RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System?

RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 2:43:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl FR~ Here is what gets me. Two insurance companies may very well go under because they lost their Tricare contracts. which should be quite telling about the profitability of a single payer system. one covers approximately 9 million people.. and the bid pays around 21 billion dollars. and most people LOVE the system. It must be worth money, the companies are BIDDING. so dont try and tell me its NOT profitable. My point that you are missing is that Tricare isnt "single payer" any more than my company's buying an Aetna policy is "single payer" because that is the only insurance company we use. The DoD is just an employer that buys services and insurance from providers. (In fact I believe Tricare uses different insurers in different geographical areas, so it isnt even "Single Payer" within its own structure. ) "Single Payer" in health care discussions refers to Single Payer NATIONALLY. They are totally different. My employees are in a "single payer" system now...if thats your standard, then Im all for "single payer"...just dont let the government be or choose the payer.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 3:02:16 PM)
No, its as close as we got... and its still profitable. there are three districts, each with a seperate manager. they still must follow Tricare rules, which are far, far different from their own.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:02:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl No, its as close as we got... and its still profitable. there are three districts, each with a seperate manager. they still must follow Tricare rules, which are far, far different from their own. Its about as close as Earth (terra firma) is to Neptune (a ball of gas). Same solar system and thats about it.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:05:06 PM)
So much for open dialogue and transparency: ""Nobody is talking about some government takeover of health care. I'm tired of hearing that," Obama said in Raleigh, N.C., on Thursday. But Scheiner says that nobody has seen the details of that option, making it a hard sell for the president. "We don't even fully know what the public option is going to be. If the public option is too good, patients who are sick will flock to it, and I'm not sure it will be able to support itself." Scheiner almost had a chance to confront the president with his concerns. He was invited to a recent televised town hall meeting with Obama, but he says he was dropped from the program." Wonder why his own doctor was dropped from the program.

Politesub53 -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:11:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 As for insurance, are you trying to say there is no upper limit on policies, because that is laughable. A quick internet search shows that some medical conditions are not covered. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14235415 Nope, I didnt say that. I see, so you are happy to point out single payer systems use cost controls, but not that insurance companies do. Thats without even mentioning your bogus claim about knee replacements in the UK.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:17:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 As for insurance, are you trying to say there is no upper limit on policies, because that is laughable. A quick internet search shows that some medical conditions are not covered. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14235415 Nope, I didnt say that. I see, so you are happy to point out single payer systems use cost controls, but not that insurance companies do. Thats without even mentioning your bogus claim about knee replacements in the UK. Bullshit, I very clearly said insurance companies had cost controls, and then pointed out that one of those controls is widely misunderstood. And I don't believe that no one has been denied a joint replacement as a result of Cost/QALY.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:23:52 PM)
quote: "Nobody is talking about some government takeover of health care," Obama told a packed gymnasium at Broughton High School. "I'm tired of hearing that. I have been as clear as I can be. Under the reform I've proposed, if you like your doctor, you keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you keep your health care plan. These folks need to stop scaring everybody." Obama spoke for about an hour at what was billed as a town hall before a friendly audience of mainly supporters. About a third of his talk was a defense of his stimulus program, a third a defense of his health care plan, and a third questions from the audience. The president took about a half dozen questions from audience members on topics such as family practice doctors, prescription drug prices and insurance costs for average Americans. The talk was a hit with Willis Linder, 83, a retired New York City policeman living in Cary, who was glad to hear that the Obama plan would not effect his Medicare. "I was concerned about it," Linder said. Obama was greeted with picketers at several locations near the school and along the motorcade route downtown. They held signs with slogans such as "ObamaCare Wrong for NC, Wrong for The USA" and "Freedom Isn't Free, Neither Is Obamacare." http://www.truthout.org/072909R quote: At a stop in Raleigh, located in a southeastern US region that has become a hub for the US pharmaceutical and biotech industries, the president sought to reassure Americans he was not seeking government-run, socialized medicine, as his critics have claimed. "Nobody is talking about some government takeover of healthcare," he said. "These folks need to stop scaring everybody." The US president told an audience of about 2,500: "We have a system today that works well for the insurance industry, but it doesn't always work well for you." However he noted that a vote was still far off. "This bill, even in the best-case scenario, will not be signed -- we won't even vote on it probably until the end of September or the middle of October," he said. Obama reiterated that he wanted reforms that put annual caps on how much patients can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses, would require insurers to cover routine screenings and other preventive care and would prevent providers from refusing coverage because of pre-existing conditions. He also wants to prohibit insurers from "watering down" or cutting off coverage to those who fall ill. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090729/usa/health_us_politics?printer=1

