feel you've exceeded the chronological threshold for the thing you want to fall into your lap? Because I think that has a lot to do with it. The value of having something versus the price of waiting it out. That and luck...because, from my perspective, you have far too much to offer (intellect, ardor, art and you're rather attractive) for me to think the monkeywrench in the cogwork is in your presentation but rather the short circuit is happening somewhere between your advertising what you have to offer and the type of clientele that is stepping into line to purchase it. There's an incongruence there.

Have you thought that maybe something in your outward look/demeanor/allure is drawing the types of people that are actually counter-productive to you internally?

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 7/26/2009 9:20:27 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 10:44:41 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

That the result impacts you in the end doesn't necessarily mean you changing your part of the equation is what needs to be done. I realize it's typically popularly ingrained in us now, (usually rightly so, in the interest of personal responsibility) that we should view things in a "we are the only common link of the problems we encounter", but I'm really having a hard time associating that with some of the results you've mentioned (like this member who, in private, took a decidedly different direction from the 2 days of flirting when your "dommy dom dom-ness" seemed in peril because of your habit to view things objectively).

Do you feel you've exceeded the chronological threshold for the thing you want to fall into your lap? Because I think that has a lot to do with it. The value of having something versus the price of waiting it out. That and luck...because, from my perspective, you have far too much to offer (intellect, ardor, art and you're rather attractive) for me to think the monkeywrench in the cogwork is in your presentation but rather the short circuit is happening somewhere between your advertising what you have to offer and the type of clientele that is stepping into line to purchase it. There's an incongruence there.

Have you thought that maybe something in your outward look/demeanor/allure is drawing the types of people that are actually counter-productive to you internally?


Man, my parser is still chewing on that. I get the gist of what you're saying, but can you filter it down into smaller chunks?


(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 12:20:26 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
I think this is a big part of my problem - I'm incredibly distrustful of evidence. I try to avoid ever letting myself believe that I might be 'right'; I want to see things in terms of "probably might-as-well-be-right, given the amount of information I have and the amount of effort required to gather more" - but then, even that process can be taken so far meta that my head spins.

Well, there is evidence, then there is evidence. What I was referring to in my own post is whether or not you were right in the end. After all the lights are shut off, the game is over, who won? Usually (but not always), at this point we are no longer speculating about right or wong.

Before the fact though, that is where the phrase have the courage of your convictions comes from. Like you, I tend to assess the future in terms of probability paths. I try to get on the best one I can manage. But if it turns out a new path opens up or maybe I missed an opportunity or maybe my crystal ball was just broken that day, then I change tracks as soon as that becomes clear. People who know me kid me about having a really firm opinion until I have a new really firm opinion. Before the future becomes the past, you can never be certain you are right. But us mortals do the best we can and so I try to be as right as I know how.

quote:

The thing is, I've had several situations in my formative years where I was provably right, but everyone else decided to believe that I was wrong - in some cases due to political expediency, in others because I was a bit sensitive as a lad, and it was just fun to rile me up. So I've also come up with a bit of a distrust of other people's ability to judge whether I'm right or not - which makes it doubly harder to trust my own instincts about whether I'm right, since without the ability to trust others I'm bound to be much more susceptible to self-affirming delusions and cognitive biases.

I trust in facts and history. In very rare cases, there are those individuals who I respect so much that even if their opinion sounds crazy to me, I'll trust that too. We all go through situations, and not just in our formative years, in which we either believe we are correct before-the-fact or else we were demonstrably correct after the fact and yet others did not acknowledge it. *shrugs* In the end, I can only steer my own personal ship as best as I know how. What other people think is pretty much irelevant unless they can back up their opinions in such a way that I can maybe improve my future performance.

This business about trusting yourself sounds to me to be perhaps at the heart of this original OP. Fundamentally, it is impossible to be a good leader in the absence of a strong self-image. God knows when I fucked up with Carol recently it took me 2 weeks before I could issue her a command again. If you have internal concerns about your own trustworthiness, that may be what's communicating to those you meet and, thereby, causing the symptoms you describe.

