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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 8:42:19 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
So if a person kills another person with a shovel then its the shovel manufacturer's fault? Is that what I'm hearing someone say? The shovel was obviously dangerous so the factory is at fault.

It isn't this simple, how can anyone predict how a tiny majority will be affected by the experience of war and what the results of that could lead to. If the military is not at all responsible then why do they offer counselling, out of the goodness of their hearts?
quote:


I remember many classes on ethics when I was serving this country. I'm pretty sure they covered when not to kill. As others have said, soldiers have free will. The ones who commit murder chose to commit murder regardless of their training.

If it was premeditated murder I would agree but if it was as the result of an instantaneous reaction to something then it isn't that simple.
quote:


If you want to think of them as a product, try comparing them to a table saw. Table saws have safety equipment built into their design. Most accidents happen because someone ignored the safety warnings, disabled the safety equipment or otherwise operated them in an incorrect manner. The improper use of equipment is not the fault of the manufacturer but the user.

The manufacturer places the safety warnings to govern use as that is the only thing they can do to show they have considered people are often idiots. It should not be easy to misuse equipment and end up with a serious injury, if that happens then manufacturers should learn from how the product was misused and try to ensure that isn't allowed to occur again either by incorporating safety features or through clearer safety warnings of the danger. If they don’t a legal team will bring forward various examples from the past of equipment being used in the same way and causing injury and then ask why haven’t you learnt from this?




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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 8:45:16 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		And to be fair in the army whenever a murder is comitted or a blue on blue incident occurs an investigation is always carried out fullcircle. They are also liable in that they always pay reperations to the victim. However there is a difference between being liable and being at fault. As an example the British and american armies pay compensation to those who are abused [whatever the circumstances] by their soldiers largely because as armies go they go out of their way to protect civilians and adhere to the rules of war, this doesn't mean though that their training methods are at fault.  The analogy with the factory only holds true in that there would be an investigation. If a man went ballistic on a factory line and strangled a coworker to death the company [though still conceivably liable] would'nt be at fault with it's training of employees.
The problem with weeding out POTENTIAL liabilities in the military is a very difficult one. It is relatively easy to weed out those who are not suibtable for army life and the selection processes are good for that, I have only experienced officer selection in Britian but the process is rigorous enough that those who don't have the right personality for whatever reason are removed early on. What is not easy and really is almost impossible to do is detect those who might develop personality faults when they are deployed. All soldiers deployed will have their personalities fray what stops them breaking completely is their training and the fact that so few crack completely is a testament to the methods both Britan and America use [that is not a slur to other armies there are plenty that are equally good i'm just using these as example].
You are right that if a high percentage of psychopaths were getting through selection there would be a problem but as far as I am aware circle there isn't.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 8:46:24 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		I'm sorry I don't know what happened to my post to put lines through it like that can you still read it circle?

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 9:16:29 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:


As an example the British and american armies pay compensation to those who are abused [whatever the circumstances] by their soldiers largely because as armies go they go out of their way to protect civilians and adhere to the rules of war, this doesn't mean though that their training methods are at fault.

A lot of abuse occurred under the guise of interrogation and in these instances the handbook wasn’t clear enough as to what forms of interrogation were permitted. So my analysis of that would be the individual soldiers were at fault for not having the slightest thread of human compassion and the institution was at fault for not giving clear guidance. Some things that were done the average human being wouldn’t need a handbook to tell you it’s wrong but some things are more grey.

Interesting enough though I saw this experiment recently on TV where they recreated this famous experiment in which subjects under the authority of a scientist were asked to administer pain to subjects in another room. In reality the subjects thought they were administering pain but in actual fact it was recorded screams. Surprisingly the majority of the subjects went along with the scientist when he asked them to continue with the test even though they thought they were making the person in the other room scream. These were also people off the street not soldiers with training desensitising them to the suffering of others. So perhaps a guidebook is needed to stop people doing things and using the excuse of someone more senior allowing it.
quote:


The analogy with the factory only holds true in that there would be an investigation. If a man went ballistic on a factory line and strangled a coworker to death the company [though still conceivably liable] would'nt be at fault with it's training of employees.

Perhaps they’d ask what level of stress he was under and what support he had?
quote:


The problem with weeding out POTENTIAL liabilities in the military is a very difficult one. It is relatively easy to weed out those who are not suibtable for army life and the selection processes are good for that, I have only experienced officer selection in Britian but the process is rigorous enough that those who don't have the right personality for whatever reason are removed early on. What is not easy and really is almost impossible to do is detect those who might develop personality faults when they are deployed.

