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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 3:49:58 AM   
Musicmystery


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Term,

In the 70s, a movement began to stress the importance of a child's self-esteem. It's nonsense, of course, but it's the mainstream approach to this day. "That's OK, Johnny, you don't have to do this--I understand that you're not good enough" is patronizing, not self-esteem, and here's a big surprise--kids would rather not work at stuff, and will get out of it if they can. Duh.

This habit and pattern continues into college. What are these kids supposed to do when they graduate? Populate and spread the new culture, I suppose.

Add to that our litigious society. When I had trouble with a teacher, my parents visited the teacher and I got in trouble. Today, the parents sue the school. Consequently (at college too), the focus becomes avoiding lawsuits and making everyone happy.

There are no standards anymore. I taught at a Jesuit college for two years. God forbid princess get anything lower than a B, and she'd probably cry about that. The emphasis was on "we teach the entire person," which is code for letting them float around for four years, doing little but drinking, and then let them go work for Daddy's company.

It's dismissal, and getting worse. The will to fix it isn't there--not from administration, parents or students. Frustrated faculty sooner or later settle into the world they're forced to inhabit, or quit for other pursuits.

Welcome to America.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 9:24:08 AM   
BeingChewsie


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Hi Tim,

We have pulled our son from the public schools and will start home school this fall with an online private academy. For us, it is the Soledad prison like socialization program of bullying, fights, threats, weapons and the watered down educational standards that made us pull the plug here in CA.

The experience you have had on the higher education level is just like ours. Administration really pushing us to "pass" students, no matter what it takes. It is all about the tuition money, nobody cares if they are completely unprepared, just move them along.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Term,

In the 70s, a movement began to stress the importance of a child's self-esteem. It's nonsense, of course, but it's the mainstream approach to this day. "That's OK, Johnny, you don't have to do this--I understand that you're not good enough" is patronizing, not self-esteem, and here's a big surprise--kids would rather not work at stuff, and will get out of it if they can. Duh.

This habit and pattern continues into college. What are these kids supposed to do when they graduate? Populate and spread the new culture, I suppose.

Add to that our litigious society. When I had trouble with a teacher, my parents visited the teacher and I got in trouble. Today, the parents sue the school. Consequently (at college too), the focus becomes avoiding lawsuits and making everyone happy.

There are no standards anymore. I taught at a Jesuit college for two years. God forbid princess get anything lower than a B, and she'd probably cry about that. The emphasis was on "we teach the entire person," which is code for letting them float around for four years, doing little but drinking, and then let them go work for Daddy's company.

It's dismissal, and getting worse. The will to fix it isn't there--not from administration, parents or students. Frustrated faculty sooner or later settle into the world they're forced to inhabit, or quit for other pursuits.

Welcome to America.


_____________________________

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 9:39:38 AM   
cornflakegirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
Hi Tim,

We have pulled our son from the public schools and will start home school this fall with an online private academy. For us, it is the Soledad prison like socialization program of bullying, fights, threats, weapons and the watered down educational standards that made us pull the plug here in CA.

The experience you have had on the higher education level is just like ours. Administration really pushing us to "pass" students, no matter what it takes. It is all about the tuition money, nobody cares if they are completely unprepared, just move them along.


Best of luck to you! Take it easy those first couple of months. Bringing them home is a real adjustment. I swear I had to learn to like my child again. It was very difficult being around each other 16 waking hours a day after years of dinner, homework, bedtime, weekends. Since we got through the initial phase it's been pretty great, though. :)

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 10:45:29 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
PS: hastening to add... that parents have a huge amount of responsibility in what their children are taught. It is up to us, as parents, to supplement whatever education our children receive in schools. I still can't believe the number of people whose entire library at home consists of romance novels and 'how to' books by the likes of Dr Phil   .


And when the parents themselves are over-worked, over-stressed, each working 10+ hour days just to make ends meet... when, exactly, are they supposed to find time to fulfill that responsibility?

Moreso, when most parents are themselves products of the same system, that never taught them how to make good decisions, that never taught them the importance of education or intelligence or thinking things through... how, exactly, are they supposed to even know how to fulfill that responsibility?

We have an entire generation of parents that don't know how to raise kids. Is it any wonder that we're getting a new generation of kids that don't know the first thing about parenting?

And here's the nasty part: You can say all you want, "it's the parents responsibility" - but at this point, the chances of that working are almost nil. Something else has to be done, because the parents won't or can't fulfill that responsibility, and I can't afford to live in a society full of the sorts of people that the status quo is churning out.

