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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/29/2009 4:35:25 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		America has a piss poor track record when it comes to prevention. I already stated that this is part of the problem. The health care system does not want to pay for preventive treatment. Soda costs more than bottled water in most cases. My grocery bill doubles when I buy fresh fruit instead of canned fruit (only a slight exaggeration). Free range meats cost much more and are hard to find than the homone injected stuff. These are but a few examples. There are plenty of other ways to handle this issue is all I am saying. This is just cruel and a cop out instead of deal with the harder issues. The sad part is, as a society, somehow it seems acceptable and there are those who will encourage this lazy and uninspired legislation.

lovingpet

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/29/2009 4:41:07 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		As Boy Robin would say; "Holly Pastor Neimoller, Batman - Now they're coming for us Fat folk!"

What's the problem, the 'nanny' you desired so much inhibiting your style? Hell, what right do you think you have to eat and make yourself overweight? Obviously that right belongs to the government funding your 'free' health care!

FANFUCKINGTASTIC! Not enough tax money is coming from smokers, drinkers, gun owners, or others reprobates to pay for the growing bureaucracy and waste; but there are a shit-load of fat fucks that haven't been tapped into yet!

I think this issue coming to the forefront is great! Finally we've gotten the government to intrude into something that may actually get enough people pissed off to actually get off their (FAT?) asses and do something!

NEIMOLLER

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/29/2009 4:43:47 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Exactly I agree that prevention is the way forward. I don't understand about soda costing more than bottled water though that's a good thing is it not? The thing is loving pet canned fruit whilst not as good as fresh is still leagues ahead of junk food which is the main cause. I think if most people were on a diet of canned meats and vegetables the obesity rate would be slashed. THe problem, I feel, is an enormous prospensity of easy accesible and cheap food that is monstrously bad for you, which in turn is protected by the governement as it generates huge business. I think if this food was hugely taxed then it would be a good start.

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/29/2009 4:49:39 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
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Status: offline 		LOL!!!!!

For the record, I take issue with taxation of other "vices" too, but less so than this. Unless it is a pretty extreme addiction, I don't see that folks are going to die without their beer and cigarettes. Food, just plain ole food, that's another story. Plenty of folks have enough trouble affording food, or high quality food at the very least.

lovingpet

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/29/2009 4:57:26 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
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Status: offline 		Did I screw up my words again? grrrrrr.... NO...it is the bottled water that costs more. Further, it really depends on the canned fruit. The cheapest stuff available is floating in high fructose corn syrup. This is what someone is going to pick up that is trying to be health conscious, but is low on funds. This has probably close to triple the calories. That is just my point, this crappy food is CHEAP. A great many are buying it for this reason and have no other option. Raising the price of junk food is only half the battle. The good stuff has to be affordable too. Further, food is only at best a third of the battle. Preventive and high quality health care as well as a willingness to foot the bill for things like health club memberships, lifestyle improvement programs (smoking cessation, nutritionist visits, alternative care), and more are big pieces of the puzzle.

Sorry. Kids don't need to starve because the guy next door eats too many Twinkies. I don't buy it.

lovingpet

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/29/2009 5:44:12 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Care  to clarify a little bit?


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Screw this! I'm sorry, but I'm completely disgusted.

DC






Honestly, I don't know what else to say. Make another law, spread around the blame, marginalize another group -- what the hell, it's for their own good, right

DC


Pretty much. Hey no need to bare cheeks.

People had to know when they started with the smokers it was going to filter on into other groups. Thats how you hunt. You separate a few from the herd and attack while the others run away. Or for government, you sermonize one group to separate them and then you shake all the money you need from them. And when they are broke you find another group and repeat.

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 6:07:10 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
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From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Did I screw up my words again? grrrrrr.... NO...it is the bottled water that costs more. Further, it really depends on the canned fruit. The cheapest stuff available is floating in high fructose corn syrup. This is what someone is going to pick up that is trying to be health conscious, but is low on funds. This has probably close to triple the calories. That is just my point, this crappy food is CHEAP. A great many are buying it for this reason and have no other option. Raising the price of junk food is only half the battle. The good stuff has to be affordable too. Further, food is only at best a third of the battle. Preventive and high quality health care as well as a willingness to foot the bill for things like health club memberships, lifestyle improvement programs (smoking cessation, nutritionist visits, alternative care), and more are big pieces of the puzzle.

Sorry. Kids don't need to starve because the guy next door eats too many Twinkies. I don't buy it.


HEY!!!! Watch the Twinkie talk!!! The creamy filling is my daily serving of dairy.

Whereas i agree with what you are saying i cannot stress enough the importance of education here. Some of us can pick up a can of fruit cocktail and see that it is very high in calories. Others just see "fruit" and think it is healthy. They present their obesity to their PCP and tell him they DO eat healthy...lots of fruit, etc. Therefore the doctor proceeds to run a series of medical tests, searching for the cause.




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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 6:35:06 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Because some people can't control themselves, many believe that the government has the obligation to take everyone's twinkies away.

No fudge, no ice cream, no butter, no fast food...