Politesub53 -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:37:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy And I don't believe that no one has been denied a joint replacement as a result of Cost/QALY. Believe what you like, but your a long way from here and I am not. You made the claim, yet cant back it up, yet again.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:41:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy And I don't believe that no one has been denied a joint replacement as a result of Cost/QALY. Believe what you like, but your a long way from here and I am not. You made the claim, yet cant back it up, yet again. It was an off the cuff example, not a "claim". Respond to the substance of cost/QALY if you are capable of it. and while your at it show me some official NICE policy that service cannot be denied for cost/QALY issues, because that is the ONLY way it hasnt happened. Of course we know what your reply will be, and it will be anything but responsive to the actual issues being discussed by those with the capacity to do it.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:41:41 PM)
willbe is good at half truths and inventing lies, manipulating, or attempting too, the truth to suit his own purpose.

Slavehandsome -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:50:23 PM)
Let's face it, the industry wrote this legislation, just like most bills. This is not about cutting medical costs, this is about making insurance mandatory, just like those insurance corporations' automotive divisions have done. Government-run medical care has already been in place, its called Medicare.

Politesub53 -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 4:56:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy It was an off the cuff example, not a "claim". Respond to the substance of cost/QALY if you are capable of it. and while your at it show me some official NICE policy that service cannot be denied for cost/QALY issues, because that is the ONLY way it hasnt happened. Of course we know what your reply will be, and it will be anything but responsive to the actual issues being discussed by those with the capacity to do it. quote: Original: ME. You wont be able to find anyone in the UK denied a knee replacement due to age. Usually expensive trug treatments are denied by the use of a qaly when there is cheaper treatment available. Chemotherapy is used instead of expensive drugs, for example. As for insurance, are you trying to say there is no upper limit on policies, because that is laughable. A quick internet search shows that some medical conditions are not covered. Ironically I mentioned the UK does use qaly`s in the first paragraph, right above the paragraph you quoted yourself. Don`t ask me how you missed it. Your bogus "example" was scaremongering, so when its disproved it`s suddenly "off the cuff" nice trick but it wont wash. For what its worth the government health committee have just slammed the use of qalys and the whole issue is being looked into.

cadenas -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 5:02:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Id like to interject a question here.... why are there such a large number of people in the US not paying any taxes? 45%? thats bloody enormous Mostly because their incomes are either too low or too high. The tax system is set up so that the middle class pays far more taxes than the truly wealthy. Warren Buffet - the second richest man in the world after Bill Gates, and a very sensible man - complained about it recently. He is worth $62 billion according to Forbes, but only pays taxes at a rate half that of his receptionist - and then only on $42 million of his income. I'm sure he could spend a few thousand dollars on tax advisor fees to shelter those $42 million as well if he really wanted to.

