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RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:21:25 PM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
. At core, the real problem is I just don't like primate pack-dominance games. It's like I was born into the wrong species or something. I still like socializing, I still like forming emotional bonds, I just don't like having to prove superiority just to have a right to have a voice, you know? And yes, I know my perception is coloring that - it's just as easy to say "I don't want to have to prove to other people that they should listen to me", which is a much more selfish - and maybe more accurate - interpretation of the situation.


Now seems to me you are talking about the dreaded scene, if so many people function just fine without getting involved in it. I am not dominant but people hear my voice, not because I prove superiority of dominance but because I speak as honestly and eloquently as I can, that seems to work just fine for me. Its not about thumping your chest and declaring yourself alpha male. I really do not see what makes you think that it is. To me that is something going on in your own head.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:25:47 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

You do not have to engage in displays of dominance to fit in socially. In fact if people are doing this and if the company you are attempting to break into is intelligent then foolish behaviour like this will be seen for what it is. If you have a decent personality you should have no problems with social interaction.


See, I've heard this before, I just have trouble believing it. And it's not that I find you untrustworthy; it's just that I find the statement itself somewhat incredulous, given most of the interactions I've witnessed.

The trouble is, there's all sorts of different ways to account for those interactions: observer bias, anomalous situations, wishful thinking... but ultimately, I seem to have it pretty well-anchored that arrogance and bravado impress most people far more than humility, and that most interactions in our culture rely on "getting your foot in the door" within the first few seconds, and then not disappointing people once you're "in". It's entirely possible that I've picked this whole idea up as a huge misconception, but it keeps reinforcing. At this point, if I'm going to dismantle it, I'm going to need a strategy for doing so that relies on some sort of external imput, because most of my own processes have put the assumption pretty securely in the middle of my emotional homeostasis.

Put more simply: I think I could be dead wrong that arrogance and bravado 'win', but my emotional subconscious won't let me let go of the idea, and so far trying to abandon the idea rationally hasn't been working as well as I'd like. Assuming I go with that instead of trying to emulate arrogance and bravado, any pointers?

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:37:54 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		I think it is definitely a misconception on your part Ialdabaoth. In my experience people who are arrogant and cocky come across as being incredibly boorish and are usually figures of fun [though they rarely have the self awareness to recognise this]. This is provided though that you are keeping reasonably intelligent company. There are always those impressed by arrogance but they are usually only desirable to those who are arrogant. Note though that this only holds true for social situations job interviews and suchlike can have subtly different dynamics.
I would think that your best bet for dismantling your own emplaced parameters is to change quite radically the people you are interacting with socially. You have mentioned on another thread that you have a very deep relationship with a roomate. Though platonic this shows that an intelligent person is attracted enough to your personality to become an incredibly close friend. There will be other people like this it is a matter of finding them and that can be initially difficult. A place like this is actually not a bad start and plenty of intelligent people have been talking and commending you or offering advice on this thread alone. Clearly you are capable of social interaction it is finding the right environment to perform in that I believe is critical for you and I am afraid that is up to you alone my friend.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:46:37 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

You do not have to engage in displays of dominance to fit in socially. In fact if people are doing this and if the company you are attempting to break into is intelligent then foolish behaviour like this will be seen for what it is. If you have a decent personality you should have no problems with social interaction.


See, I've heard this before, I just have trouble believing it. And it's not that I find you untrustworthy; it's just that I find the statement itself somewhat incredulous, given most of the interactions I've witnessed.

The trouble is, there's all sorts of different ways to account for those interactions: observer bias, anomalous situations, wishful thinking... but ultimately, I seem to have it pretty well-anchored that arrogance and bravado impress most people far more than humility, and that most interactions in our culture rely on "getting your foot in the door" within the first few seconds, and then not disappointing people once you're "in". It's entirely possible that I've picked this whole idea up as a huge misconception, but it keeps reinforcing. At this point, if I'm going to dismantle it, I'm going to need a strategy for doing so that relies on some sort of external imput, because most of my own processes have put the assumption pretty securely in the middle of my emotional homeostasis.