It isn't about who's to blame, it's about what can be done to fix it.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 11:17:30 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

it's about what can be done to fix it.
Accountability for results applied to teachers and school administrators, and the elimination of mandatory k-12 education.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 11:20:08 AM   
cornflakegirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
elimination of mandatory k-12 education.


That's pretty radical! How do you address the ultimate toll on society when undereducated people are unable to find gainful employment as adults?

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 11:37:17 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
elimination of mandatory k-12 education.


That's pretty radical! How do you address the ultimate toll on society when undereducated people are unable to find gainful employment as adults?

Differentiate that result from the current result; producing 'graduates' without the ability to do 3rd grade math and write at a 3rd grade level.

Basic 'education' can be made specific for the job market. Also, this doesn't assume the elimination of private and/or home schooling; however it gets to the crux of the problem on a number of fronts. It eliminates those not wanted to be in school. It will get set graduation standards which, if not obtained, will provide school system accountability. It will better allocate resources, personnel and economic, to those desiring an education.

Now - if you want to maintain the school system as its currently constituted, a baby sitting service, than it would be radical. However, if you want to produce an educated population, you have to eliminate from your efforts those that don't want to be educated.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 12:09:03 PM   
Lucylastic


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without added government interference? just imagine how much that will cost to initiate, let alone carry out long term... I thought you weren't in favour of big government and well, failure is going to be decided by who?? at what age? how can you legislate on who gets it and who doesnt beyond ability to pay?and what do you do with the ones who dont get schooling? for whatever reason, and how do you judge that?...
just wondering



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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 12:16:34 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

without added government interference?
"Government interference? You'll have to explain what you mean. Currently, in many states, CA among them, there are standardized tests. The test results wouldn't eliminate students from attending schools it would eliminate ineffective teachers who are not producing educated students. It wouldn't take any more government than what's already in place. It only adds teacher/administration accountability and consequence for poor performance at the teacher level.
quote:

failure is going to be decided by who??
RESULTS and tests.
quote:

at what age? how can you legislate on who gets it
Everyone "gets it" just like now - except you won't have to "get it"; also like now - except you won't have to show up either.

quote:

what do you do with the ones who dont get schooling?
Again, the exact same thing that you do with the ones who now are getting "schooling" but can't make change for 0.67 cents when given a dollar, or who can't read a job application questionnaire.

quote:

how do you judge that?...
Judge what? Read back through this thread for many references of what the current school system is producing, and you can "judge".

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/19/2009 12:18:28 PM >

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 12:36:20 PM   
cornflakegirl


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It's not a terrible idea, Merc.

I think there are issues with it. I think it would deprive low income and low performing areas of teachers because, hello, if you take a group of inner city poor kids vs a group of suburban kids with stay at home moms who taught them to read when they were three, you know which teacher is going to come out with the better results.

I bet there are ways to run with your idea and address those issues, though. Maybe make classes stick with teachers on a 4 year schedule, and require individual progress in lieu of attaining X standard. So the suburbanite teacher gets all the kids above an 80% and the inner city teacher gets all her kids up 10% yearly during the time she has with them, something like that.

Also, it doesn't address kids whose parents suck and refused to engage. I don't think you can really legislate parents into being decent human beings, though. :/


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 1:31:41 PM   
BeingChewsie


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Thank you! We are planning to take it slow. We are going to be doing quite a bit of traveling this year so that will hopefully ease the transition a little.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl

Best of luck to you! Take it easy those first couple of months. Bringing them home is a real adjustment. I swear I had to learn to like my child again. It was very difficult being around each other 16 waking hours a day after years of dinner, homework, bedtime, weekends. Since we got through the initial phase it's been pretty great, though. :)


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 3:14:07 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

if you take a group of inner city poor kids vs a group of suburban kids with stay at home moms who taught them to read when they were three, you know which teacher is going to come out with the better results.
I don't think that is the case. I was an 'inner city' kid. Granted, it was a long time ago and I didn't realize I was 'underprivileged' but I did live in, what now would be considered, a 'poor' neighborhood; walking up hill to school - both ways!

quote:

So the suburbanite teacher gets all the kids above an 80% and the inner city teacher gets all her kids up 10% yearly during the time she has with them, something like that
Not my intent to penalize teachers for having a poor graduation rate. Effective teaching is based upon improvement of results at the individual pupil level. With the mandatory 'pass' replaced by a qualified 'promoted' both the student's progress and the teacher's effectiveness would be easily determined. No penalty for working in a economically disadvantaged area, in fact in fleshing out the idea (as if it would EVERY be considered) I'd give incentives for any teacher willing to work in those areas, and performance bonuses for those producing positive (read as qualified graduates) results.

