RE: "how can he/she control me..."

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: "how can he/she control me..."

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: "how can he/she control me..."

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 9:00:54 AM

GYPZYQUEEN

Posts: 730
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline

OP:

If I am not present to my self I cannot be present
to anyone else.
If I cannot discipline myself I cannot have a disciple.

I recently lost 100 lbs..a self control issue..before resuming my "boy" search.
.How can I expect to lead and organize..mentor and mould if I cannot keep brownies from my lips?
If I am disorganized in finance ..ill prepared for future...or act in immature and uncontroled ways such as with speech...violence..substance abuse..impulsive actions..
HOW CAN I Master another person..
HOW could they trust me with their body,mind or soul...?

GQ

< Message edited by GYPZYQUEEN -- 7/29/2009 9:01:24 AM >

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 21

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 9:05:01 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I think we should ALL have self control!

I am naturally suspicious of a person who wants to be a dominant but has issues with anger management, addiction to illegal drugs, a whole host of things. Is a person a failure as a dominant because he or she smokes, or is overweight, or can't get to an appointment on time without a reminder? Dominants are not PERFECT. I do try to hold myself to a higher personal standard, but yanno? I am not the hot young thing that I was. Sometimes I have ice cream for dinner. Does that mean that I lack self-control?

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 22

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 10:09:51 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

"...when they can't even control themselves?"

Submissives: ever been turned off a dominant by a real or percieved lack of self control on their part? Temper, poor habits, etc?

A while back, I would have believed the initial statement.
However, people make mistakes or shit happens. So no.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 23

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 10:22:27 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

"...when they can't even control themselves?"

Submissives: ever been turned off a dominant by a real or percieved lack of self control on their part? Temper, poor habits, etc?

A while back, I would have believed the initial statement.
However, people make mistakes or shit happens. So no.

the.dark.

Hi, Dark,

Sure. Nobody's at their best all the time. But the way I read the OP, it's more a question of behavioral patterns. I would never lose my interest in someone over a single instance of losing their temper, or an inability to keep their lawn mowed, or a cluttered house.

But I am going to take note of it. And I'm going to watch. And if I notice that they lose their temper on a regular basis, or the unmowed lawn comes with a sink that's always full of dirty dishes and a laundry basket that never seems to find it's way anywhere near the laundry room, I'm going to take note. And I'm going to start to wonder why they constantly lose their temper, or can't organize their lives to the point where they never have such basics as clean clothes to wear and clean dishes to eat with. And I'm going to ask myself if this is someone who's in control of their life. I'm going to wonder if the dirty clothes, the dirty dishes, and the yard full of trash are just because they're busy, or because they can't organize their life.

You're right - shit happens in every life. But for some people, shit seems to happen a lot more often than other people. An awful lot more. And those people may become very good friends, but they're not going to become my partner.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 24

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 10:29:00 AM

TurboJugend

Posts: 481
Joined: 6/15/2009
Status: offline

quote:

Dominants: how important is self control to your "vision" of dominant behaviour? Has it ever been an issue for yourself?

I have no problems with self control. But when I see people loose it..it is often because they are pushed to the limits by others....and not just a little.
I can forgive it then. Things in life happen that makes you do weird things. Self control is just one of the feautures people have and can loose..like other features.
If it happens weekly..then you might have other problems.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 25

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 10:37:22 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

Hello Pandapandaburningbright...

I think that the concept of self control is cool. But I don't find it an unattractive trait, but I do find how people are treated to be something far more important. So for example, a smoker can make a great dominant, but if they cannot control their smoking, does that make them a worse one?
I would still take it on an individual basis, and so I cannot catagorically say that a lack of self control means that a submissive would be looked after any less, or cared for any less.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 26

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 10:39:54 AM

Apocalypso

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline

I think we also sometimes may be prone to seeing things as a lack of selfcontrol, when the truth is that they're actually habits we don't like.