Put more simply: I think I could be dead wrong that arrogance and bravado 'win', but my emotional subconscious won't let me let go of the idea, and so far trying to abandon the idea rationally hasn't been working as well as I'd like. Assuming I go with that instead of trying to emulate arrogance and bravado, any pointers?


One pointer:

Be aware that people will start accusing you of having a Napoleon complex.

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:50:44 PM   
Apocalypso


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Joined: 4/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Put more simply: I think I could be dead wrong that arrogance and bravado 'win', but my emotional subconscious won't let me let go of the idea, and so far trying to abandon the idea rationally hasn't been working as well as I'd like. Assuming I go with that instead of trying to emulate arrogance and bravado, any pointers?
Ok, I'll try and tackle this.  I'm afraid, not being NZ, I'm not going to be able to do you handy little mathematical formulas to back up my points.

But let's look at what "winning" means in this context.  Overall, the general goal is "happiness", whatever that means to the individual.  So, taking that into account, the only tactic worth using is one with a good chance of achieving that goal.  And I'll look at this in the context of relationships.

Now, the obvious question that arises is "does arrogance and bravado achieve happiness".  Yes, it probably can do for those it comes naturally to.  Because they'll attract those relationships where it's a selling point.  And they won't realise they're doing so consciously.  So fine.

It won't work for you.  Because, as you've been very clear about, it's not what you would naturally be doing, it'd be a front. 

Let's accept for the sake of argument (I don't agree with this premise to be clear), that carrying on as you are would have a much smaller chance of getting you into a relationship than switching tactics and being all chestbeating.

It wouldn't get you into a happy relationship.  Because, if you got a relationship this way you'd have to keep it up or the other person(s) would feel cheated.  So you'd be getting yourself into a relationship where you'd spend the whole time feeling that you were with someone who didn't want to be with you as opposed to your crafted persona.

Purely pragmatically, that's ridiculous.  You'd be discarding the 'real you approach' which puts you at the potential of finding 'happy' (which you've accepted has worked previously, no matter how small  you think the chances).  For an approach which, whether you get into a relationship using it or not, has a hundred percent failure rate in terms of the overall goal.  Because there is no possibility of it achieving a positive outcome, merely one of several negative ones.

So going for the second would simply not be logical.  It makes no more sense than finding happiness by doing things that make you miserable.

It's a cliche, but cliches become cliches because they're true in many cases.
Until you accept, deep down, that you are a good guy with a lot to offer some (none of us have something to offer everybody or even most people) women, you're going to have real trouble achieving your goal, whatever tactic you use.  That's what you need to be working on.  You're trying to put a band-aid on a broken leg currently.

Finally, this is me being pretty 'grey hat' in terms of a previously mentioned skillset.  Be clear, I am massively overstepping the mark in terms of how well we know each other.  So if your response is "fuck off and mind your own business", I will hold you absolutely no ill feeling for that.  It's entirely within your rights to respond in that way.

I've noticed something about you.  You almost always respond to criticism on here, often in some detail.  Which is great.  But if you're complimented, at best you try to push it to one side.  And most of the time you ignore it entirely.  I have no idea why that is.  But I have a feeling you'd be well advised to try and figure that point out.  I suspect it may be crucial.


_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 4:55:04 PM   
LillyoftheVally


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Ialdabaoth, accepting what you are may not be the easiest of things, but once you have done that then you will start to progress, trying to be something you are not will leave you empty, sure you may be able to start up a relationship with someone attracted to chest beating but will you be happy wearing that mask for the duration? It is true that confidence is one of the most attractive, sexiest things a human can possess, and maybe that is actually the root of your problems.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 5:02:45 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch
Be aware that people will start accusing you of having a Napoleon complex.


Oh, they already do - any time I stand up for myself. As an example:

A few years back, I was in line for a concert (NIN/Perfect Circle, I believe) with a rather cute girl I was trying to woo.

Several... ah, rather large, fit and muscular gentlemen in their 20's wound up in line behind us. They'd been cutting through line a bit, but no one was really doing anything about it.

