RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 1:45:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

wait... live forever? maybe we are thinking of two different things. explain what you mean by "end of care" necause, by your second statement, i can see we are.

quote:

Yes, we should focus on those without health insurance who cant afford it (far less than 50 million by the way). Socializing and compromising the entire system to benefit the minority isnt the way to do it. And that isnt what is eating up health care premiums...end of life care is the single biggest component of total healthcare spending, representing 10-12% of all spending. 40% of Medicare spending is spent in the last 30 days of life.


End of life care...did you leave out "life" as a typo, because I dont see anywhere I accidentally omitted it.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 1:47:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Once again you are back to the economic reality and bioethics crossroad, and cost/benefit analysis should drive those decisions.
And why do you feel that an insurance company employee with no medical training and incentives to deny payment is more qualified to make that decision than a doctor?




Nope. And since it doesnt happen, shouldnt be a concern. And if you really believe that insurance companies have "incentives to deny legitimate payments", then you don't understand the insurance business...or any other business for that matter.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 1:48:34 PM)

define what you mean




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 1:48:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

so, in essence, that would decide who lives or dies. when they reach their cap... so sorry? i do believe there is a lawsuit pending over a man who was extradited from a hospital against his guardiands wishes... even though he was not a citizen. he was hit by a drunk driver, ended up with the mental capacity of a 4th grader.

Medicine isnt about health rationing. its about healing. if more people had access to better healthcare, the end of life care wouldnt be as drastic.


Yes, so sorry. When are people going to understand that if youre going to "live forever" then you have to be prepared to pay for the medical costs for it, and why the hell should somebody else foot the bill?

And no, if more people had access to better healthcare, end of life costs would be exactly the same, just pushed off 6 months or a year, at least until someone discovers the fountain of youth.


Please promise us all, that you will never apply for the position of deciding who will get care and
who will not get care, if that position is ever created!
Thank you!


I think you might be too quick to deny coverage.
No offense, willbeurdaddy.[;)]



Lets hope no one other than a patient/family and doctor continue to make those decisions.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 1:49:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53



As for insurance, are you trying to say there is no upper limit on policies, because that is laughable. A quick internet search shows that some medical conditions are not covered.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14235415


Nope, I didnt say that.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 1:52:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Once again you are back to the economic reality and bioethics crossroad, and cost/benefit analysis should drive those decisions.
And why do you feel that an insurance company employee with no medical training and incentives to deny payment is more qualified to make that decision than a doctor?




Nope. And since it doesnt happen, shouldnt be a concern. And if you really believe that insurance companies have "incentives to deny legitimate payments", then you don't understand the insurance business...or any other business for that matter.


no, they rubber stamp first claims... then make people fight for their rightful claims. been there recently, so i know its still an on going process.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 1:53:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

define what you mean

what I mean by what? End of life care? It is just what the words say...measures taken during a patients last days, generally to prolong life a little longer and to mitigate pain. Its a standard health care term, so I'm not sure why we have a disconnect.

http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/ptsafety/chap49.htm




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 1:56:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Once again you are back to the economic reality and bioethics crossroad, and cost/benefit analysis should drive those decisions.
And why do you feel that an insurance company employee with no medical training and incentives to deny payment is more qualified to make that decision than a doctor?




Nope. And since it doesnt happen, shouldnt be a concern. And if you really believe that insurance companies have "incentives to deny legitimate payments", then you don't understand the insurance business...or any other business for that matter.


no, they rubber stamp first claims... then make people fight for their rightful claims. been there recently, so i know its still an on going process.


There may be instances of ambiguity where the legitimacy of a claim is challenged, but it cannot be systemic policy to deny legitimate claims within an organization or their asses would be sued from now to forever, not to mention that since employers are still the purchaser of the majority of health insurance, and the last thing any employer wants is their employees to be hassled, no company with that reputation could stay in business.