If your dominant isn't an alcoholic, but is going out and getting drunk with his friends every Saturday, that's not a matter of selfcontrol. That's the fact he likes getting drunk with his friends and you wish he didn't. Dominant spent 200 quid buying Star Wars figures on Ebay? Not selfcontrol. He's a geek. And when you're not around he makes them have battles with each other and does funny little ewok voices. Just thought you'd like to know.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 27

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 10:42:58 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
Dominant spent 200 quid buying Star Wars figures on Ebay? Not selfcontrol. He's a geek. And when you're not around he makes them have battles with each other and does funny little ewok voices. Just thought you'd like to know.

Have you been around our house again?????

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Apocalypso)

Post #: 28

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 10:50:23 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I think we should ALL have self control!

I am naturally suspicious of a person who wants to be a dominant but has issues with anger management, addiction to illegal drugs, a whole host of things. Is a person a failure as a dominant because he or she smokes, or is overweight, or can't get to an appointment on time without a reminder?

Maybe. Overweight isn't necessarily a big deal, but for me, smoking definitely is. What's the difference between an addiction to a legal drug and an illegal drug? An addiction is an addiction is an addiction. I've got a lot of friends who smoke, and i love them dearly. They're wonderful human beings, and I'd do anything for them if they needed it - except date them. Hygiene aside, if someone allows themselves to become - and remain - addicted to a deadly drug, we are most definitely not compatible in terms of priorities and decisionmaking. I used to smoke; I understand it's very hard to quit. But if you're not able or willing to do very difficult things in order to do what needs to be done, you're not leading me.

Being late for appointments... well, hell, I'm often 5 minutes lat myself. Anyone can misjudge traffic, or distance, or whatever. But it becomes a question of degree. I actually did break up with someone once, a wonderful person I really cared for, because she was constantly late for everything. I mean everything. In her case, being late for appointments was part of a larger pattern of behavior that made her life complete, constant chaos. If we were supposed to be somewhere at 1 o'clock, I couldn't even get her to start thinking about it until ten minutes to 1. OK, that's not a problem if you're just going to a party, but when it becomes every single time you have any plans whatsoever, it becomes more and more problematic. I gave up even trying to go to movies, plays, or concerts with her, because no matter what we had tickets to, we never got there until it was half over. Dinner reservations? Forget it. We could only eat at places that didn't require reservations. Trying to buy a house together? Good luck with that. Realtors and mortgage brokers have a tendency to cross you off their list when you miss 4 or 5 appointments in a row. The day i helped her move, I arrived at her house at 8 AM to find that she hadn't even bought boxes yet, much less started to pack. It just hadn't occured to her, because it was more than 5 minutes in the future.

It was constant chaos. Every aspect of her life. Every single thing she did was always in complete freefall because she was incapable of basic time management. So yes, absolutely - she was a failure as a dominant (and, I hate to say it, as a functioning adult), because she couldn't manage her life. I cared about her very deeply, but I'm not going to live a whole lifetime like that for anybody.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Dominants are not PERFECT. I do try to hold myself to a higher personal standard, but yanno? I am not the hot young thing that I was. Sometimes I have ice cream for dinner. Does that mean that I lack self-control?

Fuck, no! It means you have the sense to live the life that makes you happy. And, hopefully, the good manners to, uh... share. Maybe? Just a little?

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 29

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 11:14:37 AM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

As more of a life rule, I want to see people demonstrating a good grasp of self control and try to practice what I preach as well. In a dominant, however, I do see it as upping the anty a bit. This person wants to direct my affairs and determine the path for my life. They better darn well have their own house in order. Having a few human areas is not the same thing as a lack of self control, however. Character and intergrity count for a lot. I don't want to see my dominant being led around by the nose by manipulative people, an addiction, or more or less blown about by any and every puff of wind in life. I do want to see, in those moments when mistakes are made, how that dominant conducts him/herself and corrects the issue in the future tells me a great deal about that person.

