Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (Full Version)

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Sanity -> Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 11:34:46 AM)


Who remembers how, during the Bush years, many on the left used to claim that dissent was the highest form of patriotism?

http://www.cafepress.com/irregulargoods.7665839

Barack Obama himself once praised what Democrats used to call "grass roots activism":

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/06/obama_praises_working_at_a_grassroots_level_to_bring_about_change_in_2008.html

How times have changed though. NOW if you dare to dissent, Democrats wants to know who you are - they even have the White House collecting names:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/facts-are-stubborn-things-says-white-house-taking-on-disinformation.html

Democrats are branding protesters as "angry mobs":

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/05/dnc_web_ad_attacks_protesters_at_dem_town_halls.html

Nancy Pelosi claims protesters are "carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/05/pelosi_town_hall_protesters_are_carrying_swastikas.html

Obama's official media network NBC (which is owned by one of his largest campaign contributors, GE) is even running headline stories which are highly critical of health care dissenters:

quote:

Health debate produces angry protests, retorts

Do the conservative outbursts help or hurt the Democratic process?

WASHINGTON - The Earth-scorching August firefight over health care has given rise to questions about the point at which stifling civil discussion damages the democratic process.


All across the country, conservative opponents are clamoring to disrupt town-hall meetings about the proposed overhaul of the nation’s health care system, using GOP-generated talking points to shout down Democratic congressmen who attempt to explain the plan.


The Constitution protects their right to speak freely, but Democrats say that they are limiting rather than promoting an open exchange of ideas.

(More here).


My question after all of this is, what evidence (if any) do Democrats have that the town hall anger that is highly evident all around us is "Astroturf"  or protests ginned up by the GOP.

Anyone know? Because I haven't heard or seen any such evidence at all.


Finally, Obama had decided to bring back the real astroturf, the kind his Chicago machine politics has always reveled in an effort to try to beat back the health care protesters:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2547-Watchdog-Politics-Examiner~y2009m8d6-Obama-goes-into-Chicagostyle-community-organizer-mode

And here are a few of the news reports about the anger Democrats have been facing all around the country, which has them flip-flopping all over the place regarding the merits of dissent:

http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story/Rowdy-crowd-grills-congressmen-over-healthcare/TSiSTgUAeESfZ3a7pqZtnQ.cspx

http://www.courant.com/news/politics/hc-murphy-tea-party-0806.artaug06201412,0,1204957.story

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/top-stories/v-fullstory/story/1173602.html

http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story/Rowdy-crowd-grills-congressmen-over-healthcare/TSiSTgUAeESfZ3a7pqZtnQ.cspx





SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 11:36:04 AM)

Damn....I was so hoping for an astroturf debate....




tazzygirl -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 11:37:34 AM)

ok.. are you for or against astorturf?




Sanity -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 11:40:10 AM)


Well... it helps if you keep in mind, this is the Politics section.

The thread is about political astroturf.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Damn....I was so hoping for an astroturf debate....




FirmhandKY -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 11:41:38 AM)

I've been following some of this the last few days.

I'm not real happy about the apparent attempt to alienate politically disgruntled Americans who simply want the elected officials to actually ... well ... read the health care bill before they vote on it. Especially when one of the administrations campaign pledges was to put proposed legislation on the web, and require a waiting period before passage.

Or attempt to paint dissenters as "un-American", or to belittle and attempt to take away their humanity.

That's the road to serfdom and "re-education camps".

Firm




Sanity -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 11:47:56 AM)


There seems to be a very coordinated effort to paint everyone who disagrees with the the executive branch regarding the current health care debate with a very broad brush.

Apparently, a government funded disinformation campaign. A total smear, an attack against anyone who disagrees...

Will it succeed, do you think? Or will it backfire?




SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 11:49:30 AM)

count me in a against!....and field turf looks funny!




SteelofUtah -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 11:51:52 AM)

Why can't we just go back to actually watering regular lawns and mowing it when it grows too thick.......\

wait.....

Did I miss the point of this thread?

Steel




SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 12:07:33 PM)

Just think of the cases of "turf toe" that could have been prevented??????




FirmhandKY -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 12:18:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Just think of the cases of "turf toe" that could have been prevented??????

You guys are close to being accused of hijacking a thread.

Firm




SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 12:30:28 PM)

My apologies to Sanity....he is a serous sort and I like him in spite of most of his views....the use of the term Astro Turf just struck me funny.....





tazzygirl -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 1:11:21 PM)

To bring it back on track....


The CPR has taken credit for the uproars at Town Hall Meetings

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/cpr-administers-bad-facts-again/

quote:

CPR Administers Bad Facts, Again
The group says premiums could nearly double for those who buy their own insurance. Experts we consulted disagree.
August 3, 2009


Summary
The latest ad from the group Conservatives for Patients’ Rights claims that "new rules could hike your health insurance premiums 95 percent." That’s misleading.