That might be true but don’t they make assumptions in terms of past experience and how someone of a similar background would react?
quote:


You are right that if a high percentage of psychopaths were getting through selection there would be a problem but as far as I am aware circle there isn't.

Yeah I don’t know what the percentage is this is an example of a measure, I am not sure there are any such measures in place to test people at various stages rather than just at the beginning. This is the problem perhaps.


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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 9:20:55 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

You are correct the numbers are tiny but the military is still liable for the few that do commit such crimes and should make reparations to the victims of such crimes.
This is not shinola!!

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 11:58:20 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

While I know that it is difficult to serve in a combat zone for long periods of time (I think I've got a bit more personal experience in that than the article's author, or the OP), and some people certainly may have problems in civilian life, the truth is that this article is a sensationalist article, written to sell newspapers, and not to do any kind of real investigation or evaluation of the situation.

But it's certainly "juicy" for someone like rulemylife to use in his furthering anti-Bush, and anti-Iraq campaign, but it's pretty worthless for any kind of considered debate on the subject.

Firm


So, the pattern has become that anything Firm disagrees with is sensationalistic, National Enquirer journalism, no matter how respected the source, or how many other news agencies are backing the story.

But as long as we are on the subject of credibility, most combat vets I know have learned to address a conflict face-to-face. 

Something I've asked you repeatedly to do.

Yet, you persist in making these schoolgirl-like comments about me to other posters.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/28/2009 11:59:17 AM >

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 12:31:15 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

While I know that it is difficult to serve in a combat zone for long periods of time (I think I've got a bit more personal experience in that than the article's author, or the OP), and some people certainly may have problems in civilian life, the truth is that this article is a sensationalist article, written to sell newspapers, and not to do any kind of real investigation or evaluation of the situation.

But it's certainly "juicy" for someone like rulemylife to use in his furthering anti-Bush, and anti-Iraq campaign, but it's pretty worthless for any kind of considered debate on the subject.

Firm


So, the pattern has become that anything Firm disagrees with is sensationalistic, National Enquirer journalism, no matter how respected the source, or how many other news agencies are backing the story.

But as long as we are on the subject of credibility, most combat vets I know have learned to address a conflict face-to-face. 

Something I've asked you repeatedly to do.

Yet, you persist in making these schoolgirl-like comments about me to other posters.


No need for personal attacks rule.

The fact is that much of what is written, and passed for journalism is pretty much flawed.

Never accept things on their face, as they are presented. Always do an analysis, especially if you find yourself in total agreement, and your heart fluttering.

In other words, do critical thinking, not emotional reacting.

I've been trained to analyze writings and news reports and and how to write them to get the desired emotional effect. I watch for the same thing when I read.

You post politically orientated material for a very specific reason: you wish to influence others to your point of view. Nothing wrong with that at all. But don't get all defensive and insulting when I point out the logical faults, missing information, false comparisons and the appeals to emotion in your posted articles.

Perhaps you should consider what is more honest: attempting to manipulate others through propaganda techniques, or to point out the flaws in those techniques.

Firm

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 12:42:41 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Very well stated, Arpig. I would also add that some of the returning military personnel will have problems that require long term, even life-long, psychiatric treatment.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

You take young men in the prime of their life pumped full of testosterone and train them to kill as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible and then just set them loose on society, well you are bound to have problems. All militaries the world over should have some sort of decompression system to unwind soldiers returning from combat, especially a non-traditional conflict such as is being fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. To expect there to be no repercussions of the sort of barbarization and desensitizing that these soldiers go through just to maintain a semblance of sanity in the field is ridiculous.

Now, that all being said, I in now way condone the crimes of these ex soldiers, if they wish to plead insanity or PTSD then let them take their chances with a jury. However, the fact that so many men from this unit have seemingly snapped does seem to point to a serious problem, something happened that led to the disproportionate number of murders and other violent crimes by the ex members of this particular unit. I will not hazzard a guess as to just what may be the cause, but it definitely needs looking into.




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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 1:32:42 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		The most recent war where nations descended into a fair degree of lawlessness in the aftermath was WW1 - thus providing a vehicle for soldiers to continue the violence: the Freikorps constituted millions of men who engaged in widespread violence with Communists and scrapped with Poles on the German/Polish border; demobbed British soldiers were ruthless in Ireland and India; Russian soldiers joined the Russian Civil War where more Russian soldiers were killed than in WW1. It's not necessarily true that soldiers have had enough of the violence when the fighting is over; WW1 suggests that soldiers had simply had enough of WW1.