Still, all in all, self control is one of those things that I just expect to be present in any mature individual's life. The ability to act and not react is very valuable. It is a trait I strive to instill in my children and one I nurture in myself and seek in a partner. I don't presume that someone could not control me without having control of myself, it is more a matter of whether I want to be led to be healthy or unhealthy. I choose healthy, and that means choosing a partner with a handle on themselves.

lovingpet

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 30

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 11:19:42 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

Wow, ATC, I guess I've been a crappy dominant figure all these years. *shrugs* I have dirty laundry (usually it makes it to the hamper... sometimes it just makes it to the hallway in front of the bathroom. Occasionally, it doesn't make it any further than a pile next to my easy-chair, but SR bitches about that). I have dirty dishes (ok, I'm supposed to also have someone who is supposed to be -doing- those dishes, but she's been away on family business, so as soon as I get home from work and do the dishes, and then make dinner, there's a sink full of dishes again -- go figure--and sometimes I'm too tired to do more than rinse them off for the dishwasher for a couple of days running). I have piles of books and projects stacked up in my corner -- some of which may have been nominally forgotten, so I guess I'll have to look and see if there is anything there that I really need to finish up soon -- if not, it will probably go back in the pile. I have two beloveds (both free members of the household) who smoke, and I don't try to guilt them or bully them into quitting. I've never bounced a check, but I have gone over the limit on my credit cards a few times, and I've got a crapload of medical debt. I'm fat, and not motivated to work through the MS muscle-weakness issues and the massive amount of pain that it takes to spend an hour at the gym every day after 10-11 hr days at work. I occasionally watch TV when I should be doing my French homework or editing a journal article for work (though I won't sacrifice time for my fiction writing or my writing mentor's assignments for TV -or- dishes!).

You know, sometimes I think we just make this -way- harder on ourselves than we need to. If my foibles mean that I am a crappy domina, then fine, I'm a crappy domina. Maybe someone will find me who doesn't mind picking up dirty socks, scraping dinner dishes, and who likes the fact that I nit-pick how the new books are arranged on the bookshelves (after all, SR took a few weeks to get them all into alphabetical order -TWICE... once before our move, and then again after, because the stupid movers couldn't manage to put the books IN ORDER in the damned boxes!). If not, then so be it.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/29/2009 11:21:50 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 31

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 11:23:02 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello Pandapandaburningbright...

I think that the concept of self control is cool. But I don't find it an unattractive trait, but I do find how people are treated to be something far more important. So for example, a smoker can make a great dominant, but if they cannot control their smoking, does that make them a worse one?
I would still take it on an individual basis, and so I cannot catagorically say that a lack of self control means that a submissive would be looked after any less, or cared for any less.

I both agree and disagree, Dark. I think it probably comes down to what someone is looking for in a dominant. It isn't a question of whether someone is or is not a good dominant; it's a question of whether they're a good dominant for me.

I need someone whose priorities in life are compatible with mine, and whose decisionmaking process is rational to me. Smoking does not necessarily make them any less capable as a dominant, but they clearly don't have compatible priorities and I don't trust the way they make major decisions in their life. Or, maybe they do have similar priorities, but lack the willpower to quit. Either way, that's not someone I trust to be controlling my life, because either my prioritization and decisionmaking are significantly superior to hers in terms of the way I want to live my life, or my willpower and self-discipline are. Either way, why let her lead me when I can do a much better job myself?

Edit - double word, and left one out

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 7/29/2009 12:05:12 PM >

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 32

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 11:40:04 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

You know, sometimes I think we just make this -way- harder on ourselves than we need to

I'm not sure if you're replying to me or not. It looks as though you are. If that's the case, i would suggest that one example of making things much harder than we need to make them would be not reading the posts to which we are responding. If you're not replying to me, then this response doesn't apply, and you should feel free to ignore it.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 33

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 12:30:49 PM

WickedZer0

Posts: 11
Joined: 2/9/2009
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

I think we also sometimes may be prone to seeing things as a lack of selfcontrol, when the truth is that they're actually habits we don't like.