From here, a link that may be interesting....

quote:

Furthermore, the analysis on which CPR bases its claim comes from an advocacy association of insurance providers that says its mission is to "promote free market solutions" to America’s health care challenges. Member companies specialize in, among other areas, the individual market. Its analysis focuses only on proposed rules that could raise premiums, while failing to consider provisions of the House and Senate health care bills that would lower premiums, especially for those who would be buying policies as individuals.


http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/about/index.asp

quote:

Council for Affordable Health Insurance

Who We Are

The Council for Affordable Health Insurance (CAHI) is a research and advocacy association of insurance carriers active in the individual, small group, HSA and senior markets. CAHI's membership includes insurance companies, small businesses, providers, nonprofit associations, actuaries, insurance brokers and individuals. Since 1992, CAHI has been an active advocate for market-oriented solutions to the problems in America's health care system.


Now.. who is CPR?

Their site...

http://www.cprights.org/

Not too bad a site.

http://www.cprights.org/pdf/RickScottBio.pdf

quote:

Richard L. Scott
A Lifelong Advocate For Patient Rights
Born in Bloomington, Illinois and raised in Kansas City, MO, Richard Scott is considered
one of America’s foremost health care entrepreneurs. The son of a truck driver and JC
Penney clerk, Scott has spent his career working to provide innovative, affordable, high
quality health care services by emphasizing a patient-centric approach to cost and care.
Scott is the founder of two health care providers, Columbia Hospital Corporation and
Solantic Corporation, and he currently serves as Chairman of Solantic, which builds and
operates innovative, cost and service conscious urgent care facilities throughout Florida.


He owns a company I have worked for... and my mother worked for. Not too bad a business man.

http://www.cprights.org/pdf/FastFactsAboutRickScott.pdf

 Started Columbia Hospital in 1987, buying two hospitals in El Paso, Texas with an
initial equity investment of $125,000.
 Columbia bought HCA, Inc. in 1994, adding 100 hospitals to the company. The
company changed its name to Columbia/HCA.
 Under Rick’s leadership, Columbia/HCA became the world’s largest private health
care provider, employing more than 285,000 people and revenues of more than $20
billion in 1997.
 In 1997, Business Week named Columbia one of the 50 Best Performing Companies
of the S&P 500.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn_Scott

quote:

Scott founded the Columbia Hospital Corporation in 1987, but was ousted by the company's board of directors in 1997 in the midst of the nation's biggest health care fraud scandal, which involved alleged Medicaid and Medicare fraud.[1][2] In 2001, Scott co-founded the Solantic Corporation, which operates walk-in medical care centers. He also owns Continental Structural Plastics, North America's largest industrial composites molder.


No clue if he was implicated... nor does it matter for this discussion.

Both of the following are interesting.. for different reasons.

quote:

In the 1990s, Scott was a partner of George W. Bush in ownership of the Texas Rangers. He was also a vice-chairman of The Business Council.


quote:

Scott has recently been linked to a company which both Iran and Saudi Arabia use to enforce internet censorship. Scott sits on the board of Secure Computing. Media Matters released a document detailing Scott's links to the internet monitoring company, which has been used by these regimes in order to suppress internet communication. Reporters Without Borders, in 2001, produced a report which stated: "According to Secure Computing, this software makes it possible to block millions of websites in over 60 categories. It is therefore easy for the Iranian government to block websites for political reasons."[25]


quote:

In February 2009, Scott founded Conservatives for Patients' Rights (CPR), which he said was intended to put pressure on U.S. Democrats to enact health care legislation based on free-market principles.[26]. As of March, Scott had given about $5 million for a planned $20 million ad campaign by CPR.[27] CPR opposes the broad outlines of President Obama's health-care plans, and has hired Creative Response Concepts, a public relations firm which previously worked with the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.


seems there was no CPR before Obama laid out his plan... again.. interesting... coupled with his relationship with Bush.. perhaps even more so.

http://mediamattersaction.org/blog/200906240003

quote:

Anyone familiar with Rick Scott, Conservatives for Patients Rights (CPR), and/or the Columbia/HCA hospital system knows that $100 million is just a drop in the bucket compared to the fine Scott's Columbia/HCA paid for defrauding Medicare.

Rick Scott's company, Columbia/HCA, paid a $1.7 billion settlement after pleading guilty to several charges. The fraud was so rampant under Scott's leadership that some documents were brazenly "stamped with warnings that they should not be disclosed to Medicare auditors," "some hospitals were knowingly inflating the numbers reported to the Government in the cost report to improperly raise total compensation," and they "improperly included expenses for employee picnics, Christmas gifts and food for nonemployees at social functions as expenditures related to patient care in the cost report for its headquarters."

