RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 9:29:21 AM)
FR: Updated info: The clip about Carnahan being heckled wasn't even from this meeting, but from an earlier meeting (a couple of good videos from that one too). Here is another first person account of inside the "Aging" town hall where all the excitement did occur: Russ Carnahan Aging in America Town Hall - South St. Louis County : ACORN, SEIU, Clean Energy for America and other St Louis union members were there. My guess is the crowd was about 50/50. Their side continually “sssshhhhhed” us. Our side stood often and turned their backs to the podium. After the pledge of allegiance (which we said with more pride) Russ took plenty of time to intro his organizers and staff and mention all of the Democrat elected officials present. We had to shout and point to Republican State Rep Walt Bivins to get him acknowledged by the congressman. There was a large panel of presenters telling us how to get into the government system that currently assists the elderly. Russ sat at the end of the panel table with that same old blank look on his face. The emcee reminded us often to show respect and if we weren’t interested we could leave. That really offended me – I pay property taxes in that school district unlike most of the democrat thugs they shipped in. ... When the panelists finally finished – Russ got up and huddled with a few police and plain clothes security guys. The emcee said “okay we will now take questions”. And she began to read the first pre-written question. It was a three parter of softballs with the third part saying something like “Thank you Rep Carnahan for all of your hard work…” I couldn’t hear the rest over the boos of the crowd. Russ stepped to the podium to answer the question over the shouting – and then – then – then – he looked at his watch…. And then announced he would answer this question but then he had an interview downtown to get to……. If anyone wanted to stay the panel would be happy to answer more questions…. CARNAHAN SNEAKS OUT THE BACK DOOR (1.13 video). Seems to me that some in the audience were a slight bit unruly, but that the real booing and razzing didn't start until Carnahan decided that he was just going to leave, and ignored the repeated question of "Are you on the plan?" The panelists got to speak and have their say. But Carnahan wasn't interested in actually ... you know ... talking with his citizens. And it appears that most of the "bussed in" members of the audience weren't even his constituents, but "astro-turfed" supporters from outside his district. Again, he wasn't interested in anyone's "free speech". He was stacking the deck, keeping his own citizens at a distance, stonewalling, and avoiding legitimate questions. In fact, when the event didn't go according to his script, he just left. He's interested in a debate or "free speech"? Doubtful. Firm

Sanity -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 9:32:49 AM)
Butch - again, the people at the initial events which I have described and provided links to were civil and were listening until they were told deliberate lies or until something just, utterly stupid was said to them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-Bpshk5nX0&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBJBcNFMIWc&feature=related http://www.breitbart.tv/aarp-reps-cancel-listening-session-after-participants-refuse-to-keep-their-comments-quiet/ Things seem to have changed since the original grass roots protests sprung up though - Obama has sent in government goons to enforce his no free speech zones, and Tea Party protesters have began showing up demanding free speech rights, and so yes - things are changing, and they are getting ugly. The more I think about it though, the less I blame the Tea Party folks because from what I have seen, they are behaving appropriately, and they have every right to show up at these public events and they have every right to demonstrate and to try to be heard. It appears that the union goons are the ones instigating the problems, and I call them government goons because Obama has obviously been encouraging their bad behavior: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25891.html#ixzz0NVMPocRq http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-dont-want-the-folks-who-created-the-mess-to-do-a-lot-of-talking/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/29/career-lawyers-overruled-on-voting-case/?feat=home_cube_position1 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I believe in peaceful meetings for the most part, sure. But when politicians start telling lies and feeding their constituents bullshit, and then when their audiences spot the lies and bullshit and react the way that these initial audiences did - that's terrific, good to see, and bloody good for those people. They did not allow anyone to speak at all.... so how do you know they are saying lies...shouting down people is not protest...it is denying free speech. Maybe I would have liked to hear both sides and make up my own mind…I sure would not want to hear someone screaming Heil Hitler over and over again every time someone tried to speak. Butch

Sanity -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 9:49:40 AM)
No, fake astroturf... is fake fake grass. [:D] In this sense, a true grass roots movement starts with average citizens, while astroturf movements are started by clandestine plants or operatives... and fake astroturf is a true grass roots movement which stands accused of being astroturfed. Get it? quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie "Real Astroturf" (which of course is fake grass) vs. "The Fake Stuff" (which as many would assume....is also fake grass).... (Did I miss something?).

SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 10:21:00 AM)
Seems your side is full of astro turf Sanity..... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32338375/ns/politics-the_new_york_times/ but, they are welcome by all means to say their piece...too bad they haven't enough manners to do so with decorum....but, I assume good manners means less publicity?....

Sanity -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 11:05:28 AM)
Lets see... MSNBC says... that the New York Times says... that Dems say.... that Conservatives are organizing as a political group (!) and that that's news somehow... and that its bad. [sm=biggrin.gif] Is there any other earth-shaking news out there... Frankly, that "news article" is an astoundingly and blatantly biased hit piece from two of the most Liberal "news" organizations on the planet. The question is Mark, is there any real evidence that in the initial town hall meetings there was a Conservative answer to David Axelrod behind any of it? Because I watched the videos, and it all looked very spontaneous to me. Democrats merely claiming that these events were astroturfed, really, means nothing. quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Seems your side is full of astro turf Sanity..... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32338375/ns/politics-the_new_york_times/ but, they are welcome by all means to say their piece...too bad they haven't enough manners to do so with decorum....but, I assume good manners means less publicity?....

SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 11:18:31 AM)
Fear is the easiest thing to feed....all that those on the other side have done was to play to the fears of their constituencies... It is tough to prove a negative....whether or not you like the answer at hand the health care issue MUST be addressed....I have as good of coverage as anyone could hope for and I wouldn't wish to change it but, that doesn't change the system nor does it change the system....It's broken...Feeding the fear of those so easily led as some have done just to make "good politics" is not constructive and the right has certainly tried very hard to muddy the issue....I just wish they would come out with their plan....let's compare and contrast....let's have a reasoned debate....there is blame enough to go around but it doesn't all lay on the left side of the column....

Sanity -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 11:26:03 AM)
That's a different debate, Mark, and besides, I can show you plenty if Libs feeding people fear, starting at the very top... But again, that's a different debate. The subject here is astroturfing. No evidence? Just the accusation that people speaking up against the government has got to be a conspiracy?

SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 11:35:57 AM)
All I know is what I have read.....much like you....

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 11:37:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Fear is the easiest thing to feed....all that those on the other side have done was to play to the fears of their constituencies... It is tough to prove a negative....whether or not you like the answer at hand the health care issue MUST be addressed....I have as good of coverage as anyone could hope for and I wouldn't wish to change it but, that doesn't change the system nor does it change the system....It's broken...Feeding the fear of those so easily led as some have done just to make "good politics" is not constructive and the right has certainly tried very hard to muddy the issue....I just wish they would come out with their plan....let's compare and contrast....let's have a reasoned debate....there is blame enough to go around but it doesn't all lay on the left side of the column.... When something is broken you can repair it or you can scrap it. I prefer repair in this case, because 90% of it is functioning just fine.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 11:39:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Fear is the easiest thing to feed....all that those on the other side have done was to play to the fears of their constituencies... Fear is the result of the lack of information, the stonewalling, and an obvious lack of attention to the details of any health bill on the part of it's proponents, combined with a distrust of a condescending political class that simply says "trust me, I know what is best for you" (and, oh, btw, STFU!) We are getting platitudes and "feel good" statements from the Democrats in Congress and from the Administration. We ask simple questions like "If the plan is so good, why aren't you (representative) going to use the same system?" Questions like "Have you read the bill, representative?". Questions like "How are we going to pay for this plan, representative?" Questions like "Why does the President and the Democratic leadership of Congress insist that we have to rush and vote on something immediately, right now!" The lack of candor on the politicians' part, combined with plenty of experience with what really happens to government programs leads to suspicion, and fear. If there is something to be afraid of, then fear is an entirely appropriate response. That is called rational. Buying a pig in a poke because the slippery salesman assures you that it's "the best you're gonna get" isn't rational. Concern turns to frustration. Frustration turns to fear. Fear turns to anger. "HURRY! ONE DAY SPECIAL ONLY! Low interest rates!" (55% compounded daily to qualified buyers) quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark It is tough to prove a negative....whether or not you like the answer at hand the health care issue MUST be addressed....I have as good of coverage as anyone could hope for and I wouldn't wish to change it but, that doesn't change the system nor does it change the system....It's broken...Feeding the fear of those so easily led as some have done just to make "good politics" is not constructive and the right has certainly tried very hard to muddy the issue....I just wish they would come out with their plan....let's compare and contrast....let's have a reasoned debate....there is blame enough to go around but it doesn't all lay on the left side of the column.... I agree the system is broken for many people. And I detest health insurance companies. So we should jump head long into the unknown? Obama is President for another 3+ years. A fully Democratic Congress will be around until late 2010, and even longer if they please the American people. What the hell is the hurry? Firm

