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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 12:38:18 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		If he desired to pull out all troops then that is certainly an alternative albeit on I would disgree with. The fact of the matter is that the war has been going on for six years now and the situation has changed enormously and has rapidly become more stable in the last two years. THe fact that as the war draws to a close troops can be pulled out is not the result of a policy to get out of Iraq it is simply a natural process that happens when a conflict winds down to lower levels of intensity.

(in reply to Starbuck09)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 1:13:26 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Well. I thought I did address your points, but since you referred me back here let's try again.

quote:


First, specifically who are the posters here that you are talking about... the "so many on here applauding Bush for taking this action"?


I'm not going to go there, naming people, but you well know there are many who have said that everything Bush did was correct.

So why are you asking me the obvious?

quote:


Second, just how is it that you personally know what they do and do not remember?/


I have no clue what you are saying here.

quote:


For what it's worth, I supported Bush's actions


Then, for what's it worth, why did you waste so many words or your previous question asking me what you've just answered?


quote:


... and I have not one, but two sons who served/and are serving in Iraq.  Both from Fort Carson.  One of whom is sitting upstairs from me at this very moment.  Seems I (and Firm) may have a closer handle on what is going on there.


Which assumes that you have some special insight because you are somehow the only parents of those in a military force of what now, 140,000 in Iraq?


quote:


Yes, there have been some problems with soldiers who've returned from deployment, breaking the law.  No, it isn't as prevalent as The Gazette of Colorado Springs makes it out to be.  You have to realize that there is a tendency for local newspapers to pander to the mindset of its readers... which in this case is the residents of Colorado Springs.  There is always a good number of citizens who live close to military installations that tend to blame anything bad on the military.  Colorado Springs and Fort Carson are no exception.


Do you live in Colorado Springs?

Or is this yet another assumption?   

quote:


And soldiers are no more or less likely to break the law than any other citizen... whether they've been to war or not.  This, I can attest to from personal experience as I was stationed at Fort Leavenworth and worked in the military prison there... well after Vietnam and long before Iraq.


That would seem to be contradicted by the imprisoned ex-soldiers themselves, who seemingly have little reason to lie at this point.

quote:


Yes, the 1-9 was in a very bad area and saw some very nasty stuff.

Yes, there has been some reasons for me, personally, to believe that the cadre at Fort Carson haven't done as good a job as they could have. 

That has nothing to do with Bush or the fact that we are in Iraq.  It's strictly a military discipline and organizational thing.


It has everything to do with Bush as he was Commander-in-Chief and the breakdowns in discipline were largely the result of intentionally ambiguous directives from the White House on down.







< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/31/2009 1:18:14 PM >

(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 1:20:50 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		How does the fact that the soldiers in question have broken the law invidate treasures assertion that on the whole soldiers are no more or less likely to break the law then civilians rule?

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 1:22:44 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

If he desired to pull out all troops then that is certainly an alternative albeit on I would disgree with. The fact of the matter is that the war has been going on for six years now and the situation has changed enormously and has rapidly become more stable in the last two years. THe fact that as the war draws to a close troops can be pulled out is not the result of a policy to get out of Iraq it is simply a natural process that happens when a conflict winds down to lower levels of intensity.


Which fails to address the fact Bush refused to set a time line for withdrawal until he was forced into it by Maliki's endorsement of Obama's proposal during the campaign.

(in reply to Starbuck09)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 1:26:43 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

How does the fact that the soldiers in question have broken the law invidate treasures assertion that on the whole soldiers are no more or less likely to break the law then civilians rule?


It doesn't.

Nor does her assertion of her claim make it any more valid.

But what the soldiers themselves say has to be considered.








< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/31/2009 1:28:48 PM >

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 1:36:48 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		What the soldiers say only implies that they broke the law. Their testimony is also questionable since they are themselves criminals. Blaming their crimes on p.t.s.d could well be an attempt to garner sympathy for their plight. As far as I am aware there are no statistics that suggest crime is higher amoungst army personel than civilians.