Columbia/HCA pled guilty to "overcharging the government," "exaggerating the seriousness of the illnesses" of patients, and giving doctors kickbacks in order to receive higher Medicare payments. Well done. It takes a special kind of person to steal money from a program that helps hardworking Americans.

It's funny (in a twisted way) that with all the arguments against health care reform based on the government's record of "waste, fraud, and abuse," that these private entities are taking such liberties with Medicare funding.

Note: When Rick Scott is asked about the fraud his company committed, he always answers that he was never charged with any crimes. Correct. But to try to convince Americans that he was unaware of his company's activity is a stretch. That's like a coach trying to claim ignorance about which plays his team runs on the field.

–Melinda Warner


Again, he is right, he was never charged.

http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/200904280006

quote:

Scott Has Been An Active GOP Contributor

Richard L. Scott Has Donated More Than $63,000 To Republican Political Candidates. According to CQMoneyline.com, Richard L. Scott of Florida, Tennessee, and Texas has donated at least $63,500 to political campaigns since 1989. The figure includes $2,300 given to the Presidential campaign of Governor Mitt Romney in December 2007 and another $2,300 given to the Presidential campaign of Senator John McCain in March 2008. [CQMoneyline.com, accessed 2/27/09]

Richard L. Scott Donated More Than $30,000 To John McCain. According to the financial records of Campaign Money, Richard L. Scott donated at least $45,000 to Republican candidates and committees during the 2008 election cycle:

•McCain Victory Committee: -$2,300, 6/29/08
•McCain Victory Committee: $30,800, 5/7/08
•John McCain 2008, Inc: $2,300, 3/11/08
•Republican Party of Florida: $10,000, 3/6/08
•McConnell Senate Committee '08: $2,000, 12/14/07
•Romney for President, Inc: $2,300, 12/12/07
[CampaignMoney.com, accessed 2/27/09]


quote:

Richard L. Scott Had A Reputation For Dismissing The Needs Of The Community. NurseWeek.com reported: "'Rick Scott created a public relations nightmare for himself. He created an image, which may or may not be fair, of a grand buccaneer,' said Paul Torrens, MD, MPH, professor of health services management at the UCLA School of Public Health. 'His arrogance and disdain for concern for communities, which had been a part of health care, are appalling.'" [NurseWeek.com, 9/10/97]


now.. is anything clicking yet? hmmm? perhaps that he was dragged before a congressional hearing and ousted from his prime job during the Clinton administration?

now, of course, with a man this smart, and he is indeed smart, i would hope that was not his only reason to be doing as he is doing. However, he is quickly becoming a joke for his outlandish lies and twisting of the truth.. seems the swift boating is running rampant.

and, this site might tie it in a bit closer

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/us/politics/02scott.html?_r=1

i can possibly see why the Dems think the Republicans are behind this man... its personal for Scott, in my opinion, on more than one level.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 2:30:17 PM)

Dont you know that the mobs are highly organized by a very influential right wing blogger...who has 23 facebook friends and 5 twitter followers? At least thats what the Dems would have you think.

not quite halfway down




kdsub -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 2:41:25 PM)

Damn it hurts when the shoe is on the other foot does it not...[:D] Why complain now you taught them well...they are only following the republican lead.

You know how it goes… what goes around comes around.

Be a man...suck it up and take it...don't be a whiner...said in good fun...not personal

Butch




tazzygirl -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 2:44:29 PM)

None of that has anything to do with what is being posted.

My post was in response to Sanity's question

quote:

My question after all of this is, what evidence (if any) do Democrats have that the town hall anger that is highly evident all around us is "Astroturf" or protests ginned up by the GOP.

Anyone know? Because I haven't heard or seen any such evidence at all.




Sanity -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 2:55:51 PM)


Several of the people in the videos claim to be registered Democrats who go to these meetings on their own accord. A lot of them are older too, and their rage seems very real.

You can hardly manufacture that kind of rage... and so far as the Democrats claiming its all astroturfed, that falls flat on my ears when I see Obama's emails calling for organized Democrat turnout at these events to shout down anyone who is trying to be heard who may be against his proposals.

HE seems to be the one who is guilty of astroturfing, at the very least AS guilty as anyone else is.




tazzygirl -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 3:01:02 PM)

Question... would that hold up if the CRP and others like it were not making up their own grass?




rulemylife -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 3:01:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

My question after all of this is, what evidence (if any) do Democrats have that the town hall anger that is highly evident all around us is "Astroturf"  or protests ginned up by the GOP.

Anyone know? Because I haven't heard or seen any such evidence at all.