Perhaps violence is addictive and some people thrive on it - and given the opportunity they will take the opportunity to continue to get their fix.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 1:57:19 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		It is not that violence itself is addictive Gent it is that, to a degree [and only a degree], violence is a large part of life for a serving soldier.  The more savage the war the greater the need and corresponding exposure culminating in a greater tolerance. The problem arises when returning soldiers are not given adequate [usually read any] psychological support on arriving home. Britian is notoriously appaling for this we do not even have seperation between military and civilian therapist sessions, soldiers are expected to attend meetings with civilians where they are usually told to not return as their stories frighten the other patients. Soldiers coming back from war need more than a parade to welcome them [though that is always appreciated] what they need is support from the countries they serve but all too often that is lacking. So the soldier applies the rules he has learned at war to the society he now finds himslf which is as alien now to him as a warzone would be to civilians.
As for the first world war that is a good example. Germany a defeated country bankrupted and torn apart by inner turmoil it's soldiers did not have the greatest care. Most memebers of the Freikorps did so out of a need for membership and a sense of belonging with people who shared their experiences and emotions in a society that largely wanted to forget them to forget the horror of the war and shame of defeat.
Russian soldiers fared even worse they returned home following a crushing defeat to find their country torn apart there was precious little psychological support for them. Is it any wonder that they saw no reason to reintegrate with a society that had used them so revoltingly at the front and abandoned them for political turmoil instead?
Briatin as i've already said has always had a pisspoor attitude to it's soldiers and the black and tans were a good example of how not to reintroduce soldiers to civilian life.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 2:18:52 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

quote:

Since 2005, some brigade soldiers also have been involved in brawls, beatings, rapes, DUIs, drug deals, domestic violence, shootings, stabbings, kidnapping and suicides.

Does this mean to imply that if you take some of the less refined and finespun individuals of a country, and give them a callous setting such as the military, that bad things might happen?

Oh jeez, call Einstein from the grave, we have a breakthrough. Heroes die, otherwise they'll come home and fuck their reputation up.



After my father's four year war experience, he could not be awakened except with a broom since he came out of sleep swinging; knocked his grandmother into the hospital.  My grandfather tried to bully him as he had done before the war and was  knocked through a door and screen, over a porch railing and a distance around the house; several days in the hospital.  He joined a police department and shot and beat a few people (not killing anyone until later) and in time mellowed out, kinda.

He was described as a very gentle man before the war. He was an educated man.  He held the Medal of Honor  and Silver Star among others.  So I guess I disagree with the above position.  However, if you declare war and send young men into war you have to get ready for them to return and cause problems in your society.  You cannot have it both ways.  (WW2)

"Heroes die, otherwise they'll come home and fuck their reputation up."  However, they are also  seen as an absolute necessity  but not something you want to deal with on a daily basis."  The TV stations in the city where he lived always said in broadcasts during troubled events "time to role Frank out.  You never throw the Franks of this world away but rather you put them in a closest since you will always need them in the future to save your ass in another riot."  Frank and I never got along, but Frank and a machine gun did  solve a lot of riot situations fast."  There were three Medal of Honor holders in the County where I lived.  Extraordinary men.

< Message edited by Lorr47 -- 7/28/2009 2:36:54 PM >

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 2:29:40 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Precisely Lorr. One problem is that returning soldiers have completed their job so the return the government receives for it's investment decline sharply when the war is over ort thee soldier retires or is invalided out. A good example of this at the moment in Britian is the government fighting tooth and nail to reduce soldiers compensation for war wounds to save money.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 2:57:29 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

No need for personal attacks rule.


I wholeheartedly agree Firm, but I can accept those attacks as long as someone addresses me directly.

If someone cannot see fit to make remarks about me directly to me then I have to question that.

Which may be perceived as an attack but I see it more as a question of character and integrity.



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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 3:09:28 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

No need for personal attacks rule.


I wholeheartedly agree Firm, but I can accept those attacks as long as someone addresses me directly.

If someone cannot see fit to make remarks about me directly to me then I have to question that.

Which may be perceived as an attack but I see it more as a question of character and integrity.




Is our current tension due to the fact that you believe that I'm not addressing you when I give my analysis of the news stories that you post?

If so, then it is not my intent to appear to be "talking behind your back", but rather, not to attack you personally, because on most of the stories you have posted lately, you don't initially make any commentary when you post them.

What, then, is it that I should respond to?

I respond to the actual article, and what I (rightly or wrongly) perceive as your reason for posting it.

Not attempting to be a weasel - simply addressing the issue(s) you raise.

Firm

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 4:25:02 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		The link includes the quote I have copied below, that would seem to me to be a rational investigation into the situation, certainly not sensationalist. I obviously dont know if the Gazette has a history of political bias, but the report itself does come across as genuine. For that reason its a disturbing situation, I dont think toops get the medical support they need once they are back home, certainly not once they have left the service.