Setting a timeline for withdrawal is a matter of political expediency not situational neccesity. Setting a withdrawal timetable is often irresponsible as if factors in the war change and a longer deployment becomes neccesary then you have dashed the hopes of soldier and civilian alike. Withdrawal should only be undertaken as the situation allows nothing more.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 3:24:14 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
First, specifically who are the posters here that you are talking about... the "so many on here applauding Bush for taking this action"?


I'm not going to go there, naming people, but you well know there are many who have said that everything Bush did was correct.

So why are you asking me the obvious?


I know no such thing.  In fact, I'm not aware of a single person who posts here in the forums (or anywhere else for that matter) who has ever said that everything Bush did was correct.

I'm also not aware of any poster who has taken the trouble to start any threads boasting about how right Bush was, nor any who have outright applauded his actions... least of all any time in the recent past.  There are some, who, when the issue of Iraq has been raised and Bush castigated, have defended his overall policy with regard to Iraq.  But I don't know that any have ever "applauded" Bush or claimed every single action he has taken was correct.

Again, if you can direct me to any specific posts or threads that clearly indicate otherwise, I will be happy to concede this point.

If not, I will expect you to concede that you exaggerated for emotional effect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Second, just how is it that you personally know what they do and do not remember?/


I have no clue what you are saying here.


Allow me to give you a clue.  You had stated:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It was that so many on here applauding Bush for taking this action forget the consequences to the innocent civilians that these soldiers claim to have "lit up" and the consequences to the soldiers themselves and their families.


So... you were declaring that these people (yet to be named) forget.  I simply asked how you knew they had forgotten.

If this is not accurate and you do not have any personal, first-hand knowledge about what other people think and what they do not remember, then kindly quit trying to speak for others.

And if you do manage to identify who these people are, you might seriously consider apologizing to them for attempting to state their cases without full knowledge of what they think, feel and remember... and without their consent.  I suspect they might not appreciate your poor representation of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

For what it's worth, I supported Bush's actions


Then, for what's it worth, why did you waste so many words or your previous question asking me what you've just answered?


Thank you for your concern, but my words belong to me and it is within my right to conserve or waste them as I see fit. 

My comment was to indicate that I gave overall support for Bush's policy with regard to our presence in Iraq... even though I have a personal stake in it.  I'll point out that I did not say that I believed that every action he took was correct, but I will concede that you might have misunderstood that... particularly since you seem to believe that you know what everyone else thinks and feels. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

... and I have not one, but two sons who served/and are serving in Iraq.  Both from Fort Carson.  One of whom is sitting upstairs from me at this very moment.  Seems I (and Firm) may have a closer handle on what is going on there.


Which assumes that you have some special insight because you are somehow the only parents of those in a military force of what now, 140,000 in Iraq?


Ummm... did you read what I wrote at all? 

No where did I state that I had exclusive knowledge, but just because others have children in the military, that does not invalidate my insight.

I have two who served or are serving in Iraq.  Both stationed at Fort Carson.  One who is currently staying with me (and to whom I have talked to about this situation).  Yes, this does give me special insight into the particular issue you raised about what is going on at Fort Carson.

Trying to distort what I said will not help you circumvent the points I've made.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Yes, there have been some problems with soldiers who've returned from deployment, breaking the law.  No, it isn't as prevalent as The Gazette of Colorado Springs makes it out to be.  You have to realize that there is a tendency for local newspapers to pander to the mindset of its readers... which in this case is the residents of Colorado Springs.  There is always a good number of citizens who live close to military installations that tend to blame anything bad on the military.  Colorado Springs and Fort Carson are no exception.


Do you live in Colorado Springs?


No, but as I've said, I do have two sons who do live there, one of which is currently visiting me.  I just returned from a visit there two weeks ago, and I plan to go back when my second son returns home from Iraq next month.

