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Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 8:20:06 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Below is an article from Time Magazine from 1971. It's an interesting look on our history. As many of you know, I am a big time advocate of prison reform. I make no apologies for this. I have a brother that's an ex-con (he did a year and half). I have a 2nd cousin doing a life term in Georgia for murder (she was on 48 hours CBS). I am sometimes ashamed of it, but there it is. I visit with my best friend doing time in a minimum security joint for check fraud.

I admittedly used to be a rather hardcore conservative about prisoners. I didn't think they deserved any mercy what so ever. I was a vehemenent proponent of the death penalty. I was for retribution and punishment. I wanted criminals to PAY fo their sins, and I wanted them to beg for mercy. I will tell you the story. It's an old article, but it still rings true to me. I am an advocate of our nation's prisoners. I forgive people for screwing up. Most of us were taught to do that. We seem to forget it when we get older.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,942467,00.html

I spent a little time getting to know some of these folks via visits with my brother, my cousin, and my friend. My brother is a recovering drug addict. He's been clean for 5 years. I'm proud of him. I love him. I think prison was a good thing for him. It cleaned him up. I talked/talk to him every week by phone or mail. I see him every few days now. He's my brother, despite what he's done.

My friend is an unfortunate woman. Her mother got taken to prison when she was 12. Her stepfather raped her until the state took her away to live with her aunt and uncle. Her aunt and uncle didn't want her. She survived and she had 3 kids of her own. The shitbag fathers of her kids never had anything to do with them. In 2006, she got laid off from her job. She was 37; it was the first time it ever happened to her. She wrote a series of bad checks, thinking she could pay them back. She couldn't. She got sentenced to 4 years probation. She left the state shortly after to find a better job in Texas. She was arrested and sentenced to 2 years confinement. Her 15 year old son was recently arrested for stealing a gun from his aunt. He got put into foster care. I try to talk to him once a week. I visit her every Saturday that I am able, and I write her at least once a week. She's my friend, and she always will be. She deserves a break. I offered to pay off her 1200 dollar debt, and the court refused. Well fuck them. She didn't deserve that.

My 2nd cousin allegedly killed her lover over real estate. She got a life sentence. My father and I built the dummy that was used in a demonstration in her trial. We've hired private investagators. She swears she didn't do it. We stand by her, despite the doubts.

I say this all about family and friends. You know what? They deserved punishment. They broke the law. But I expect humane and equal punishment for them. I don't see that. I see extreme disparities in the law. I see rich people getting away with things that would never happen with the poor. I see cops committing crimes that you and I would go to jail for. I see a return to the punitive mindset in corrections we tried to get away from. We haven't changed ladies and gentleman, we've gotten worse.

I stand by all the people incarcerated in our nation's prisons. I am absolutely appalled that we are the nation with the largest prison population on Earth. It sickens me; it really does. Over 70% of our population claim to be Christians, but they don't seem to understand the absolute, main tenet of Christianity......FORGIVENESS.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 7/29/2009 8:41:55 PM >
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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 8:41:49 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Below is an article from Time Magazine from 1971. It's an interesting look on our history. As many of you know, I am a big time advocate of prison reform. I make no apologies for this. I have a brother that's an ex-con (he did a year and half). I have a 2nd cousin doing a life term in Georgia for murder (she was on 48 hours CBS). I am sometimes ashamed of it, but there it is. I visit with my best friend doing time in a minimum security joint for check fraud. I admittedly used to be rather hardcore conservative about prisoners. I didn't think they deserved any mercy what so ever. I was a vehemenent proponent of the death penalty. It's an old article, but it still rings true to me. I am an advocate of our nation's prisoners. I forgive people for screwing up. Most of us were taught to do that. We seem to forget it when we get older.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,942467,00.html

I spent a little time getting to know some of these folks via visits with my brother, my cousin, and my friend. My brother is a recovering drug addict. He's been clean for 5 years. I'm proud of him. I love him. I think prison was a good thing for him. It cleaned him up. I talked to him every week by phnne or mail. I see him every few days now. He's my brother, despite what he's done.

