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RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 5:31:14 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I've always considered myself to be geared towards smaller government, less intervention, and fewer intrusions onto the individual expression of existence. I've championed the Free Market, and lassaize-faire government for almost three decades, but the past several years have jaded me.

Dame Calla,

How would a closed Market and stringent government regulations enforced by a dictatorial bureaucrats, or even a fascist approach, as is being attempted now where the government takes an ownership position of a company or industry; have change these results? Should life-long employment at a specific salary level be guaranteed by the educational system or military? What happens if, as has occurred in the computer industry, when you began college it was in demand, now graduating - that industry is near the top of the jobless market?

quote:

only to be brushed aside by the private sector because he wasn't trained in the 'latest technology' when he was released during the draw-down of forces, and 20 years self-employed as a midwife, paramedic, web developer, and medical writer, it only took me six years as a corporate drone to figure out that a broad swath of human beings are greedy, selfish, bitter, lazy, and foolish, and that the further up you follow the dollar, the deeper the corruption eats its way into the corporate psyche.


My years as a "corporate drone" educated me to not work for one I didn't have an ownership position. I learned that the only way to be paid what you are worth is to work for yourself. That's a serious commitment which could result in terrible consequences. Most don't have the guts to find out what they are really worth by going out on their own. From personal experience, I don't blame them; there are many scary nights when 'making payroll' required selling off assets or mortgaging personal property. I appreciate that many prefer to spend their sleepless nights bitching about how underpaid and unappreciated they are; having no thought, and no desire, to put personal accountability at the top of the list of causes for their issues and doing something about it. Other than looking for the government to nanny them and get them through these times, that is.

No doubt, many are more knowledgeable, more educated, more able, work harder, than any number of people who represent whatever definition of success you what to use; yet why aren't they "successful"? Opportunity is but one contributing aspect. Luck may play a small part, but most of the "lucky" people I've know had the initiative, drive, and self determination to take advantage of those "lucky" times that came their way.

It seems to me that people have so little confidence in themselves and their abilities that the only way they think they can survive is with anyone other than them determining their future. Everyone who points to increasing the minimum wage as a good idea please tell me - how would it help? Raising the minimum wage in CA only served to increase unemployment and curtail State income tax revenue.

The "pursuit" of happiness is a Constitutional guarantee. Housing, food, health care, and even education aren't Constitutionally mandated. A "living wage" isn't guaranteed nor defined.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
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RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 5:33:26 PM   
tazzygirl


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Starting July 24, 2007, when the federal wage increase takes effect, Washington state will have the highest wage in the nation at $7.93, followed by Oregon at $7.80, Connecticut at $7.65, Vermont at $7.53, California and Massachusetts at $7.50 and Rhode Island at $7.40.

Um... werent they already paying it from 2007?



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RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 5:43:43 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth] Most don't have the guts to find out what they are really worth by going out on their own.


I have a serious, honest question in response to this statement:

What should be done with people who aren't economically "worth" even a subsistence wage?

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RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 5:55:12 PM   
tazzygirl


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this has been quite an interesting research event. not only have i found that many states were already paying the minimum, not every state has too... nor does every business... and over half of those earning minimum are tipped employees who dont make 7.25 an hour.

http://www.paywizard.org/main/Minimumwageandovertime/

might make for some eye opening reading.


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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 5:58:21 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Excellent post Merc, and point on.

Firm



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RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 6:11:01 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

It seems to me that people have so little confidence in themselves and their abilities that the only way they think they can survive is with anyone other than them determining their future. Everyone who points to increasing the minimum wage as a good idea please tell me - how would it help? Raising the minimum wage in CA only served to increase unemployment and curtail State income tax revenue


im still waiting to see how raising federal minimum had any bearing on California who was already paying above it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 6:11:37 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MMercurial
train 'em and watch 'em go work for someone else, when when they came to you, they were worth NEGATIVE $75 an hour to you, because you had to slow down what you do, to train them, so your own productivity was cut in half.....


But if you paid them a decent wage, they wouldn't leave you after they're trained to go work for someone else and you could recoup your investment in them. It seems to me that these folks who leave for better paying jobs are doing just what the "free market" folks have been telling them they should do - take whatever job they can find, develop some skills, then move on to something that pays better.

quote:

Minimum wage hurts those with the least skills.


And employers who pay minimum wage, as you have pointed out. Let's say we're competitors. If you're paying minimum wage and I'm paying couple dollars more an hour, I can let you do the training then hire your best performers and run my business with fewer employees than you do. And I'll laugh all the way to the bank while you bitch about what you're paying to train my future employees.