How about you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

And soldiers are no more or less likely to break the law than any other citizen... whether they've been to war or not.  This, I can attest to from personal experience as I was stationed at Fort Leavenworth and worked in the military prison there... well after Vietnam and long before Iraq.


That would seem to be contradicted by the imprisoned ex-soldiers themselves, who seemingly have little reason to lie at this point.


I would disagree that the convicted criminals have little reason to lie.  If they can effectively deflect blame onto the military for their behavior and actions, it could help to mitigate their own blame, and reduce their sentences.

Aside from that, I'm not sure how I feel about having the word of convicted criminals being given more weight than someone who not only is a law-abiding citizen, but also has personal experience in the military, the legal field, AND the military legal field. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Yes, the 1-9 was in a very bad area and saw some very nasty stuff.

Yes, there has been some reasons for me, personally, to believe that the cadre at Fort Carson haven't done as good a job as they could have. 

That has nothing to do with Bush or the fact that we are in Iraq.  It's strictly a military discipline and organizational thing.


It has everything to do with Bush as he was Commander-in-Chief and the breakdowns in discipline were largely the result of intentionally ambiguous directives from the White House on down.


I'm afraid that I'm going to have to ask you for some reliable sources showing these "intentionally ambiguous directives". 

Aside from that, I'm fully aware that the Army SOP is very clear on how these types of matters are to be handled... and I'm fully aware of the tendency for individuals within the military to ignore SOP.  It is a leadership problem, I agree.  Whether I would go so far as to specifically blame the Commander-in-Chief, I don't know.  Do you think Obama should be held accountable for the more recent criminal activity?  He has been the Commander-in-Chief for what... seven months now?

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 3:32:43 PM   
Slavehandsome


Posts: 382
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline 		This is not a 'few bad apples', this is the systematic policy of the War Machine. Somehow, these stories have leaked, and its not the kind of patriotic flag-waving material we like to hear here in July. How old was the youngest torturee in Guantanamo? Ans-12. How many times did W. or Obama invite that kid's mother to a Beer Summit? Ans-0. The War Machine will make no apologies for any of their actions, and unfortunately there are certain volunteers in our professional army who might not be capable of stomaching the War Machine's morality. But if there's 1 thing we know for sure, its that no one can mandate morality for another, and thus we've arrived at this current headline. Enjoy!



(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 4:28:01 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

This is not a 'few bad apples', this is the systematic policy of the War Machine. Somehow, these stories have leaked, and its not the kind of patriotic flag-waving material we like to hear here in July. How old was the youngest torturee in Guantanamo? Ans-12. How many times did W. or Obama invite that kid's mother to a Beer Summit? Ans-0. The War Machine will make no apologies for any of their actions, and unfortunately there are certain volunteers in our professional army who might not be capable of stomaching the War Machine's morality. But if there's 1 thing we know for sure, its that no one can mandate morality for another, and thus we've arrived at this current headline. Enjoy!


"War Machine"?

... uh huh ....

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Slavehandsome)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 8:59:08 PM   
spokanesub85


Posts: 46
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

And soldiers are no more or less likely to break the law than any other citizen... whether they've been to war or not.  This, I can attest to from personal experience as I was stationed at Fort Leavenworth and worked in the military prison there... well after Vietnam and long before Iraq.



That would seem to be contradicted by the imprisoned ex-soldiers themselves, who seemingly have little reason to lie at this point.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These few examples out of a military with over a million people proves that veterans are more likely to commit crime?  Bullshit.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 7/31/2009 9:00:34 PM   
spokanesub85


Posts: 46
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

This is not a 'few bad apples', this is the systematic policy of the War Machine. Somehow, these stories have leaked, and its not the kind of patriotic flag-waving material we like to hear here in July. How old was the youngest torturee in Guantanamo? Ans-12. How many times did W. or Obama invite that kid's mother to a Beer Summit? Ans-0. The War Machine will make no apologies for any of their actions, and unfortunately there are certain volunteers in our professional army who might not be capable of stomaching the War Machine's morality. But if there's 1 thing we know for sure, its that no one can mandate morality for another, and thus we've arrived at this current headline. Enjoy!