My friend is an unfortunate woman. Her mother got taken to prison when she was 12. Her stepfather raped her until the state took her away to live with her aunt and uncle. Her aunt and uncle didn't want her. She survived and she had 3 kids of her own. The shitbag fathers of her kids never had anything to do with them. In 2006, she got laid off from her job. She was 37; it was the first time it ever happened to her. She wrote a series of bad checks, thinking she could pay them back. She couldn't. She got sentenced to 4 years probation. She left the state shortly after to find a better job in Texas. She was arrested and sentenced to 2 years confinement. Her 15 year old son was recently arrested for stealing a gun from his aunt. He got put into foster care. I try to talk to him once a week. I visit her every Saturday that I am able, and I write her at least once a week. She's my friend, and she always will be.

My 2nd cousin allegedly killed her lover over real estate. She got a life sentence. My father and I built the dummy that was used in a demonstration in her trial. We've hired private investagators. She swears she didn't do it. We stand by her, despite the doubts.

I say this all about family and friends. You know what? They deserved punishment. They broke the law. But I expect humane and equal punishment for them. I don't see that. I see extreme disparities in the law. I see rich people getting away with things that would never happen with the poor. I see cops committing crimes that you and I would go to jail for. I see a return to the punitive mindset in corrections we tried to get away from. We haven't changed ladies and gentleman, we've gotten worse.

I stand by all the people incarcerated in our nation's prisons. I am absolutely appalled that we are the nation with the largest prison population on Earth. It sickens me; it really does. Over 70% of our population claim to be Christians, but they don't seem to understand the absolute, main tenet of Christianity......FORGIVENESS.


Three years ago I shot a man who was holding a gun to a 4year olds head in the hope of getting far enough away to avoid capture. Unfortunatly, I did not kill the bastard. He lived and went to prison, where he still sits to this day.

When I was 24, I killed a man holding a pregnant woman hostage. His 4 accomplices were lucky enough to just get arrested and sent to prison.

Over the years, in the course of my 'career', I have the dubious pleasure of making the decision who should die and who should just go to prison. Honestly...I would rather each and every one that has ever been in my sights...they should have been shot and killed on the spot. It would have saved every taxpayer a bundle over having to keep them in cable tv and steaks in prison.

I can't stand it when someone sits here on their high and mighty horse complaining about how unfair the justice/prison system is.

Tell you what...let's go talk to the families of victims of those in prison and see what they have to say.

Forgiveness?
Fuck that.
They are in prison for a reason.
Let them rot there.


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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 8:43:16 PM   
intenze


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Status: offline 		hi Slave boy,
I agree, strangely enough, lol. There are more issues than forgiveness. Prison is a hell hole that makes convicts. It is a place that teaches you how to have a criminal mind. If you were not F****d up when you get there, you are when you leave.  Prisons begat criminals, they do not teach people anything.

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 8:47:51 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

Tell you what...let's go talk to the families of victims of those in prison and see what they have to say.

Forgiveness?
Fuck that.
They are in prison for a reason.
Let them rot there.


I knew this would happen. What do you're experiences have to do with the 3/4 of people locked up for non-violent offences? Seriously, what do they have to do with those folks? I'm not making that number up, by the way. 3/4 or 75% of people incarcerated in the United States are non-violent offenders. They've never killed anyone, raped anyone, molested anyone, etc. Most of them are just petty thieves and addicts. Pickpockets and drunks for the older crowd. Not exactly Jon Gotti on the loose. But yet we still we still stick '
em in there.

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:03:59 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Seriously, explain to me why we have more prisoners than an authoritarian, communist, country like China. China have more than half of the population we do, but they don't have that many folks locked up. Russia doesn't lock up that many folks. The entire EU doesn't have that many prisoners listed. Why do we? We lock up over 2 million. Why do we do that? Explain the benefits to me.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 7/29/2009 9:10:16 PM >

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:10:11 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou



I stand by all the people incarcerated in our nation's prisons. I am absolutely appalled that we are the nation with the largest prison population on Earth. It sickens me; it really does. Over 70% of our population claim to be Christians, but they don't seem to understand the absolute, main tenet of Christianity......FORGIVENESS.


To some people prisons are places to put the filth of society. If you end up there then obviously you are filth. You won't get people to admit it. But it's there. Many only pay lip service to cristianity. They don't actually follow it. kind of like the way some people belong to a gym but never go in. But they claim that gym as their own.