The fact is that low wages hurt all of us. Our ecomony needs a lot of unskilled workers. Fewer than 1/3 of jobs in the US require more than a high school diploma. Most of the growth in our economy in recent years has been in the retail and service sectors, which pay crap wages. Unfortunately, ours is a consumer-driven economy, and as we have shipped our decent-paying jobs overseas and increased the number of low-wage jobs, we have decreased the number of effective consumers. Pretty short-sighted, really.

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RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 6:16:39 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

My years as a "corporate drone" educated me to not work for one I didn't have an ownership position.


Which is a marvelous idea which I very much took to heart in my over-20-years as an independent contractor and business owner... unfortunately, health insurance, which has been such a HUGE issue on the boards, was the reason that I closed my business, laid off my few measly (but decently paid) employees, and went to work in the corporate sector, because you see, I have chronic degenerative disease, and the insurance company who was providing our insurance canceled our policy because they were concerned that my care was going to be far too expensive for such a small employee pool.

So now, after over 2 decades of fighting tooth and nail, I am a corporate clone, not because I was lazy or short-sighted, but because my body failed me. Perhaps, though, it would be best just to euthanize me and free up all those resources for higher profit margins. I think there was a suitable scene from Scrooge, if I'm not mistaken...

quote:

SCROOGE
I wish to be left alone. Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned -- they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.

GENTLEMAN #2
Many can't go there; and many would rather die.

SCROOGE
If they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides -- excuse me -- I don't know that.

GENTLEMAN #1
But you might know it,' observed the gentleman.

SCROOGE
It's not my business. It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!

(Courtesy of Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol")


DC

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 6:33:49 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
it's just my usual anti-authortarian rant about depending on the government to solve our problems.


But businesses that pay low wages are depending on government to solve their problems. Low wages are being subsidized with tax dollars in the form of assistance programs for low-wage workers - food stamps, daycare assistance, housing assistance, medical assistance, the Earned Income Credit...


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 6:42:48 PM   
servantforuse


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When you own a business it is your job to try to make a profit, either for yourself or if a larger company for the shareholders who invest  in that company. It is not there to give assistance to lower wage earners. It is a business, not the 'make a wish' charity.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 6:56:00 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

When you own a business it is your job to try to make a profit, either for yourself or if a larger company for the shareholders who invest  in that company. It is not there to give assistance to lower wage earners. It is a business, not the 'make a wish' charity.


... and part of owning a business is developing your business plan in such a way that you can provide a fair and living wage to your employees. It is just good business to do so. Having a living wage assures that your employees are not more worried about whether they'll be able to keep a roof over their heads than their projects for the day at work. Providing health insurance means that they will not be worrying about whether they can take their 3-year-old to the doctor's office instead of paying attention to good customer service.

Paying a living wage means that your employees can count on you and on your business and not be torn between two or three bosses. It encourages employee loyalty and, in my experience, improves both customer response and employee productivity.

DC

PS: Oh, and I've reached the conclusion that public speculation on the 'futures' of businesses, which is a form of legalized gambling, may actually have been the root of the destruction of free trade in the US.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/10/2009 6:58:42 PM >


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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 7:05:21 PM   
Lucylastic


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I wish there were more employers who felt that DC,
Lucy


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 7:05:47 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Why is it that in every discussion of the minimum wage, people operate on the presumption that every wage has to be a "living" wage? What's wrong with a job that merely supplements the primary income or a job that just puts a little extra spending money in a teenager's or retirees pocket? These are the jobs you help kill with every increase of the minimum wage.


Because putting a little money in a teenager's or retirees pockets in a part-time position, to avoid paying benefits, deprives people who would need those jobs on a full-time basis.  Not as merely supplements.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 7:07:41 PM   
tazzygirl


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Might be interesting to know that, in some states, kids are paid less than minimum wage for the first 90 days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S.A._minimum_wages

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 7:07:56 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I wish there were more employers who felt that DC,
Lucy



So do I, Lucy... so do I.

DC

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 7:10:18 PM   
servantforuse


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If a business owner wants to treat his employees poorly, that is up to him. If he wants t
o pay more to get quality employees that is also up to him. It's his company. 

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 7:13:22 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If a business owner wants to treat his employees poorly, that is up to him. If he wants t
o pay more to get quality employees that is also up to him. It's his company. 


You're right. May you find yourself happy and healthy with a boss who is equivalently short-sighted. The rest of us will gladly take the far-sighted, responsible bosses off your hands.

DC

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 7:18:59 PM   
servantforuse


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I'm not saying that it's the best way to run a business. I'm just saying it's their right to do so. The more profitable company in the end will be the one who pays quality employees a good wage.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 7:21:08 PM   
tazzygirl


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Labor laws are here for a reason. dont like the reason, change the laws.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/10/2009 7:21:35 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Conversely to your point, businesses are having to pay people who are being overcompensated at the current level of minimum wage.



A federal minimum wage of $7.25/hour is overcompensation?

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