It would be an affective "no child left behind" because any children who couldn't keep up and yet wanted to stay and get an education could stay in the system and be directed to some form of education and/or skill path which would benefit them individually and society in general. Don't you think that would be much preferable to passing and 'graduating' them as we do now for work behind the counter at some fast food place where they've replaced numbers and words with pictures and automatic change makers?

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 3:28:30 PM   
cornflakegirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

if you take a group of inner city poor kids vs a group of suburban kids with stay at home moms who taught them to read when they were three, you know which teacher is going to come out with the better results.
I don't think that is the case.


Statistics say, in general, it is the case. THere will always be people that buck the trends, but in general, certain segments of the population have lower or higher achievement in school.

quote:

quote:

So the suburbanite teacher gets all the kids above an 80% and the inner city teacher gets all her kids up 10% yearly during the time she has with them, something like that
Not my intent to penalize teachers for having a poor graduation rate. Effective teaching is based upon improvement of results at the individual pupil level. With the mandatory 'pass' replaced by a qualified 'promoted' both the student's progress and the teacher's effectiveness would be easily determined. No penalty for working in a economically disadvantaged area, in fact in fleshing out the idea (as if it would EVERY be considered) I'd give incentives for any teacher willing to work in those areas, and performance bonuses for those producing positive (read as qualified graduates) results.

It would be an affective "no child left behind" because any children who couldn't keep up and yet wanted to stay and get an education could stay in the system and be directed to some form of education and/or skill path which would benefit them individually and society in general. Don't you think that would be much preferable to passing and 'graduating' them as we do now for work behind the counter at some fast food place where they've replaced numbers and words with pictures and automatic change makers?


Yeah, I do think it's a good idea. Go run for some high office in Education, make it happen! ;)

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/19/2009 4:38:36 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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I wonder what people here think of the Germanic model, where parents pay for their child to attend elementary-level education, and the child has to pass a test to be accepted to high-school, or goes into apprenticeship. However, university is -free-, and apprenticeships are paid at a nominal rate, for hours worked less training time.

I know that some folks say that this would penalize lower-income families, but I have family in Puerto Rico, and there, 95% of the parents, regardless of their income level, pay for their children to go to private schools (the only ones that don't are pretty much the ones who don't give a darn about education and don't care where their kids are -- and who don't have extended family who care enough to make an issue about making sure the kids get into a good education. Education is important enough to them that they'll sacrifice in other areas, focusing on food, shelter, and education. (Of course, uniforms and supplies come with their tuition for most of these kids).

I wonder, sometimes, if it isn't the issue of 'free', compulsory education that is the problem. I think that people don't value what they don't pay for -- and for something like health-care, where it isn't a value issue, having it handled by a third party without cost makes sense -- but where you need to have the people engaged in the process in order to learn (student), and support learning (the parent or parents), I wonder if the fact that it is free means that it loses its value, and there comes a general unwillingness to put any effort into the process (plus blaming the teacher when things don't go right, because it's easier to blame the teachers than to put out the effort to actually -learn-). I wonder, sometimes, whether charging for education at the lower levels would allow for a broader scope of educational opportunities, and whether the free market might actually -work- for education, as well as opening the door to a greater capacity to utilize educational alternatives like homeschool, cooperative schools, and community education.

Thoughs...

DC

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/19/2009 4:40:06 PM >


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/20/2009 1:14:24 AM   
Termyn8or


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Funny MM, et alii, that a discussion about minimum wage has progresswed into education, and it seems more particularly primary education. It all seemed so easy didn't it ?

Remember though what Chris Rock said "When Johnnie can't read it's mamas fault". Though I could read quite proficiently before entering kindergarden, I knew nothing of composing and using grammar properly. I simply was not interested. In grade school they didn't like the fact that I ignored the classroom to persue my own intersts, and even my Mother will tell you I got "busted" for drawing schematics in English class. But now I make more that they, so who are thay to say. I was always a bit maladjusted at school, and even in counselling they asked if I respected my my teachers, to which I replied "Everyone deserves some respect, even a newborn baby". At age about ten I had coyly said something they totally missed, which was that they hadn't earned any respect beyond that. I was in a family that was argumentative, and I would say quite intelligent, but not mean nor vindictive. I can tell if someone is lying (in person) almost before they actually do it.