Again, overpayments are far more frequent then underpayments in the hundreds of claim audits as the office of my former employer I worked out of showed.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:02:11 PM)

so we have two issues.

the first being pain management for those who are terminally ill. at what point do we state... you no longer qualify for pain meds/pain management?

this i have issue with. i dont believe we can just say to a human being.. so sorry for your luck.. you dont qualify. and pretty much, by this point, these people have ran out of all options, and medicaid/medicare/charities pick up the cost. your suggestion would be akin to torture.

the second being prolonging of life

i have never liked the idea of keeping someone alive, just because we can. sometimes life support is needed or warrented. some medical issues can be reversed with time... someone in a coma, depending on the why can wake up. some cannot. once you initiate, its hard to disconnect. but i do NOT believe an insurance company should have that power, in either scenario, to decide life and death decisions.

Over payments and under payments are not the fault of the ensured. yet you seem to want to make it their fault. they are at the mercy of a health care system that long ago stopped giving a damn about lives and started worrying about the bottom line.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:06:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

but i do NOT believe an insurance company should have that power, in either scenario, to decide life and death decisions.


And therefore I take it that you believe the government should not have that power also.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:09:21 PM)

That power should be with the medical team and family. Its about time insurance companies and lawyers butted out of things like this. Medical reviews would take care of worrying about a Dr who "overcharged" for his services or added on for unnecessary ones. And, as i said before, if the AMA would grow a set of balls, then the bad Dr's would quickly be weeded out.




Brain -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:10:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Just the name 'single payer' is basically a fraud. 45% of Americans pay NO federal taxes. Those folks will not be paying a dime for their insurance. Small businesses and the rest of us will be picking up the tab. When everyone starts paying something, or anything, I might go along with you. I am tired of free loaders in this country thinking health care is free.


you are totally misinformed and brainwashed with Adam Smith's invisible hand and you do not
know what you're talking about




Brain -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:15:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

What do you perceive as problems with the current system, and how does single payer resolve them?


it's too expensive, the present system and it is no longer affordable. It is inefficient and would bankrupt the United States budget.

Removing excess corporation profits and inefficient administrative expenses will allow the American people to get value for their money. Now you're paying a lot more and getting much less in return compared to other countries













Brain -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:18:49 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Many of the current problems with the current health care system, are redundant.
 
I really did not expect YOU to be in favor of the Single Payer System, but I prefer
it over what is currently being suggested.

Thanks for keeping an open mind!


The point is that single payer doesnt address any of the issues you cite as being a problem.

Come up with something new and my mind is totally open, such as my post about a clinic model for covering the un/under insured (due to need). There is nothing about single payer that is new or unique.


that's not true. Single-payer addresses many issues and the American people will be much better off for it. It is worth
fighting for like stem cells




Brain -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:21:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I'm with you, Mia. Even Obama admitted it in his speech last week when he made the comment about how the health care plan on the table wouldn't cover every American, because the only way to do that was with a Single-Payer plan.

The only reason -not- to consider a single-payer plan is because the poor insurance companies, big-money pharma, and the for-profit sickness centers won't be raking in the big bucks any more. Every other civilized nation on the planet has figured this out. You tell -me- what that means about Americans.

How do we pay for it? Add a 4% flat, pre-deduction tax on every single American bringing in an income to the existing Medicare tax -- it will STILL be less than what most of us are paying in premiums, co-pays, cost-shares, and non-covered or under-covered costs. Heck, a 10% tax a year would still be cheaper than what I've paid in out-of-pocket/premiums/co-pays for the past 3 years!

Completely disgusted with the whole mess...
Dame Calla


At least you are honest and admitting that what you really want is a handout.



I think you want corporate welfare




tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:23:25 PM)

FR~

Here is what gets me. Two insurance companies may very well go under because they lost their Tricare contracts. which should be quite telling about the profitability of a single payer system. one covers approximately 9 million people.. and the bid pays around 21 billion dollars. and most people LOVE the system.

It must be worth money, the companies are BIDDING. so dont try and tell me its NOT profitable.




Brain -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:23:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Awmslave, what has that got to do with helping the less fortunate.

Willbeurdaddy, what gets me is I never see anyone who moans about paying mandatory taxes for a health system for all, moan about mandatory taxes for unused star war systems ect. Whats more important ?



Right now, neither one. Long term...advancement of defense systems. National defense is the role of the Federal government, health care isn't.



that's not true either. Healthcare has evolved into a public good like the police or fire department




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:32:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


You wont be able to find anyone in the UK denied a knee replacement due to age. Usually expensive trug treatments are denied by the use of a qaly when there is cheaper treatment available. Chemotherapy is used instead of expensive drugs, for example.