"The Gazette based its report on months of interviews with soldiers and their families, medical and military records, court documents and photographs."

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 4:46:08 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The link includes the quote I have copied below, that would seem to me to be a rational investigation into the situation, certainly not sensationalist. I obviously dont know if the Gazette has a history of political bias, but the report itself does come across as genuine. For that reason its a disturbing situation, I dont think toops get the medical support they need once they are back home, certainly not once they have left the service.

"The Gazette based its report on months of interviews with soldiers and their families, medical and military records, court documents and photographs."

Politesub,

I'm not saying that the article, nor the newspaper it is from hold an overt political bias. The political bias in this case, is rule's, in attempting to use the article in a manner to support his political beliefs and objectives - which he has stated is/was his goal.

Do I believe that our troops get all the care that they need? No. Not at all. Especially for TBI and PTSD.

Attempting to use this fact (which is no different than from any other conflict, and actually better than in most conflicts) to further his political agenda I find somewhat distasteful, although acceptable.

I also hold the right to respond to his political propaganda. Which I do, and he doesn't like too much.

Firm

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 5:08:15 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Firm, I was just stating my opinion of the article after having read it. I agree about PTSD, all too often the guys are just left to deal with it.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 5:14:15 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



I'm not saying that the article, nor the newspaper it is from hold an overt political bias. The political bias in this case, is rule's, in attempting to use the article in a manner to support his political beliefs and objectives - which he has stated is/was his goal.

Do I believe that our troops get all the care that they need? No. Not at all. Especially for TBI and PTSD.

Attempting to use this fact (which is no different than from any other conflict, and actually better than in most conflicts) to further his political agenda I find somewhat distasteful, although acceptable.

I also hold the right to respond to his political propaganda. Which I do, and he doesn't like too much.

Firm
Firm doesn't the multiple tours play into this.Reserve soldiers doing 2 and 3 sometimes 4 tours only to return to a society that no sacrifice has been asked of.I'm certasinly not suggesting bringing back the draft....but if any society finds itself with reason enough to send their young men in harms way doesn't that society need to ensure that the burden is shared by all.....not just the volunteer.
These soldiers come home to a society that for all intents and purposes has no connection whatsoever with the reality they have just endured.No sense of shared sacrifice between citizen and returning soldier.While these young men surrender their innocence and perhaps to a degree their humanity...their peers at home are moving forward in their lives starting careers and families.
Not at all like other pre Viet Nam conflicts Firm...the shared sense of sacrifice is missing....perhaps replaced by a sense of loss?

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/28/2009 9:01:30 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

To be honest, that was not my point in posting this.

It was that so many on here applauding Bush for taking this action forget the consequences to the innocent civilians that these soldiers claim to have "lit up" and the consequences to the soldiers themselves and their families.



I'm sorry, but I have to take exception to your posting this for your stated reason above. 

First, specifically who are the posters here that you are talking about... the "so many on here applauding Bush for taking this action"?

Second, just how is it that you personally know what they do and do not remember?

For what it's worth, I supported Bush's actions... and I have not one, but two sons who served/and are serving in Iraq.  Both from Fort Carson.  One of whom is sitting upstairs from me at this very moment.  Seems I (and Firm) may have a closer handle on what is going on there.

Yes, there have been some problems with soldiers who've returned from deployment, breaking the law.  No, it isn't as prevalent as The Gazette of Colorado Springs makes it out to be.  You have to realize that there is a tendency for local newspapers to pander to the mindset of its readers... which in this case is the residents of Colorado Springs.  There is always a good number of citizens who live close to military installations that tend to blame anything bad on the military.  Colorado Springs and Fort Carson are no exception. 

And soldiers are no more or less likely to break the law than any other citizen... whether they've been to war or not.  This, I can attest to from personal experience as I was stationed at Fort Leavenworth and worked in the military prison there... well after Vietnam and long before Iraq.

Yes, the 1-9 was in a very bad area and saw some very nasty stuff.

Yes, there has been some reasons for me, personally, to believe that the cadre at Fort Carson haven't done as good a job as they could have. 

That has nothing to do with Bush or the fact that we are in Iraq.  It's strictly a military discipline and organizational thing.

And for what it's worth, there is a congressional hearing on this tomorrow.

http://www.gazette.com/articles/mental-59282-army-soldiers.html

The A/P might not have bothered to pick up that followup.

I, personally, do not appreciate having this used by you for "Bush" bashing.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/29/2009 6:49:25 PM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		Well, sorry, but we both know the reason you don't personally appreciate it and it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.



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