Sanity -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 11:44:47 AM)
No, I read, view, and analyze sources other than just MSNBC. quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark All I know is what I have read.....much like you....

SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 11:47:58 AM)
ahhhhhhhhh....there you go Sanity....I have read the same article posted on Politico and Real Clear....I used the one I had at hand... which goes back to my other comment about me being too lazy to go searching....

Sanity -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 11:49:47 AM)
I spend too much time surfing the news, probably. Just one more article... I'm not addicted, I can quit any time. I'll quit tomorrow... Yeah. [8D] quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark ahhhhhhhhh....there you go Sanity....I have read the same article posted on Politico and Real Clear....I used the one I had at hand... which goes back to my other comment about me being too lazy to go searching....

SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 12:20:37 PM)
The first step is admitting you have a problem....only 11 more to go!!!!....

MarsBonfire -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 1:04:46 PM)
Well, at least we "liberals" haven't stooped to un-American tactics as the neo-cons did with the protesters before the Iraq war... You don't see Obama and his people rounding up the "astroturf teabaggers" and shoving them into a "free speech zone" miles away from whatever event they are trying to protest... But of course, that's EXACTLY what happened in early 2003. Or is "Sanity" going to dispute THAT historical fact as well, a la 1984's doublespeak?

MarsBonfire -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 1:08:15 PM)
Not that any of this matters. The Dems have the support. If needed, Obama can blow off the GOP and the blue dogs, and STILL pass health care reform. His only real problem, since gaining office, is thrying to engage the republican shitheads into any kind of bipartisan discussion in the first place. Beats me why. They had over eight fucking years to prove how great their policies were, how "right" their ideology was, and all it did was drown a city, get us into two "pre-emtive" wars, and kneecap our economy almost into a second great depression. FUCK THEM.

kdsub -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 2:07:43 PM)
Firm I live here...people I know were there... check the local news in st louis..or the Charles Jacko Report...

MmeGigs -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/8/2009 3:20:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity These protests are going on all over the country... and those that I've seen (mostly news video) seemed sincere. One can be incredibly sincere but still be completely wrong. The folks who want the government to keep its hands off their Medicare are a sad example of this.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/9/2009 3:32:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Firm I live here...people I know were there... check the local news in st louis..or the Charles Jacko Report... You'll need to give me some specific links, Butch. I googled "Charles Jacko Report", and pretty much came up blank (Charles Jaco, maybe?). I've read a few reports from local media, and saw some that made some accusations, but not anything that could be really sourced as to accuracy. As well, some of the things I read were not in accordance with many of the videos of the event. Firm

Arpig -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/9/2009 5:04:40 PM)
quote: We ask simple questions like "If the plan is so good, why aren't you (representative) going to use the same system?" But they are. They are going to keep their present health plan, just as you will be able to keep yours. Nothing in the present plan requires anybody to drop their present insurance. In the system proposed in the present bill, the public plan will be an option, not a requirement.

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