How would you know whether or not its "a few bad apples" or not?  What are your qualifications?  Why should we listen to you?

(in reply to Slavehandsome)
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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 8/1/2009 4:42:16 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

What the soldiers say only implies that they broke the law. Their testimony is also questionable since they are themselves criminals. Blaming their crimes on p.t.s.d could well be an attempt to garner sympathy for their plight. As far as I am aware there are no statistics that suggest crime is higher amoungst army personel than civilians.



Why is someones testimony questionable because they have broken the law ? It doesnt alter the fact they are ex front line troops does it.  In the UK the probation services estimate some 8,500 prisoners and another 4,000 serving community service ect had served in Afghanistan or Iraq. The number of suicides from solders who served in the Falklands is also very high, some 250 I think, but certainly more have commited suicide than died in battle. Both figures above seem way higher than the national average to me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/3235844/Thousands-more-ex-frontline-soldiers-in-the-criminal-justice-system-than-previously-believed.html

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 8/1/2009 4:50:23 AM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Their testimony is questionable politesub because it appears to be an attempt to provide an excuse for their crimes comitted in civilian life, by making the case that such violence was institutionalised in the army. The problem in Britian [this is not so in ~America] is that as usal our country treats it's soldiers horrendously. It strains credulity to believe that Britain could manage to treat it's soldiers so poorly yet in each succesive war we become engaged in we succeed in sinking lower. There is no psychological help for soldiers returning from theatre. They are expected to go to civilian counselling programs where they are ususally told to leave as their experiences frightemn the other patients. Our method of compensaion for injuries would be a disgrace to a third world country let alone our own. We do not bother to equip them properly, we  not care about them, they return to a society of unbelievably selfish people who while willing to shriek about the pisspoor treatment of the military are still not willing to do anything as radical as act on this injustice. No wonder so many turn to alcohol.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 8/1/2009 5:03:22 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have no quarrel with your post, other than the first two lines< im not casting a slur on the returning troops, just the lack of treatment they receive. Surely the figures shown indicate a link between front line service and problems when returning home, I did say early its sad that our troops get so little support from those who send them to fight. Its nonsense that the absurd claims for compensation can pay more to someone with hurt feelings, than someone with both legs missing.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 8/1/2009 5:11:18 AM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		No problem sub I wasn't having a go. You're right that in Britian there is a link because our after care is atrocious. In America however it's much better and on the whole they have much better reintegration. The numbers for violent crime are still minimal in Britian though, the biggest problem is chronic alcoholism and homelessness. Something like 40% of all homeless people in Britian were once in the army. In this case though it seems strogly to me that these soldiers are looking for clemency. After all there is only ten of them in a unit of 4500 or so. If the violence was simply a ubiquitous one would think that there would be far higher rates of murder for the unit. Doubtless they will have seen and had to do extremely unpleasant things, the difference between them and the rest of their unit is that they have become criminals.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 8/1/2009 5:12:45 AM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Actually having reread my other post I want to make it clear it wasn't castigating yourself that bitterness is not meant for you.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 8/1/2009 11:14:15 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		No worries Starbuck. We both agree more should be done for returning troops.

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 8/2/2009 12:16:16 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		U.S. Adviser’s Blunt Memo on Iraq: Time ‘to Go Home’
WASHINGTON — A senior American military adviser in Baghdad has concluded in an unusually blunt memo that Iraqi forces suffer from entrenched deficiencies but are now able to protect the Iraqi government, and that it is time “for the U.S. to declare victory and go home.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/world/middleeast/31adviser.html?th&emc=th

enough is enough as they say

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RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors - 8/2/2009 7:07:08 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Suicide's Rising Toll
After Combat, Victims of an Inner War
Sgt. Jacob Blaylock, seated left, one of four in his Guard unit to commit suicide, at the grave of Sgt. Brandon Wallace. More Photos >

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/us/02suicide.html?_r=5

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