If you are saying that treatment isnt denied altogether because of cost per QALY, I highly doubt it. And even if it is just deciding between treatements, interjecting an impersonal standard on the quality of someones life on a scale of 0 to 1 is highly objectionable on its face.

What is Steven Hawkings' QALY? I think he would tell you that as long as he can think, then his personal assessment of his QALY is 1, but under QALY or Euroquol it sure as hell isn't. So at 67, and a low QALY score, should he be denied a more expensive ALS drug?





Brain -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:34:46 PM)

U.S. debate reminds us our medicare is worth it
André Picard

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/us-debate-reminds-us-our-medicare-is-worth-it/article1235958/

Montreal — From Thursday's Globe and Mail Last updated on Thursday, Jul. 30, 2009 07:23AM EDT

Shona Holmes has become a central figure in the bitter debate about U.S. health-care reform.

The Waterdown, Ont., woman is featured in a TV ad telling her tale of horror – how she had a life-threatening brain tumour but would have had to wait months for treatment. So Ms. Holmes remortgaged her home and flew to the Mayo Clinic in Arizona for treatment, paying $97,000 cash for her care.

“Now, Washington wants to bring Canadian-style health care to the U.S.,” the narrator says gravely in the ad, paid for by Patients United Now, an offshoot of the Americans for Prosperity Foundation, a conservative group that promotes less government and lower taxes.
Ms. Holmes has also recounted her nightmare story in countless media interviews, warning that “free” Canadian health care comes at a heavy price – lack of access – and lamenting her inability to buy private insurance to get quicker care.

“My agenda, if I have one, is to tell them [Americans], be careful what you wish for,” Ms. Holmes told The Washington Times.

Discussions surrounding the provision of health care always elicit strong emotions and outbursts of rhetoric, and Ms. Holmes's case is no exception.

She is, of course, entitled to bash medicare and promote the idea of private health-care insurance both at home and abroad. That is the beauty of free speech. (And, to be fair,

Ms. Holmes has always praised the quality of care in Canada; her issue is access and timeliness.)

But a few important details are missing from the “commercial” version of this socialized-medicine-kills tale.

Ms. Holmes did not have a deadly brain tumour, she had a benign Rathkes cleft cyst. Yes, she had vision loss, but it was temporary and reversible. This is not to suggest what she went through was not awful and frightening, but it was not life-threatening.

Initially, Ms. Holmes said she had a six-month wait to see a specialist. Later, she amended that to three months. Canadian hospitals and physicians won't say how long the wait was nor comment on the gravity of her condition because of privacy rules.

For the sake of argument, let's acknowledge that the wait to see specialists like neurologists can be long. It's a problem that needs to be fixed, and the situation is already better now than it was in 2005, when Ms. Holmes had her health problems.

The reality is that, in Canada, we “ration” care. Under our state-financed insurance program, we try to provide universal care efficiently and cost-effectively. We make choices. Getting the balance perfectly right is difficult.

The United States, by contrast, has over-capacity. That is one of the principal reasons that, per capita, care costs about 50 per cent more there than in Canada.

Money buys you access, and lack of money denies you care. In Canada, we have a not-always-happy medium: Universal access with sometimes frustrating waits.

So what happens when a patient feels they are waiting too long for care? Ms. Holmes had a “gut feeling” that her life was in danger and made a radical choice to pay out-of-pocket for immediate care in the United States rather than wait for “free” (read: tax-financed) care in Canada.

Now, she wants to be reimbursed by the Ontario Health Insurance Program. She is also a party to a lawsuit against the Ontario government arguing that a “government-run monopolistic” health system that prohibits the sale of private insurance for medically necessary care is unconstitutional. (The case, very similar to the Chaoulli case in Quebec, is backed by the Canadian Constitution Foundation. It is still before the courts.)

There are complex legal issues here and competing rights that the court will need to balance. But what insurance program, private or public, would ever allow clients to determine their own treatment and reimburse them without question?