Insofar as our own internal biases, I at least try (and not always successfully as many of the CM regulars can attest to *laughs*), to approach a divergent viewpoint with the question, What does this person know that I don't? in my head. We can never escape our own biases, but by approaching every situation with the idea that there is something to learn here, I try at least to mitigate that.

Another thought Ialdabaoth.... as near as I can tell, you are basing this entire thread regarding your perceived weaknesses on the basis that you are single. It occurs to me that there are many possible reasons for this starting out with the most obvious... you just haven't met the right person yet. Are you sure you're not building a house of cards here? I mean seriously, not that you and I know each other, but I've read a lot of your posts. My general vibe is a level-headed and fairly down to earth guy with [at a bare minimum, more evidence needed] a decent familiarity with leadership concepts. Perhaps this is just a dry patch in your love life with no obvious casual relationships to anything simple.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 2:48:52 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Also: if you were to say that you want to work on being more confident, then that's fine.

This is how I see it as well.  There is a difference between arrogance and confidence.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 3:48:15 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Before the fact though, that is where the phrase have the courage of your convictions comes from. Like you, I tend to assess the future in terms of probability paths. I try to get on the best one I can manage. But if it turns out a new path opens up or maybe I missed an opportunity or maybe my crystal ball was just broken that day, then I change tracks as soon as that becomes clear. People who know me kid me about having a really firm opinion until I have a new really firm opinion. Before the future becomes the past, you can never be certain you are right. But us mortals do the best we can and so I try to be as right as I know how.


Ah, and here's the rub. I'm very strong in my meta-convictions, but I tend to question myself very harshly regarding my capacity to live up to those convictions. I'm afraid enough of self-delusion that I'm unwilling to give myself the benefit of the doubt when it comes to believing I'm doing the right thing. When I act, it is never out of certainty - it's always out of a sense that the dangers of not acting are higher than the dangers of acting. I never let myself believe that I'm doing the right thing - at best, I'm doing what I understand is probably the closest thing to the "right thing" I can determine, based on the information currently available.

I also believe that this doesn't let me off the hook, should my information or judgement turn out woefully lacking. It also doesn't warrant any sort of praise, should it turn out that I happened to guess right.



quote:

Another thought Ialdabaoth.... as near as I can tell, you are basing this entire thread regarding your perceived weaknesses on the basis that you are single. It occurs to me that there are many possible reasons for this starting out with the most obvious... you just haven't met the right person yet. Are you sure you're not building a house of cards here?


Well, it's not being single per se, although that was a much easier way of phrasing it. It's more that my attempts to not be single have been rebuffed with increasing hostility, and most of that hostility has boiled down to "you just aren't confident/manly/dominant enough". To which my usual refrain has been "well, yeah, because being all manly/dominant interferes with my actual goals here, which are to get to know you. Are we on board with this or aren't we?"

Unfortunately, most people would rather operate via 'chemistry' than rational discussion, and it's not my place to begrudge them that. As a few of my friends keep saying, if I'm going to play the game, I've got to start actually playing, instead of feeling icky about the rules.

< Message edited by Ialdabaoth -- 7/26/2009 3:49:06 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 3:55:07 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		No-one can do the right thing Ialdabaoth you can only do what you believe to be right. Your problems appear to me to come from your fear of hell in which you are too afraid of the consequences if you are wrong to behave in a way that you think is correct.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:06:40 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Well, it's not being single per se, although that was a much easier way of phrasing it. It's more that my attempts to not be single have been rebuffed with increasing hostility, and most of that hostility has boiled down to "you just aren't confident/manly/dominant enough". To which my usual refrain has been "well, yeah, because being all manly/dominant interferes with my actual goals here, which are to get to know you. Are we on board with this or aren't we?"