cadenas -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 5:24:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife But, the government would know your health history if we actually put health records into databases, and that seems to be scary for some, though I've yet to understand the reasoning. Five major problems with it. Actually, all of the problems are with human nature, and therefore inherently unfixable. 1) Identity theft. That's already happening with the incomplete electronic medical record keeping. If you think that the Social Security Number is problematic in that respect, you ain't seen nothing yet. 2) Patriot Act. Need I say more? 3) Errors. Correcting errors in paper records is bad enough, but at least the impact would be limited. Correcting records in a centralized database is a nightmare. The Social Security Administration is said to have around 17 million erroneous records in their database - which is an amazingly accurate database. An electronic health record system would be even more error prone because so many people, doctors, nurses, patients themselves, would all have access to it. And if a patient is allergic to aspirin, and the electronic record said "allergic to acetaminophen" because somebody mistyped it or misunderstood it, maybe because of an accent, an error can be deadly. At least paper records are automatically re-verified every time a doctor collects it from the patient, and are assumed to be incomplete. We already have that problem with Credit Reporting Agencies - fortunately, you can usually fix your credit report BEFORE you die from it. 4) According to a recent study, it actually increases the amount of medical errors in hospitals. The problem appears to be the very reputation that electronic charts would "improve recordkeeping." As a result, doctors and nurses are less likely to communicate with each other and double-check, and more likely to blindly trust an electronic record than a paper record - even though it is just as easy to write a wrong dosage on a keyboard as with a pen. 5) With private health insurance, it can make the current problems even worse; it gives health insurance companies access to even more information to base denials and premium increases on. Personally, for the time being I stick with my doctor in part because so far, he's still using paper records.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 5:48:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl willbe is good at half truths and inventing lies, manipulating, or attempting too, the truth to suit his own purpose. Funny that no one has been able to show that without resorting to asinine levels of nitpicking.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 5:50:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy It was an off the cuff example, not a "claim". Respond to the substance of cost/QALY if you are capable of it. and while your at it show me some official NICE policy that service cannot be denied for cost/QALY issues, because that is the ONLY way it hasnt happened. Of course we know what your reply will be, and it will be anything but responsive to the actual issues being discussed by those with the capacity to do it. quote: Original: ME. You wont be able to find anyone in the UK denied a knee replacement due to age. Usually expensive trug treatments are denied by the use of a qaly when there is cheaper treatment available. Chemotherapy is used instead of expensive drugs, for example. As for insurance, are you trying to say there is no upper limit on policies, because that is laughable. A quick internet search shows that some medical conditions are not covered. Ironically I mentioned the UK does use qaly`s in the first paragraph, right above the paragraph you quoted yourself. Don`t ask me how you missed it. Your bogus "example" was scaremongering, so when its disproved it`s suddenly "off the cuff" nice trick but it wont wash. For what its worth the government health committee have just slammed the use of qalys and the whole issue is being looked into. I didnt ask you to acknowledge that Cost/QALY is used, I asked you to contribute something meaningful to the discussion about their ethics/efficacy/implementation. If youve got nothing to say, say nothing.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 5:50:36 PM)
I did, you posted a snippet of what Obama said in NC. i included much more information, not designed to manipulate people into thinking its worse than it really is... nor as you tried to show, that he doesnt have any backing.. which he does.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 5:53:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cadenas quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Id like to interject a question here.... why are there such a large number of people in the US not paying any taxes? 45%? thats bloody enormous Mostly because their incomes are either too low or too high. The tax system is set up so that the middle class pays far more taxes than the truly wealthy. Warren Buffet - the second richest man in the world after Bill Gates, and a very sensible man - complained about it recently. He is worth $62 billion according to Forbes, but only pays taxes at a rate half that of his receptionist - and then only on $42 million of his income. I'm sure he could spend a few thousand dollars on tax advisor fees to shelter those $42 million as well if he really wanted to. And still the top x% of earners pay 80% of all taxes? Warren Buffett also said "Let them invest and get rich, and then tax the hell out of them". You wonder how someone who made so much money could say something so stupid.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 5:55:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I did, you posted a snippet of what Obama said in NC. i included much more information, not designed to manipulate people into thinking its worse than it really is... nor as you tried to show, that he doesnt have any backing.. which he does. That isnt even close to what I tried to show, or even imply. What I said, and what should have been clear from the introductory sentence, is not that he doesnt have backing, but that he doesnt want to acknowledge that someone as close to him as his own doctor disagrees with him. And that is exactly what the snippet demonstrates. Now we can rightfully point to this exchange and say "tazzygirl tries to use misinterpretations of what someone says to discredit them, intentional or not? you be the judge" (The jurys already come in on that issue wrt to RML and DK)

cadenas -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 5:57:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy And hurt the millions of people who work for them and the 10s of millions of people invested in them. It seems that their "socialized medicine" doesn't exactly hurt other countries in this field. One of the leading manufacturer of MRI machines is Siemens, a German company. Germany invented the whole field of antibiotics and Aspirin. The HIV virus was discovered by a Frenchman. The heart transplant came out of South Africa. Most of the computerization in the medical field also came out of Germany (I was involved with one such project myself as a consultant). Germany is also leading in cancer research. quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy So we've destroyed the high end travel industry, socialized banking and the car companies, why not move on and fuck up a another chunk of the economy. Huh? How about a Caribbean cruise STARTING AT $23,938 on the Seabourne Odyssey? Or a transatlantic crossing on the Queen Mary 2 or Queen Elizabeth 2? A $250/day cruise with Silversea Cruises - and that is after a 50% price cut due to the economy. And that really IS a luxury, unlike health care. Socialized banking? Really? Where can I sign up?

Page: << < prev 5 6 [7] 8 9 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.0625