Our society as a whole does not believe in forgiveness. We are zero tolerance on everything. Fuck up once and we'll throw the book at you. How dare you fail.




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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:10:49 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
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Status: offline 		I applaud you for your honesty and for your compassion.  I also agree with you. It is not a popular stance to take. We do not have a forgiving society.  We are a punishing society. Punishment is big business.
I also use to have the attitude that criminals no matter what the back ground deserved to be punished and harshly.
I no longer feel this way.
If you break the law then yes you must accept the consequences. Problem is the consequences are unrealistic,  lacking in fairness and structure.  Our societies lack of concern, compassion and forgiveness have created our over burdened prison system.

You have earned your place in heaven for staying in touch  with your friends 15yr old son. I can only imagine how lost and scared he must feel and how uncertain his life  must seem to be with his mothers incarceration.
Many would feel it extremely difficult to stand by and support a family member accused of  a crime when no one else believes in them. Thank God your cousin has you and  your fathers support.

It  has become too easy to forget about prisoners once they are convicted. Too easy to believe in punishment rather than rehabilitation, to justify not putting in the time or energy to help prisoners and the court system make changes and to insist that fairness be the rule rather than the exception.

Thank you for posting this.

scarlet


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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:11:07 PM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
Three years ago I shot a man who was holding a gun to a 4year olds head in the hope of getting far enough away to avoid capture. Unfortunatly, I did not kill the bastard. He lived and went to prison, where he still sits to this day.

When I was 24, I killed a man holding a pregnant woman hostage. His 4 accomplices were lucky enough to just get arrested and sent to prison.


And unfortunately, because you didn't kill him, you weren't convicted of murder and could go on in your killing spree - and your delusion that you are somehow "making this a better world".

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
Tell you what...let's go talk to the families of victims of those in prison and see what they have to say.


OK. Talk to me, then.

I was the victim of a mentally-ill roommate. She should not have spent a day in prison, but desperately needed treatment for her illness, and probably needed a long-term care facility that knows more about her illness than I do. Keeping her as a roommate would have been actively unsafe. The only reason she ended up in prison was that the state has no viable options and gave neither me nor her an alternative.


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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:21:37 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
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Status: offline 		Edited to clarify that this was a fast-reply to the OP, not to the one it says I replied to.

I'm attempting to stay as far away from this thread as I can get, as my feelings are well-known and in contrast to yours (as you also well know). And, since in the last 5 threads we've both participated we were not only civil....but actually in agreement (did you feel the earthquake up there?) I will try and offer one tidbit of info before I commence to staying 'far away' from this thread....

I just watched a program called "Locked Up Abroad" on the National Geographic channel. It is of course about people who get (duh) locked up abroad.

The most common case they feature is where a person is "duped" into smuggling some type of drug out of a country they went for a 'visit' and they get caught.

In tonight's episode, an Irish woman claims she was duped and had no idea about the cocaine in her luggage while in Ecuador.

I can't yet comment on the 'duping' because I came in at about the 30 minute mark and it's an hour long show. What I can say is that she was 'made' to sign a confession, despite her 22-hour refusal on the grounds she was innocent. She was then held for 10 weeks in a jail where she shared a room not with other women, but with men. At some point during the 10 weeks, she begged for a private shower and was allowed to use the police shower. But this proved not to be a gentlemanly gesture as she was accosted and nearly assaulted by two cops while showering.

After that fun 10 weeks, she was transported to the prison (she hadn't even been sentenced yet, mind you). After TWO YEARS locked in that prison, she learned that her sentence would be 8 years. (They didn't elaborate on whether she got credit for time served.)

Now let's compare her plight to the common plight of a drug smuggler in our system, shall we? Most here can bond out while awaiting trial (much less sentencing)....assuming they or someone they love can afford to get them out of course. Here they have a 'right to a speedy trial,' whereas in Ecuador this woman waited for 2 years....in the prison to find out her 8-year sentence.

It's damned near unheard of for a woman to be locked up with men (transgender issues aside, as that's another topic altogether).

And for a first offense in this country, sure, the punishments can vary person to person, but a 2-year wait for an 8-year sentence would  be highly unlikely. And even if one got 8 years here, they'd most likely get credit for time served.