In the discussion flowing from Ms. Holmes's ad, it has been noted often that some 45 million Americans do not have health insurance. For them, the right to buy private insurance is moot because they cannot afford it and the Canadian-style system looks pretty appealing. But that is largely beside the point here.

Ms. Holmes is insured – albeit by a state-financed plan. The question is: Can insurers (and providers) delay and deny care, and can they limit and deny coverage?

Of course they can, and they do so all the time. In the United States, health insurance is expensive and it is often tied to employment. Even those with good insurance see their claims denied because of “pre-existing medical conditions,” insurers' attempts to hold down “medical losses” (the industry term for paying for care), and caps on total payouts.

Ironically, for all her lauding of private insurance, someone like Ms. Holmes would find it virtually impossible to buy insurance, given her medical history.

The infamous ad claims that Canadians have long waits and are denied all manner of care because the “government says patients aren't worth it.”

On the contrary, medicare – universal state-financed health insurance – means everyone is worthy of care and entitled to care.

If nothing else, Ms. Holmes' foray into the U.S. health-care debate should remind us of how medicare, despite some shortcomings, is worth it.

Americans can only dream of having such a system to bemoan.











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7/30/2009 11:27:50 AM#
Well done. M. Picard. I couldn't have said it better. The only thing I would like to ad is a suggestion to all those folks in Canada who blog and twitter that they should bombard America with the beauty of our system, the simple fact that people are cared for when they are sick without having to wonder whether they can pay or not.

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7/30/2009 11:24:24 AM#
Does anyone know how this two tier system works in France?

I was told that you go to your doctor pay for the visit, and then get the money back from the gov. Is that true? How about hospital stays, surgerys, outpatient procedures?

It seems to me that is the government (all taxpayers actually) who foots the bill in France too. The difference being that you pay out of your pocket and file for reimbursement. How is that different than what we have? The only difference is the money does not change hands twice in our case. But doctor's office is still a private business, as is the medical tests lab.

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7/30/2009 11:17:55 AM#
All systems are imperfect, but some are more imperfect than others. To get a good measure of the merits of the Canadian versus US health insurance systems, all you need do is ask one question: how many people have been driven by medical expenses into personal bankruptcy in the US and in Canada? In the US it can happen even when you think you are covered by private insurance. Has anyone heard of such a thing in Canada, the UK, France, Germany.....?

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7/30/2009 11:14:11 AM#
Does anyone care about what Ms. Holmes says?

She appears on messages paid by right wing interest groups, doesn't that make her a bit biased before she even opens her mouth?

Fraser Institute has been feeding us stories about lack of access and lack of proper care for....years. Good thing they are only a think tank and not policy makers (yet).

I don't think anyone plans to bring canadian style healthcare in US, but if they would I am sure they could easily find a poster boy/girl like Ms. Holmes to promote their interests.

As for Ms. Holmes bashing her country...I guess she's free to do that. What is sad is the fact that I think she does it not by her own conviction, but because she was asked (maybe paid) to do so.

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Mr Smith 7/30/2009 11:13:49 AM#
Randy:

Ah the old private health care makes us evil and money grows on trees argument, I stand corrected.

Oh wait, all the best ranked medical systems in the world are two tier and money does not in fact grow on trees.

I am sure you have very good reasons for your strong opinions but since you have no knowledge to refute my points with please do some research. The demographics of our country mean that in the near future a huge percentage of our population is going to retire greatly reducing payment into our coffers and greatly increasing payments out. This will strain all parts of government and cuts will have to be made. This is without even talking about how well most industries become more efficient (read cheaper) over time the healthcare industry actually becomes more expensive. I am not advocating that we should remove free access to healthcare for all in fact I am discussing how we can continue to afford it. If you don't want to lose CPP EI or maybe even universal care itself you might consider taking a realistic long range view point now rather then keeping your head up there in the clouds. I am sure you and your friends have a great time discussing how evil us realists are though.

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Lorr47 -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:41:45 PM)

quote:

Lets hope no one other than a patient/family and doctor continue to make those decisions.


Your statement assumes a fact not in evidence, to wit: that a patient/family and doctor currently have the right to make those decisions.

I would rather have someone in government allow me medical care than some bureaucrat in an insurance company deny me care based on his profit assessment .




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