If your dominant isn't an alcoholic, but is going out and getting drunk with his friends every Saturday, that's not a matter of selfcontrol. That's the fact he likes getting drunk with his friends and you wish he didn't. Dominant spent 200 quid buying Star Wars figures on Ebay? Not selfcontrol. He's a geek. And when you're not around he makes them have battles with each other and does funny little ewok voices. Just thought you'd like to know.

I laughed out loud.

From going through all the posts, a lot of ideas here about self-control seem to be nothing more then opinions on what self-control is. Saying someone doesn't have it because they do unhealthy or even self-destructive things is judgmental and socialistic. Aren't we following our urges, and in the eyes of the masses, our unhealthy desires/needs?
Aren't we then lacking in self-control, by not controlling them, not being NORMAL?

_____________________________

"Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life. Aim above morality. Be not simply good; be good for something."
Henry David Thoreau

(in reply to Apocalypso)

Post #: 34

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 12:43:07 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedZer0

From going through all the posts, a lot of ideas here about self-control seem to be nothing more then opinions on what self-control is. Saying someone doesn't have it because they do unhealthy or even self-destructive things is judgmental and socialistic. Aren't we following our urges, and in the eyes of the masses, our unhealthy desires/needs?
Aren't we then lacking in self-control, by not controlling them, not being NORMAL?

No, because your argument is based upon a false comparison. To stick with one example for the sake of simplicity, it's not judgmental or socialistic to say that smoking is unhealthy - it's simply an objective fact, and it has nothing to do with how it's perceived in "the eyes of the masses". Smoking is unhealthy, period, no matter how prickly and defensive some smokers choose to get when they hear that. The fact that many vanilla people feel that what we do is unhealthy is subjective and completely irrelevant, unless of course you agree with them. If you feel that practicing BDSM is, in fact, unhealthy, then go ahead and make that argument and draw your comparison.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to WickedZer0)

Post #: 35

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 1:32:11 PM

Apocalypso

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
I need someone whose priorities in life are compatible with mine, and whose decisionmaking process is rational to me. Smoking does not necessarily make them any less capable as a dominant, but they clearly don't have compatible priorities and I don't trust the way they make major decisions in their life.

As a smoker, that is perfectly valid to me. My basic argument is that I enjoy smoking and I consider that enjoyment to be more significant then the long-term effects. And that springs from the general viewpoint that the present is what matters.

Now, I think that's entirely rational and internally consistent. But, quite obviously, it would mean we have entirely different worldviews and would not be compatible. I suspect neither of us are going to be crying ourselves to sleep because of that.

The only thing I roll my eyes at slightly is the tendency to leap to the conclusion that if something is disapproved of, it must be there because of lack of self-control. Actually, I've given up smoking for a year before. Because somebody bet me five hundred pounds I couldn't. But I started again, because I wanted to. I find it somewhat strange that some people seem so determined to absolve me of responsibility for my actions, by presenting my choice as not freely made.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 36

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 1:57:23 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Depends on what it is.

Anger? Not going there at all. Too much damage possible, both emotional and physical.

Smoking? I know that for about 20% of smokers it is easier to cold turkey heroin than nicotine. I am not going to hold that against them and say they are out of control. I'm not compatible because I'm allergic to cigarette smoke even if only on their clothes but that's my issue, not theirs.

Over eating? In a world where the palate is one of the longest lasting pleasures, I don't expect people to have no interest in food. And I object to people who want me to cook for them and show no interest or appreciation of my work.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 37

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 2:01:16 PM

Venatrix

Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

As a smoker, that is perfectly valid to me. My basic argument is that I enjoy smoking and I consider that enjoyment to be more significant then the long-term effects. And that springs from the general viewpoint that the present is what matters.