So, in short (in deference to our many battles on the subject)....is our system perfect? Surely not. No "system" is perfect, there will always be flaws. But when you do compare our system to that of some other countries.....there is simply no comparison.

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 7/29/2009 9:22:26 PM >

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:25:40 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
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Status: offline 		Nice. We certainly need more people like you who advocate murder. What is scary is your self righteous, insane, attitude thinking you have the right because of your job, to decide who lives and who dies. 

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:32:55 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scarlethiney

Nice. We certainly need more people like you who advocate murder. What is scary is your self righteous, insane, attitude thinking you have the right because of your job, to decide who lives and who dies. 


Can I ask you to place yourself in the shoes of the pregnant woman who was being held hostage and then tell us how you feel about what he did?

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 7/29/2009 9:33:04 PM >

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:33:13 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

To some people prisons are places to put the filth of society. If you end up there then obviously you are filth. You won't get people to admit it. But it's there. Many only pay lip service to cristianity. They don't actually follow it. kind of like the way some people belong to a gym but never go in. But they claim that gym as their own.

Our society as a whole does not believe in forgiveness. We are zero tolerance on everything. Fuck up once and we'll throw the book at you. How dare you fail.


Blacksword I get what you're saying. Who among us hasn't been caught? I
d like to know. I stole things. I smoked pot on numeroug occasions. I did acid one. I took pills numerous times ( I never cared about the doctorate or those folks.) I never served as isolation for sub egyptian folk. I was foir the death penalty and now I'm not. Sue me, I changed my mind.

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:33:38 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
They are in prison for a reason.
Let them rot there.

On the day after Brian Dugan finally pled guilty it takes a lot of gall to write something like that.

What reason did Rolando Cruz have for being in prison? Should he have been left to rot in prison?

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:36:16 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
On the day after Brian Dugan finally pled guilty it takes a lot of gall to write something like that.


I just googled that name and found the following. Please take note of the comments section at the bottom.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1691083,brian-dugan-aplogy-nicarico-family-072909.article


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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:41:54 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
On the day after Brian Dugan finally pled guilty it takes a lot of gall to write something like that.


I just googled that name and found the following. Please take note of the comments section at the bottom.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1691083,brian-dugan-aplogy-nicarico-family-072909.article


I'm sorry I was unclear. I feel no sympathy for Dugan. My sympathy extends to the two innocent men convicted and sentenced to death, twice each, for the crime Dugan committed. Rolando Cruz and Alejandro Hernandez had more than a decade of their lives stolen by teh justice system run amok. Did they deserve to be there? Should they have been left to rot?

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:45:49 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I'm sorry I was unclear. I feel no sympathy for Dugan. My sympathy extends to the two innocent men convicted and sentenced to death, twice each, for the crime Dugan committed. Rolando Cruz and Alejandro Hernandez had more than a decade of their lives stolen by teh justice system run amok. Did they deserve to be there? Should they have been left to rot?


I get what you're saying. And yes, what happened to those two was fucked up. But there are many things in this world that are 'fucked up.' While it blows that they had to go through that, and while it is an example of a flawed system....'every' system has flaws. All we can do is try and fix those flaws and make the system better. But I can't say I support a notion such as abolishing the death penalty because the system that uses it is flawed. I just hope that someone somewhere is working to fix those flaws (and apparently, based on that story...there are people out there working for that very goal).


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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:48:41 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

And unfortunately, because you didn't kill him, you weren't convicted of murder and could go on in your killing spree - and your delusion that you are somehow "making this a better world".

Convicted of murder for killing someone holding a gun to a 4 year old's head? Unlikely. Also, I believe "spree" is sort of a multiple thing, and the term "killing spree" refers to mass murder, not the justifiable shooting of someone threatening another's life with a deadly weapon. All that said, please read what is posted. IM killed a man when she was 24, the other was 3 years ago. As she is in her 40s, what you wrote makes little sense.

ETA- Chances are good that both the 4 year old and the pregnant lady feel that IM made their world a bit better.



< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 7/29/2009 9:49:57 PM >

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:49:31 PM   
scarlethiney


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: scarlethiney

Nice. We certainly need more people like you who advocate murder. What is scary is your self righteous, insane, attitude thinking you have the right because of your job, to decide who lives and who dies. 