Then they'll likely move on to banning every food choice which isn't perfectly politically correct.

Why don't we all just give up now, and start wearing our gray uniforms and lining up for our daily ration of three servings of plain white rice.

Take anyone caught smoking or showing any other sign of independant thought out and...

Well, you know. Do to them the same as what they did in all those other communist countries.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
HEY!!!! Watch the Twinkie talk!!! The creamy filling is my daily serving of dairy.

Whereas i agree with what you are saying i cannot stress enough the importance of education here. Some of us can pick up a can of fruit cocktail and see that it is very high in calories. Others just see "fruit" and think it is healthy. They present their obesity to their PCP and tell him they DO eat healthy...lots of fruit, etc. Therefore the doctor proceeds to run a series of medical tests, searching for the cause.






< Message edited by Sanity -- 7/30/2009 6:37:19 AM >

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 10:04:09 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Nothing wrong here that a fast pick-up truck and a long rope won't take care of.

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 10:50:55 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
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Status: offline 		White rice is high in carbs. Off the list..

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 4:38:02 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Did I screw up my words again? grrrrrr.... NO...it is the bottled water that costs more. Further, it really depends on the canned fruit. The cheapest stuff available is floating in high fructose corn syrup. This is what someone is going to pick up that is trying to be health conscious, but is low on funds. This has probably close to triple the calories. That is just my point, this crappy food is CHEAP. A great many are buying it for this reason and have no other option. Raising the price of junk food is only half the battle. The good stuff has to be affordable too. Further, food is only at best a third of the battle. Preventive and high quality health care as well as a willingness to foot the bill for things like health club memberships, lifestyle improvement programs (smoking cessation, nutritionist visits, alternative care), and more are big pieces of the puzzle.

Sorry. Kids don't need to starve because the guy next door eats too many Twinkies. I don't buy it.


HEY!!!! Watch the Twinkie talk!!! The creamy filling is my daily serving of dairy.

Whereas i agree with what you are saying i cannot stress enough the importance of education here. Some of us can pick up a can of fruit cocktail and see that it is very high in calories. Others just see "fruit" and think it is healthy. They present their obesity to their PCP and tell him they DO eat healthy...lots of fruit, etc. Therefore the doctor proceeds to run a series of medical tests, searching for the cause.





I thought you got your serving of cream from other sources Holly

As for education, there's another one of those big links in the chain I forgot earlier. It is yet another areas that could be improved to help the situation without resorting to this stupidity. Educational classes are rarely, if ever, paid for by insurance, employers, or anyone except individuals. Those who can't afford to pay to learn this information will continue with unwittingly poor eating habits. Further, why on earth even let this crap hit the shelves in the first place? The food industry can do better. There just is no incentive for them to do so.

lovingpet

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 4:42:00 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		Damn well said.

Maybe if they finally marginalize enough people, enough people will realize it's not right to marginalize anyone.

The one tax that will probably never come though, sadly, is the idiot tax. It would certainly get the majority of the population up in arms. Way too many affected.


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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 4:59:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Educational classes

Suggested Curriculum:
EAT LESS
GET OFF YOUR ASS AND EXERCISE
REPEAT DAILY
CLASS DISMISSED

Master's Degree Class:
If it tastes good - it's fattening; eat limited quantities.

Doctorate Class:
Eliminate from your diet everything white or made from white ingredients and you will lose weight.

(Wonder if I get apply for a government grant using some of that undistributed 'stimulus' money?)

quote:

Further, why on earth even let this crap hit the shelves in the first place?

You propose as a solution to put the government in charge of determining what goes on grocery store shelves because people are too stupid or don't have the ability to make a good decision?

You have been properly indoctrinated.


quote:

The food industry can do better. There just is no incentive for them to do so.
The food industry has a GREAT incentive. You, me, and other people buy it, they make money. Buy and eat too much you get fat and they make more money.

Not really a difficult concept and not one which should require legislation or change results. I think the formula also works in reverse. Don't buy it, don't eat it, you consume less calories, you lose weight. Enough follow that formula and ultimately the product is removed from the store shelves without the need for a bureaucrat to monitor your buying or eating habits.

However I think a $100/pizza tax, a $5/12 ounces of soda tax, and a $25/gallon ice-cream tax would be FANFUCKINGTASTIC!

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 5:20:28 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		\Nope, I don't think I ever proposed that the government do any of the above. That would be replacing one piece of stupid legislation with another. What I AM saying is that it is not as simple as just choosing to buy the good stuff and let the bad stuff die off. Many, many cannot, under any circumstances, afford to do so. I know people who eat next to nothing, have very physical jobs and enjoy very active recreational activities, but they are fat as lard. Why? It is simple. Their paycheck is very small. They have very little background in nutrition, nor do they understand how their own body works adequately. They often have employers who supply no, or minimal, insurance and see a doctor only when they are pretty sure they are dying.