I chose to ignore them.

One of them physically lifted me off my feet by my shoulders, and handed me to the next guy, who passed me back to the next guy, and so on, until they sat me down behind them. It took me a moment to even register what was happening. Meanwhile, one of them was flirting with the girl, who looked really embarrassed about the fact that the boy she was with let himself get picked up like an eight-year-old child.

I stepped back up to the person in front, and started a somewhat impassioned rant about how that sort of thing stopped being cool in the third grade, and how in decent, civilized society, people tend to wait for permission before manhandling each other.

They all snickered. The girl turned beet-red. One of the bouncers came over.

Turns out the bouncer was one of their friends.

I didn't get to see NIN (although the girl did), and afterwords, said girl gave me an earful about my Napoleon complex.

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 5:09:24 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
I stepped back up to the person in front, and started a somewhat impassioned rant about how that sort of thing stopped being cool in the third grade, and how in decent, civilized society, people tend to wait for permission before manhandling each other.
Wrong tactic.  To steal shamelessly from Stephen Fry:

*Dumb gorilla picks up Ialdaboth*

Ialdabaoth:  "If you try that again, do you know what's going to happen".

Moron:  "Yeah, what?"

Ialdabaoth:  "I'm warning you, manhandle me again and I'll get an enormous erection, that's what!"

Now, be warned, I have used this and it has one of two possible outcomes.  Mostly, they get all redfaced and run away.  Occasionally, you will get hit, so it is  a risk you'll have to take.

But either way, you win...





_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 5:12:10 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
I've noticed something about you.  You almost always respond to criticism on here, often in some detail.  Which is great.  But if you're complimented, at best you try to push it to one side.  And most of the time you ignore it entirely.  I have no idea why that is.  But I have a feeling you'd be well advised to try and figure that point out.  I suspect it may be crucial.


There's three "layers" of reasoning for this:

Layer one:
Compliments indicate things I'm doing right. Awesome, no change needed there. Criticism indicates things I'm doing wrong. This represents an opportunity to improve, which is actionable. You'll note that, whenever I'm addressing a criticism, I will occasionally mention previous compliments. When I do so, I'm basically saying (often in an admittedly obtuse way) "Here's X good thing that I don't want to lose while I'm fixing Y bad thing".

Layer two:
This is perhaps a bit of my upbringing, but in my view, compliments are just "social lubricant"; they have no actual substance. The only way I believe a compliment is if someone materially benefited from what they're complimenting me on, and they mention some specific details about why they think it's compliment-worthy. Otherwise, I think they're just complimenting me to "be nice", and don't actually mean it at all.

Criticism, on the other hand, usually contains a lot of useful data. And generally, if they're mentioning something worth criticizing, there's usually plenty else wrong that they aren't mentioning. It behooves me to provide, and then extract, as much detail as possible regarding the fault, so that I can fix it with all the information available to me.

Layer three:
When giving a compliment, people typically say what they know the other person wants to hear - thus, there's rarely anything true about it. However, when people give a criticism or insult, it's usually painfully true, and only half of what they're actually seeing - thus, it's useful to assume that it's actually far worse than that, and try to glean any actual information one can.

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 5:14:56 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
*Dumb gorilla picks up Ialdaboth*

Ialdabaoth:  "If you try that again, do you know what's going to happen".

Moron:  "Yeah, what?"

Ialdabaoth:  "I'm warning you, manhandle me again and I'll get an enormous erection, that's what!"

Now, be warned, I have used this and it has one of two possible outcomes.  Mostly, they get all redfaced and run away.  Occasionally, you will get hit, so it is  a risk you'll have to take.

But either way, you win...


Oh, I've had that play out brilliantly before, too. I was walking down the "main strip" here in Tempe, looking rather fetching in a white fishnet shirt and tight black vinyl pants, and three rather substantial ASU jocks accosted me, following me for a few blocks and shouting various homosexual slurs.

I stopped, and asked them what was up.

One asked: "Are you some kind of faggot?"

I replied: "Honey, you're the one chasing some skinny guy in tight vinyl pants down Mill, not me."