Can I ask you to place yourself in the shoes of the pregnant woman who was being held hostage and then tell us how you feel about what he did?



Sure, you can ask me and I would be willing to bet that I feel "almost" exactly as you do.  Just because I don't believe the prison system fair or believe in the death penalty does NOT mean I don't think there are extreme circumstances where force needs to be used,  it also doesn't mean that I don't think murders shouldn't spend life in prison.
I do not however feel that people in the position of enforcing the law should be "gleeful" about killing others and brag about it.
Next question?


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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 9:58:52 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I'm sorry I was unclear. I feel no sympathy for Dugan. My sympathy extends to the two innocent men convicted and sentenced to death, twice each, for the crime Dugan committed. Rolando Cruz and Alejandro Hernandez had more than a decade of their lives stolen by teh justice system run amok. Did they deserve to be there? Should they have been left to rot?


I get what you're saying. And yes, what happened to those two was fucked up. But there are many things in this world that are 'fucked up.' While it blows that they had to go through that, and while it is an example of a flawed system....'every' system has flaws. All we can do is try and fix those flaws and make the system better. But I can't say I support a notion such as abolishing the death penalty because the system that uses it is flawed. I just hope that someone somewhere is working to fix those flaws (and apparently, based on that story...there are people out there working for that very goal).


You misunderstand the point I was making.

Irishmyst wrote:
quote:

They are in prison for a reason.
Let them rot there.

To which my reply was aimed
Cruz and Hernandez certainly weren't in prison for a reason and certainly should not have been left to rot.

Before such a mindset is even remotely reasonable we have to ensure that innocent people aren't the ones being left to rot.

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RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. - 7/29/2009 10:11:32 PM   
Termyn8or


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Of course I have a different slany on this. Now I will attempt not to be hated by all.

Consequences teach. I would go for a very harsh prison system - but with much shorter sentences. What people miss is that the passage of time is important. I have known plenty of people who have been in, they would speak of not knowing what kind of cars were around and things like that. In other words I don't think we should spend all that much time. Make it bad and fast, while the offender might still have a chance to pick up some of the pieces of his life and move forward. Today you are dropping them into a failed economy with basically nothing. For a non-violent offender I think this is not right.

Then there are classes of crimes, and many decisions to make. How many times do you have to catch someone thieving to lock them up ? Murderers and rapists are a complete aside for me, just execdute them, mentally ill or not. Harsh but it works. A mentally ill person can usually understand that there is a bus coming down the street so don't jump out in front of it or you might die. If they can understand that they can understand that they should not take an axe to their Mother's head. Things like that.

There is a gray area. Some crimes simply do not warrant execution, but they should not be excused. However I fully agree that their treatment should differ from the really bad ones. But how do you teach morality to an adult ? Like stealing or shoplifting. You can put them on probation which doesn't work, or you can lock them up where they will probably learn new techniques and figure out how they got caught, and they emerge ready to do it again the first day.

I really hate to say this, but to REALLY rehabilitate someone it would require very strict supervision along with a great degree of control over their environment. The resources needed simply are not there. To come even close in this country, we would have to spend tenfold what we spend on the entire penal system.

So reality limits our options. Well when it comes to the people who need help. You can teach moraliy. When someone steals one of your cigarettes smack them upside the head HARD. Consequences teach. That kid in Singapore who committed vandalism, cane him. If they make too much of a stink about it say "OK, we'll just lock him up for a year then". Personally I would take the caning. Being in a foreign prison ? Shut the fuck up, take your ass whipping and go home. If you come back don't - oh, nevermind, you should remember not to do it on your own now. Took how long, half an hour ?

I really think some form of non-harmful actual punishment would be better than taking a slice of someone's time on Earth. Time is the one thing that can't be replaced. Perhaps incarceration would work for offenders who commit crimes to support their habit. Just make sure they don't get the shit in there. They need that time to get really straight, then perhaps some progress can be made. But other than that, make it short and sweet. I think it would be effective and quite a benefit to society.

Call this thinking archaic if you want, but whether it worked in the past or not we know sure as hell that what we are doing now is not working. It's not my call, and I don't say I have all the answers, but I am starting to think that almost any change would be an improvement.

T

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 20
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