There are plenty of ingredients that make it into food, or are used to raise said food, that it is no secret is incredibly detrimental to health. And it is still pumped into everyday foods why? Further, how is it that a peach that is planted, grown, picked, and shipped is more expensive than one that goes through all this and then is peeled, sliced, submerged in syrup, packaged, and then shipped? Something is desperately broken. It is ridiculous. This is food, not buying a used car. Buyer beware seems a tad inappropriate in this case.

Fine. Tax the hell out of junk food. Go for it. Now the people who can't afford to eat the good stuff now, but subsist on what they can manage to afford have NOTHING to eat. Yup, they'll lose weight alright. Then they will starve and die. Further, the new demand for whole foods will likely drive UP the prices for those items since there is a naturally limited supply. Logically, the good stuff should be cheaper by default WITHOUT any need for government intervention. There is just less expense needed to bring it to market. In a twist of, I don't know, insanity maybe, this is not the case. Whole food prices need to plummet. Leave the Twinkies be! For Holly's sake? Pretty please????

lovingpet

who happens to not eat Twinkies at all

edited to add: Oh, and the whole exercise thing. People just take for granted that everyone has the unlimited ability to stand, move, bear weight and such. It just isn't the case. When medical problems are mismanaged, ignored, denied, etc by the doctors that are supposed to help, something odd, and all the person's "fault" I'm sure, like obesity, can occur. Fascinating how that happens! The solution eat better (now that I can't hold a decent job due to my health, thanks doc) and exercise (which I was doing faithfully before winding up in this condition, again great help there doc). The vicious circle has begun.

< Message edited by lovingpet -- 7/30/2009 5:30:53 PM >

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 5:40:53 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

I think the argument is not about ill health but abuse. If you occasionally smoke you have an elevated chance of respiratory complications. If you smoke 2oo ciggarettes a day you dramatically increase your chances. If you get drunk once a week you increase your chances of liver problems. If you drink 6 bottles of vodka a day you guarantee yourself health problems. If you sometimes eat fatty and junk foods then you have a higher chance of cardiac problems. If you devour 20,000 calories a day again you guarantee yourself problems. Obesity is abuse of food. Just as alcoholism is abuse of alcohol. Therefore the argument is not simply about the costs of maintaining health but of who is more deserving. Recently in the u.k. a young man [22] who had been a chronic alcoholic for 5 years was denied a transplant in favour of someone else on the basis that he was not as deserving [he subsequently has died sadly] as he had abused his body. This debate is not soley about the financial cost.


Do you have a link to any information on the transplant issues?

Reminds me of those who wanted to deny David Crosby a liver transplant due to his diabetes and past drug problems.

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 5:44:14 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
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Status: offline 		Willbeur as I am largely technologically illiterate when it comes to computers I don't know how to make a link to a story. If you type u.k. boy denied liver transplant into google though you get plenty of hits all about it.

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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 7:29:31 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Public libraries are free, and they're stocked with recipe books, nutrition books for every level of reader - even videos and picture books.

Many libraries even have bookmobiles, they practically deliver.

At what point are people responsible for themselves? For their own education and well being. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
I thought you got your serving of cream from other sources Holly

As for education, there's another one of those big links in the chain I forgot earlier. It is yet another areas that could be improved to help the situation without resorting to this stupidity. Educational classes are rarely, if ever, paid for by insurance, employers, or anyone except individuals. Those who can't afford to pay to learn this information will continue with unwittingly poor eating habits. Further, why on earth even let this crap hit the shelves in the first place? The food industry can do better. There just is no incentive for them to do so.

lovingpet


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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 7:43:27 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Never said they weren't. I can also attest to many public libraries' volumes to be grossly outdated. The best information comes at a price.

lovingpet

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 7:57:28 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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People can't learn about nutrition in Libraries?

Well then, there is absolutely no hope. Just give up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Never said they weren't. I can also attest to many public libraries' volumes to be grossly outdated. The best information comes at a price.

lovingpet


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RE: L.A. Times: Tough love for fat people - 7/30/2009 8:23:30 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		They can learn.... some. Up to date information, nope. Cutting edge information or information that has not yet been fully accepted by the medical profession, unlikely. And let's not even get into cracked up information on the internet. Look, if insurance companies want to bitch about how much fat people are costing them, then they can pay for preventive measures instead. Pay a nickle to save a dollar. Sounds like good business to me.

Seriously, I am all for personal responsibility, but that extends also to businesses and policymakers too. Please pardon the incredible pun, but obese people feel the weight of personal responsibility pressed upon them every single day. It would be absolutely astounding to discover how many people are obese due to things other than a complete and utter lack of self control. God forbid that some very real, but unpopular issues be addressed. Just point an accusatory finger and skip merrily off. And remind me once again how making a public policy has anything to do with getting people to take personal responsibility? Besides, it's worked sooooo well with smokers and that is absolutely just a straight up addiction. Taxation is a revenue source plain and simple. It has NOTHING to do with what is good for anybody. It has to do with filling the national coffers for various programs, least of which is health care despite the claim that this is why this policy makes so much sense. Want to talk about personal responsibility? How about the government stop handing out money to failed banks and businesses? Then there might be some money available for such things as.... gasp.... health care!

lovingpet

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 40
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