His friends laughed at him for a good minute before he plowed my face into a lamppost.

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 6:07:51 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
my emotional subconscious won't let me let go of the idea, and so far trying to abandon the idea rationally hasn't been working as well as I'd like.

I have a broad general knowledge, but I had never heard of a "demotivator" until you posted a link to one of your "favorite" ones.

Think about what it takes to change an unhealthy physical behavior pattern, like smoking.  It is much more comfortable to continue smoking than to stop.  Changing mental behavior is not much different.  It is much more comfortable to inhale and ingest things that reinforce your current view of the world than it is to replace your current view with a different one.

Make a list of things you do that reinforce the outlook you wish to change.  Make a list of things you think would help you attain the outlook you desire.  Eliminate the things on the first list from your life, one by one, and add in the things on the second list.  Set simple, clear, physically measurable objectives.

Very important: don't think you're a  failure if you don't meet all your goals in the first week.  This is hard, and no one is ever "perfect."  Keep trying, and over time you will notice a change.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 6:13:05 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline 		On compliments, I think layers two and three are the interesting ones for me.  Because, when I think that part of the issue is your assumptions about yourself at the moment, they have a direct bearing on that.  Put it like this.  I see your reasons for taking criticism and I think they're excellent.  But, if the compliments are also genuine, by refusing to take them at face value you're actually basing your selfperception on entirely skewed data, because you're throwing out entirely valid evidence.

I've complimented you on this thread, yeah?  Take a step away from it being about you and analyse what you've seen of me in general when posting.  Do I strike you as someone who either a) says things he doesn't mean to 'be nice' or b) has any problem with being a dick to people he dislikes?  (Actually, I think the argument that I do the latter far too much, sometimes with no sense of proportion, is far stronger). Feel free to answer totally honestly.  I don't offend easily. You'll notice I do stay away from a fair few of the 'advise me' threads.   Quite honestly, that's because I can be a bit of a twat about intelligence and often decide that I don't have any reason to care about the OP because I think they're stupid.


_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 6:26:21 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		And PS:

As one example of what I'm trying to describe, you might consider changing your username.  Right now, you're named after a demigod who lied that he was the big boss, and got scolded that he was just a loser by his own mother.

Why name yourself after something unworthy if your objective is to be worthy in your own eyes, and in the eyes of others?


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 6:49:15 PM   
KneelforAnne


Posts: 1011
Joined: 6/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuffkinks
What's self-esteem? Self-esteem is being yourself, believing in yourself, and not caring whether or not other people believe you can do great things.


Isn't that kind of like a company not worrying about marketing or advertisement because they really believe in the product?


It's kind of like having such a great product, that it sells itself. 

_____________________________

~Posting now as ForgetMeKnots~

BDSM is what two people at the moment decide it should be...
--CatdeMedici

Member of the Subbie Mafia
Pimpette
Member of MoGa's IN crowd

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 6:57:33 PM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		Ialdabaoth,

Think back to high school. Remember all the girls what treated nice guys like dirt and fell head over heals for douche bags? Nothing's changed. Not in high school, not in life.

I identify with your problem. I'm naturally humble as well. It hasn't worked out so great. I missed out, and will continue to miss out, on a lot of wild times and instant gratification for not being an alpha male douche bag. That's ok with me.

The people I've met along the road who have the wherewithal to understand the difference between humility and weakness are worth keeping around. More so than the animal creatures who live in the dog eat dog world. My entire life I've been in leadership positions. Only when we, as a team, fail does my humility get rewarded by others. I've always taken hits for the team, carried extra loads, suffered so others could enjoy... I get el zilcho credit for it. (I don't do it for recognition, but eventually you notice "no one even cares...")

In short, what do you want? If I wanted to advance quickly, expand my number of sexual conquests, and burn a lot of quality bridges... I'd just be a dick all the time. In the past, it's worked wonders. In the future it will too. But it comes at a cost.

A lot of mature, wise, thoughtful minds will tell you "be who you are, and you happen to have a beautiful soul." Because they are thoughtful/wise/mature enough to see it. Most are not. Expect most people to pass you over because you're not top dog.

