RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System?

RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (Full Version)

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MzMia -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 9:32:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia tazzy, it is funny, when my mom had me a tad over 40 years ago, they kept her in the hospital at least 10 days. Wait a minute.... your profile says your 96. You been puttin' us on? Anyway, your example doesn't prove anything. They probably kept your mother as long as possible because they knew she'd probably want to take you with her when she went home, and they couldn't stand to let such an adorable baby leave. That's how that happened. awwwwwwwwwwwwww, you are so charming. [:D] There are a lot of women on here, that list their ages in the 90's. I had to change it to 96, updating my age yearly was a tad depressing. Being 96 on here, means never updating your age again!

Blaakmaan -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 9:51:06 PM)
Perhaps if the Democratic Party could grow some balls and find some unity...

tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 9:52:59 PM)
dont you think its time we stopped playing "blame the party", grew a set of balls as a nation and get this thing fixed?

Arpig -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 9:55:26 PM)
quote: dont you think its time we stopped playing "blame the party", grew a set of balls as a nation and get this thing fixed? long past time, but I wouldn't advise holding your breath.

popeye1250 -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 10:03:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl dont you think its time we stopped playing "blame the party", grew a set of balls as a nation and get this thing fixed? Tazzy, good luck with that! On the News today they said that Speaker Pelosi doesn't even want to talk about sneaking through provisions for Illegal Aliens getting free healthcare on our dime! And they said she was holding "closed commitee meetings" on that subject too! Gee, do you suppose that Speaker Pelosi didn't get President Obama's memo on "TRANSPARENT GOVERNMENT?" They know that the American People are totally against this and now they're trying to SNEAK it through??? Isn't that called, "Corruption?" These peple are the fuckin' hired help not the management! Now they want to start dictating to us? Man, we got big problems! Closed Committee Meetings!

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 10:04:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan Perhaps if the Democratic Party could grow some balls and find some unity... Find some fucking leadership, is what they need to find. I was kind of hoping that guy we elected president last year might be able to offer some, but apparently I misjudged him. He's turning the whole spectacle into a disgrace, flying around the country exhorting the public to support a health care plan that he can't even answer a single fucking question about. What a circus.

Brain -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 10:35:29 PM)
I don't know what you're talking about. What was asked that he did not answer? Like George bush answered anybody's questions. Even when he did they only put him in front of friendly Republican crowds. Right now, he doesn't have to do much. It's not the right time, he needs to let the Congress come up with an acceptable plan and everybody who's involved with this including Howard Dean who debated with Bill Frist today on Charlie Rose can work it out and after they do that then Obama can stick his nose in it to shape the legislation the way he wants. So what did they ask him that he didn't answer?

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 10:46:52 PM)
"what are the details of this health plan you want us to support?"

Arpig -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 11:04:44 PM)
quote: Like George bush answered anybody's questions. Even when he did they only put him in front of friendly Republican crowds. Relevance??? Really guys, whenever you pull this sort of thing you just make yourself look foolish. What does George Bush's record of answering questions have to do with Obama answering questions or not?

Brain -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 11:50:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda "what are the details of this health plan you want us to support?" Watch this show, Charlie Rose on PBS and Howard Dean will answer your question. Healthcare Reform with Dr. Howard Dean and Dr. Bill Frist http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/10524

Brain -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/30/2009 11:53:18 PM)
It has to do with hypocrisy and double standards. Obviously Obama answers questions and George Bush never did for the most part. When George Bush answered a question usually he was lying.

Politesub53 -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/31/2009 2:40:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy I didnt ask you to acknowledge that Cost/QALY is used, I asked you to contribute something meaningful to the discussion about their ethics/efficacy/implementation. If youve got nothing to say, say nothing. Ive told you what they are used for once. Ive explained your example was bogus, and why. Just to humour you though, I feel the use of cost analysis/qaly to determine what drugs/treatments are cost effective is reasonable. Age, despite your claim, isnt a barrier to treatment, as shown by the following NHS Standard. Please note is says "On clinical need ALONE" If you have proof saying otherwise I would like to see it. "NHS services will be provided, regardless of age, on the basis of clinical need alone. Social care services will not use age in their eligibility criteria or policies, to restrict access to available services."