This could be way of base, because it's a bit close to the bone for me to be objective about.  There was a time when I was saying a lot of the stuff you are here, pretty much word, aside from the fact that I'd not discovered BDSM yet.  I was at uni.  And, like you, I was getting rejected constantly, sometimes in a very hostile manner.

But, looking back...  I was subconciously going for women I knew wouldn't be compatible with me for whatever reason.  (In a longterm relationship, lesbians, completely different personalities).  And there was a reason for that.  Because, by approaching relationships that way, I didn't have to face intimacy with somebody.  Which I'd have claimed I wanted, passionately and I'd have believed that to be so.  But I didn't, not really.  Because that would have meant running the risk of being rejected for being 'me', or for fucking things up through my own actions.  And, actually, it was a lot easier to swan round being a tortured artist who girls just 'didn't understand' and treating them as a bitplayer in my own personal comic tragedy.  (Which is why I never had any problems with having lots of female friends.  Not because I was "always put in the friend box for being too nice" which is what I was claiming.  But because I didn't pull that shit with people I actually had a friendship with). 

You know the bitter irony?  I only found out years later that one of my closest uni friends had spent the entire time in love with me, but not feeling able to say anything because I was too busy dramatically failing at her.

As I said, that may not have any bearing here.  But it's worth at least checking if that rung any bells.  On the other hand, I don't know if I'd have been ready to hear this at the time if anybody had tried.  Meh.

quote:

Unfortunately, most people would rather operate via 'chemistry' than rational discussion, and it's not my place to begrudge them that. As a few of my friends keep saying, if I'm going to play the game, I've got to start actually playing, instead of feeling icky about the rules.
Hmm.  So what you're saying is that you're going to act like people that you quite obviously hold in utter contempt, in order to get a relationship?  What's worse, honestly?  Being single?  Or not being able to look in the mirror without wincing?


_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:12:48 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Nice post apocalypso and more power to you. Ialdabaoth that is perfect example of an attractive personality introspective without being pretencious and willing to learn from what you learn from that introspection.

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:14:16 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
Hmm.  So what you're saying is that you're going to act like people that you quite obviously hold in utter contempt, in order to get a relationship?  What's worse, honestly?  Being single?  Or not being able to look in the mirror without wincing?


If it were just about getting girls, I'd say that being single was far preferrable. However, I've noticed the same sort of trouble at job interviews, due to my tendency to be completely candid about my strengths and weaknesses. I've noticed the same sort of trouble by the side of the road, due to my tendency to be completely forward with the police officer, even when they're trying to bait me. I've noticed the same sort of trouble when trying to break into a new friend group, due to my tendency to let other people get away with shows of bravado without "rising to the challenge" and proving my dominance. Now, keep in mind that it doesn't always fail - I've had some wonderful jobs, I've had some wonderful relationships, and I've had plenty of times where the cop was appreciative of my candor. But statistically, not playing the "ook" game seems to have done me a disservice.

So it's not just about girls. It's mostly about primate pack-dominance, which I don't like.

And don't get me wrong, I don't hold it in contempt per se - although, I must admit, I've masked my underlying problems with a veneer of contempt to keep from going crazy. At core, the real problem is I just don't like primate pack-dominance games. It's like I was born into the wrong species or something. I still like socializing, I still like forming emotional bonds, I just don't like having to prove superiority just to have a right to have a voice, you know? And yes, I know my perception is coloring that - it's just as easy to say "I don't want to have to prove to other people that they should listen to me", which is a much more selfish - and maybe more accurate - interpretation of the situation. But dominance games are just plain emotionally draining for me, and I'd rather just be given a straightforward means to demonstrate my capabilities, and then be listened to appropriately in areas where my expertise is applicable.

I would also like a pony.

< Message edited by Ialdabaoth -- 7/26/2009 4:16:07 PM >

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:17:19 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		You do not have to engage in displays of dominance to fit in socially. In fact if people are doing this and if the company you are attempting to break into is intelligent then foolish behaviour like this will be seen for what it is. If you have a decent personality you should have no problems with social interaction.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 40
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