And there's nothing wrong with this viewpoint. My question is, if you should be so unfortunate as to come down with smoking-related diseases, will you do the honourable thing and kill yourself before you become a burden on the health system? If scarce health resources are going to be allocated, I'd rather see the oncology ward direct those resources to a kid with leukaemia, rather than an adult who knew what the consequences of smoking were likely to be and chose to engage in it, anyway.

I don't think kink or vanilla enters into it at this point. Someone making a stupid decision is someone making a stupid decision. If a sub has no problem submitting to a dominant who makes stupid decisions, that's his or her business.

(in reply to Apocalypso)

Post #: 38

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 2:13:02 PM

Apocalypso

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix
And there's nothing wrong with this viewpoint. My question is, if you should be so unfortunate as to come down with smoking-related diseases, will you do the honourable thing and kill yourself before you become a burden on the health system?

If non-smokers are given the entire tax burden for pensions, absolutely. (Seriously. Smoking saves more money overall because people die younger on average. Add to that the high percentage of taxes paid on cigs and this is actually a really silly road for non-smokers, at least in the UK, to go down. Because the truth is that we're subsidising the rest of you, not the other way round).

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Venatrix)

Post #: 39

RE: "how can he/she control me..." - 7/29/2009 2:19:31 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Wow, ATC, I guess I've been a crappy dominant figure all these years. *shrugs* I have dirty laundry (usually it makes it to the hamper... sometimes it just makes it to the hallway in front of the bathroom. Occasionally, it doesn't make it any further than a pile next to my easy-chair, but SR bitches about that). I have dirty dishes (ok, I'm supposed to also have someone who is supposed to be -doing- those dishes, but she's been away on family business, so as soon as I get home from work and do the dishes, and then make dinner, there's a sink full of dishes again -- go figure--and sometimes I'm too tired to do more than rinse them off for the dishwasher for a couple of days running). I have piles of books and projects stacked up in my corner -- some of which may have been nominally forgotten, so I guess I'll have to look and see if there is anything there that I really need to finish up soon -- if not, it will probably go back in the pile. I have two beloveds (both free members of the household) who smoke, and I don't try to guilt them or bully them into quitting. I've never bounced a check, but I have gone over the limit on my credit cards a few times, and I've got a crapload of medical debt. I'm fat, and not motivated to work through the MS muscle-weakness issues and the massive amount of pain that it takes to spend an hour at the gym every day after 10-11 hr days at work. I occasionally watch TV when I should be doing my French homework or editing a journal article for work (though I won't sacrifice time for my fiction writing or my writing mentor's assignments for TV -or- dishes!).

Dame Calla

You know as a service-orientated submissive I admit to a little bit of drooling as I read through this... quite a few opportunities to serve here.

But you see my point is is that when there's two people in a relationship or dynamic they interact, feed off each other, influence each other and also motivate each other.

I'm pretty sure that with someone like Dame Calla there could be some chain reactions, wherein she wouldn't need to worry about stuff like laundry and dishes, cleaning or being organized because she could just turn to me and ask and know just exactly how things stand and where things are, which relieves a burden and which she in turn would find ways of motivating me which would lead onto something else and so on... and I bet you we'd still find time to sit down and discuss writing over coffee.

Shakespeare once said,'There is nothing good or bad in this world, only thinking makes it so.' It's that same principle, is the glass half empty or half full? Now someone else might see the above as a lack of self control, laziness even, but I not, I just see opportunities to serve, to interact, and without being a perfectionist by any means the chance to make someone's life a little easier, a little more pleasant, and a little happier.

None of the above would affect in any way how I see her as a person or a dominant.

_____________________________

CM's Resident Lyricist
also Facebook
http://stella.baker.tripod.com/
50NZpoints
Q2
Simply Q

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 40

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: "how can he/she control me..."

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094