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/31/2009 2:42:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Nope. And since it doesnt happen, shouldnt be a concern. And if you really believe that insurance companies have "incentives to deny legitimate payments", then you don't understand the insurance business...or any other business for that matter. OK, then why have some states felt it necessary to pass laws prohibiting the practice? I suppose we are expected to take your word over all those below? http://www.statesurge.com/bills/462492-sb09-103-colorado http://www.abourezklaw.com/bfl-13.html http://www.housedems.com/videos/simpson-wrongful-denial-pc http://www.atlanet.org/resources/InsuranceTactics.pdf http://law-wi.blogspot.com/search?q=farmers http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0071.htm http://www.kentuckyinjuryattorneyblog.com/cgi-bin/mt-search.cgi?search=employee+incentive&IncludeBlogs=29&search= http://www.farmersinsurancegroupsucks.com/blog/2008/01/farmers-insurance-urged-employees-to.html I think that should establish that such practices exist, despite your pronouncement from on high to the contrary. Because something exists doesnt mean it is common.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/31/2009 2:44:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Again, overpayments are far more frequent then underpayments in the hundreds of claim audits as the office of my former employer I worked out of showed. Convenient, proof positive that cannot actually be cross-checked. Sorry willbuer, but I may accept such an assertion from some posters, not from you, you have a habit of stating "facts" without providing any back-up. And when those "facts" are checked they turn out to be incorrect most of the time. No fact has ever been proven to be incorrect. And some of us actually have experience in what we're talking about. Believe it or not, not everything can conveniently be found in a link somewhere. I personally dont give a rats ass what you "accept" from me or not. Feel free to rely on people who's sole knowledge of a topic comes from google.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/31/2009 2:45:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: And therefore I take it that you believe the government should not have that power also. It doesn't have to, even under a universal government run single=payer system. You keep saying that it will happen, but you ignore the various examples around the world where it doesn't happen. I am talking about the bill. And I have seen no example of a UHC system where it doesnt happen to some extent. It has to to extract any meaningful cost savings.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/31/2009 2:47:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: What is Steven Hawkings' QALY? I think he would tell you that as long as he can think, then his personal assessment of his QALY is 1, but under QALY or Euroquol it sure as hell isn't. So at 67, and a low QALY score, should he be denied a more expensive ALS drug? Interesting choice of example. Hawking lives in England, and his health care is through the dreaded NHS, which according to you doesn't treat people like him. I specifically chose Hawkings BECAUSE he lives in England, and I see youre back to lying about what someone said again. Nowhere did I say that people like him arent treated.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/31/2009 2:51:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy I didnt ask you to acknowledge that Cost/QALY is used, I asked you to contribute something meaningful to the discussion about their ethics/efficacy/implementation. If youve got nothing to say, say nothing. Ive told you what they are used for once. Ive explained your example was bogus, and why. Just to humour you though, I feel the use of cost analysis/qaly to determine what drugs/treatments are cost effective is reasonable. Age, despite your claim, isnt a barrier to treatment, as shown by the following NHS Standard. Please note is says "On clinical need ALONE" If you have proof saying otherwise I would like to see it. "NHS services will be provided, regardless of age, on the basis of clinical need alone. Social care services will not use age in their eligibility criteria or policies, to restrict access to available services." LMAO. You do understand that cost/QALY, without directly referencing age, incorporates it? When you use QALY you dont need to use age.

Politesub53 -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/31/2009 3:04:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy I didnt ask you to acknowledge that Cost/QALY is used, I asked you to contribute something meaningful to the discussion about their ethics/efficacy/implementation. If youve got nothing to say, say nothing. Ive told you what they are used for once. Ive explained your example was bogus, and why. Just to humour you though, I feel the use of cost analysis/qaly to determine what drugs/treatments are cost effective is reasonable. Age, despite your claim, isnt a barrier to treatment, as shown by the following NHS Standard. Please note is says "On clinical need ALONE" If you have proof saying otherwise I would like to see it. "NHS services will be provided, regardless of age, on the basis of clinical need alone. Social care services will not use age in their eligibility criteria or policies, to restrict access to available services." LMAO. You do understand that cost/QALY, without directly referencing age, incorporates it? When you use QALY you dont need to use age. You used age in your example, forgive me for following your lead. I dont suppose you could stop lmao at me and actually back up your claims ?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/31/2009 3:22:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy I didnt ask you to acknowledge that Cost/QALY is used, I asked you to contribute something meaningful to the discussion about their ethics/efficacy/implementation. If youve got nothing to say, say nothing. Ive told you what they are used for once. Ive explained your example was bogus, and why. Just to humour you though, I feel the use of cost analysis/qaly to determine what drugs/treatments are cost effective is reasonable. Age, despite your claim, isnt a barrier to treatment, as shown by the following NHS Standard. Please note is says "On clinical need ALONE" If you have proof saying otherwise I would like to see it. "NHS services will be provided, regardless of age, on the basis of clinical need alone. Social care services will not use age in their eligibility criteria or policies, to restrict access to available services." LMAO. You do understand that cost/QALY, without directly referencing age, incorporates it? When you use QALY you dont need to use age. You used age in your example, forgive me for following your lead. I dont suppose you could stop lmao at me and actually back up your claims ? Nowhere in my example did I use age, so you can apologize for yet another lie about what I said. However that is irrelevant to your "NHS policy post". The point is that once you have cost/QALY as a criterion, you no longer need to mention age as a criterion. The extension of years of life available from a procedure is obviously highly dependent on age. US non-discrimination law recognizes that you don't have to directly reference someones age in a policy for that to be the result of a policy, thus requiring demonstration that a criterion is not simply a proxy for age. For the policy you posted to have any teeth whatsover with regard to age it would need to specify "age or any other criterion which directly or indirectly incorporates age". Goodbye cost/QALY.

Politesub53 -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/31/2009 4:23:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Nowhere in my example did I use age, so you can apologize for yet another lie about what I said. However that is irrelevant to your "NHS policy post". The point is that once you have cost/QALY as a criterion, you no longer need to mention age as a criterion. The extension of years of life available from a procedure is obviously highly dependent on age. US non-discrimination law recognizes that you don't have to directly reference someones age in a policy for that to be the result of a policy, thus requiring demonstration that a criterion is not simply a proxy for age. For the policy you posted to have any teeth whatsover with regard to age it would need to specify "age or any other criterion which directly or indirectly incorporates age". Goodbye cost/QALY. quote: Yours. If youre expected to live 40 more years, no problem, if youre expected to live 5 more years, problem. Seems like a clear reference to age to me. Why are you mentioning a US law ? We were talking about the NHS and your comments on it, I added a remark about NHS policy ( Nice is part of the NHS btw ) It clearly states age cant be used as a reason to disqualify people from treatment. Qaly is used to assess new drugs, not to assess treatment itself, yet again you fail to show me otherwise but go off on a tangent. If the new drugs are proved not to be cost effective, old treatments are implemented instead. IE, people get treatment of some kind. Edited to fix quotes

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