Politics | Activists say no letup for health protests

Some of the activists who've shown up at town hall meetings held recently by Sen. Arlen Specter, D-Pa., Rep. Steve Kagen, D-Wis., and others are affiliated with loosely connected right-leaning groups, including Conservatives for Patients' Rights and Americans for Prosperity, according to officials at those groups.

The Washingon Post reported that Conservatives for Patients' Rights (CPR) was launched this year by Rick Scott, the controversial former chief executive of the HCA/Columbia hospitals company, which ousted him in 1997 in the midst of the nation's largest health-care fraud scandal.

CPR is funded primarily from Scott's pocket -- he now runs a chain of walk-in clinics in Florida -- and has spent millions of dollars on advertising this year.


AFL-CIO NOW BLOG | Health Care Reform Opponent Outed


The former CEO of Columbia/Hospital Corporation of America who was forced to resign in 1997 amid fraud charges, as well as the group that launched the infamous “Swift Boat” attack on the 2004 presidential bid of Sen. John Kerry, are now trying to sink health care reform.

But Health Care for America NOW! (HCAN), which supports health care reform, last week launched a television ad (left) detailing the “dubious past in the health care industry” of anti-health care reform front man Rick Scott.

According HCAN, after Scott was forced to resign from the health care giant in the wake of fraud charges, Columbia/HCA agreed to pay $1.7 billion in fines and penalties—the largest health care fraud settlement in U.S. history.

Says HCAN in a statement: The hospital corporation pleaded guilty to a litany of criminal and civil charges including lying to the government about how sick patients were so they could collect larger fees.

Meanwhile, The Washington Post reported this morning that Scott is using $5 million of his own money, plus another $15 million from donors he refuses to name, to finance the “swift boating” of President Obama’s health care reform initiatives. The Post reports that PRC Public Relations, the group that slimed Kerry’s Vietnam War record, is coordinating the campaign.

Earlier this year, Scott, who is a major donor to the Republican Party, according the Washington newspaper Politico, founded the group Conservatives for Patients’ Rights. That group is airing the ads on national cable outlets like CNN and Fox attacking Obama’s health care proposals with false claims and recycled scare tactics.


The Hill's Pundits Blog » Don't Be Fooled by Orchestrated Protests

But, oh, Democracy! How ugly it gets when it’s manipulated and manufactured instead. Which is exactly what’s happening with today’s so-called “spontaneous” protests against healthcare reform.

The truth is, there’s nothing spontaneous about them at all. They are all staged protests, paid for by Washington lobbyists, trying to kill any healthcare reform legislation this year.

And they’re orchestrated by the same people who put together those Tea Bag Parties a few months ago. In fact, Bob MacGuffie, a leader of the so-called “Tea Party Patriots,” published on the Internet a list of upcoming congressional town halls, together with a memo on how to cause the most disturbance — and therefore end up on YouTube.

Among his directions:
• Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half.
• You need to rock the boat early.
• The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script, stand up and shout out.

Clearly, these demonstrations are aimed, not to discuss or debate the issues, but to disrupt or prevent any reasonable debate. As such, I believe that they’re so ugly and so clearly manufactured, they will backfire.


A Action Memo Organize for Success

You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation, Watch for an
opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early.

If he blames Bush for something or offers other excuses -- call him on it, yell back and have
someone else follow-up with a shout-out.


Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign

On Friday, July 24, a representative of Conservatives for Patients Rights--the anti-health care reform group run by disgraced hospital executive Rick Scott, in conjunction with the message men behind the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth--sent an email to a list serve (called the Tea Party Patriots Health Care Reform Committee) containing a spreadsheet that lists over one hundred congressional town halls from late July into September.

The email from CPR to tea baggers suggests that, though conservatives portray the tea bagger disruptions as symptoms of a populist rebellion roiling unprompted through key districts around the country, they have to a great extent been orchestrated by anti-health care reform groups financed by industry. (CPR did not immediately respond to a request for comment.)







tazzygirl -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 3:05:37 PM)

To be honest, if someone told me a bill would cost me 95% more money if it becomes a law... i would be mad too and very against it. Its one of those spins CRP is doing, and fact check is debunking right and left.




SilverMark -> RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff (8/6/2009 3:14:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Several of the people in the videos claim to be registered Democrats who go to these meetings on their own accord. A lot of them are older too, and their rage seems very real.

You can hardly manufacture that kind of rage... and so far as the Democrats claiming its all astroturfed, that falls flat on my ears when I see Obama's emails calling for organized Democrat turnout at these events to shout down anyone who is trying to be heard who may be against his proposals.

HE seems to be the one who is guilty of astroturfing, at the very least AS guilty as anyone else is.


Show me an E-mail from Obama that instructs anyone to do this????....Not even CREDO or Move On are encouraging such activity in the daily mails I receive....and I am on all of those as well as the DNC mailing lists.




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