My answer: Hybridize. Be a dick when it serves your purpose. Yes, it's Machiavellian, but what else are you going to do? Never see NIN? Treat tramps like tramps, dolts like dolts, friends like friends.

Let me rephrase my point: Are you willing to miss out on all the awesome instant gratification of being an arrogant, chauvinistic, proud, chancy, cheeky, daft, tricky prick?

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 7:11:36 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

The thing is, I've had several situations in my formative years where I was provably right, but everyone else decided to believe that I was wrong - in some cases due to political expediency, in others because I was a bit sensitive as a lad, and it was just fun to rile me up. So I've also come up with a bit of a distrust of other people's ability to judge whether I'm right or not - which makes it doubly harder to trust my own instincts about whether I'm right, since without the ability to trust others I'm bound to be much more susceptible to self-affirming delusions and cognitive biases.

Does all this make any sense?


Nope, never EVER experienced anything like that, nope, not me.    I would worry less about self-affirming delusions and conginitive biases and more about "is this issue worth it" and probably vastly more important, as Leadership said "are you right" seldom, once in a while, often, in these situations, etc.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Cockiness - 7/26/2009 7:28:20 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I didn't get to see NIN (although the girl did), and afterwords, said girl gave me an earful about my Napoleon complex.


Life isn't fair.  You are skinny, I got AD/HD, one guy gets a fire hose and the other an eraser.  Two tricks, make the best of what you got and embrace what the universe brings you.

You lost the girl but frankly, you never had her (not if she would go without you) and you are better off (who would want a woman who wouldn't stand beside her man?) without her, laugh and move on.

Look at my little tirade thread, there are women who saw my point, plenty who didn't.   That is how life works.  If a woman wants a guy who is always even tempered, always turns the other cheek, we aren't a match, but someone who appreciates that I CAN (even if I rarely do) step up and be a caveman is probably a much better fit for me.

For most of us, there is some small slice of women who would "work" for us but when we are going about our daily lives, most of the ones we see wouldn't and you just have to laugh it off.  I go to a California university, I am surrounded by some of the most intelligent and beautiful women in the world but who are half my age, hell my son could date them.  Just ain't gonna happen.

You need to let go a lot of that anger and frustration, stop doing quite so much introspection (something I sure as hell need to work on) and spend some time just being you AND being fine with that.  Relax, have fun, and just let go.  Working too hard at it is a turn off.  Learn to become a great guy, most women will tell you there are not enough of them.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Cockiness - 7/27/2009 3:29:53 AM   
KMsAngel


Posts: 17415
Joined: 4/13/2007
Status: offline 		serious lack of them in fact.

cockiness is ok, in doses leavened with an enormous amount of humour. i'm as cave-womanish as the next woman - i like a bit of cocky, i like a man who stands up for what he believes in and is willing to fight to blood to defend it. even if it's something i may consider a bit silly.

a man who has the strength of his convictions, whatever his convictions may be, is generally a strong man. a gentle man, a gentleman and a man of intelligence. to have convictions usually means he's thought deeply about why he holds them. (just please stop 2nd guessing yourself constantly!!)

the 'alan alda' man, as cd likes to call them, have no appeal. sometimes i just want a man to say, fuck it woman, we're doing it this way cause i said so. arrogant? cocky? all in the eye of the beholder.


_____________________________

20 fluffy points!

flightless cherub


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Cockiness - 7/27/2009 3:57:35 AM   
TurboJugend


Posts: 481
Joined: 6/15/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Compliments indicate things I'm doing right.

Compliments on forums are often made when people agree with you, not because you are right.
(but it can be)

(in reply to KMsAngel)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Cockiness - 7/27/2009 3:59:00 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

You need to let go a lot of that anger and frustration, stop doing quite so much introspection (something I sure as hell need to work on) and spend some time just being you AND being fine with that. Relax, have fun, and just let go. Working too hard at it is a turn off. Learn to become a great guy, most women will tell you there are not enough of them.
Gee Michael...

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Profile   Post #: 60
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