They did not know who they were playing with. In kindergarden, the teacher said to count as high as I could. I responded "Are you sure ?". She said yes and when I got beyond 100 or so I was asked to quit. I had given her fair warning, I don't just have a bunch of numbers memorized, I know how the system works. I was worse than little Johnnie in that respect, in the same classroom she told me to make a letter A on the blackboard. I said "What kind, cursive or printed, capital or not ?", to which she replied anyway I could. So I "made" a capital print letter A, and she said it was backwards. I replied "It can't be backward it is symmetrical".

And if you think that is something, just imagine what happened by the time I was at a grade level where I was allowed to take electronics. I was also a math assistant for a time. Other parts of school turned me off. Highly regulated sports, I was used to wrestling with farm boys. They eventually let me go to a place called Cleveland Urban Learning Community. Unfortunately while there I ran into another pothead and had some really good shit. So good in fact that we both got thrown out. My choice was to go back to regular school or not. I chose to work. I persued the fields of study that I chose, and it was only later that I learned much about grammar and composition. Not quite to this day, but during my tenure at CM I have still had to call Mom and find out how to express this or that. One time I had to call to find out how to spell the word 'ecstasy', but that was a bit before CM. Although I had read the word numerous times, I just never paid it enough attention to remember how to spell it.

So I am against this rigidly structured mechanical education which is compulsory in these days. It produces little in the way of true competence or inventiveness. I see memorization as treated more important than problem solving abilities in most cases. Many may disagree with this part; I believe it is futile to teach an uninterested student history at any age. Memorize the states, in what war did some guy die ? All a bunch of shit to clog up the mind.

In regular highschool I fooled them. Yes I went to school, for like a half a day. I could cut with impunity. I learned the secret, just never ever, from day one, ever go go to homeroom ! Yes ideedy, that was the trick. I could attnd when I felt like it it and my absences were reported into the wild blue somewhere. I neve got a truant notice until we had to move, and a new school was involved. Somehow they caught me. To say the least, I was not there long. No matter what they did they could never control me. In HS before CULC, I actually had a student job in the AV dept. We would show the movies and stuff, handle the equipment used in the "educational" process and so forth. I learned skills, from repairing things to splicing films that had broken. I even got a paycheck from the school ! But I did what I wanted and went where I wanted.

It may sound wrong at first, but I believe that young students should be allowed to direct their own educational path. Do away with diplomas as we know them and seperate them into categories. This one is no good in math and that one is no good in this or that, and so forth. Courses could be offered to fill the voids, to 'round out' so to speak, a "full" diploma. By the time I was eighteen I was maing as much money as my Mother, and yes of course I come from a broken home. We were poor enough, I gave her half my takehome pay, which was a deal we made regarding my quitting school. Even at that, I always had money for gas, whatever I wanted. And yes I was driving before legal age. That is something which leaves me in a gray area, things were different then, you could get away with it. I could never agree to it in today's society, but back then we had alot more freedom. One time I got got stopped, and when we went to get my car out of impound I drove it home, still too young to legally drive ! But we all knew that they didn't know that.

Today things are different, much different. Well not that much, we did get sued for a bit over $353,000 because of my antics. We got a very good lawyer and took care of it. The olman said "I've been served more papers than this". My Parents made me pay the settlement, but after our lawyer got into it that was two grand in payments. I paid it off in a couple years. I was still wreckless, but maybe not as much. That is really one time I did hurt someone who did not hurt me or try to, and I confined my antics in the car to more remote locations. My craziest stunts I would pull alone, after I knew for sure it all worked, then people would almost piss their pants in my car, but they still got in. Yes we were an adventurous lot to sat the least, at least those who would get in.

Academically, I was losing interest in TV, even the shows I liked, I preferred to read. I always had a really good stereo too, that was a must. With all that money I had a laid out room, and one apt. we moved into it was seperated from the rest of the suite, so I had privacy. That is where I learned alot about drugs and all that, and we could JAM !

All in all, the point is that life taught me more than school. If school would've taught me I would probably be in really bad shape right now.

However now we live in a society where the Parents do not teach and are literally unable to afford these opportunities. Opportunities like figuring out how to fix your own car when you break down a long way from home, and nobody knows where you are and cellphones do not yet exist. That is education, in spades. I always had a spare set of points, and my car had two batteries in it, but that was to start it because the compression was so high. I wanted to be footloose and fancy free and I was. Take off Friday and head for the sticks, no show no call. Just show up Monday at work. Call ME on the carpet, wait a minute, I am not even on the clock here, I work on commision. Sorry I made more than your "top guy" last week, but you won't even pay me by the hour, let alone a salary, so you are out nothing, so what ? You want to talk about this all day or you want me to go get busy and work ?

Guess what the answer was. One time a boss said "You act like you are doing us a favor coming in to work" to which I replied "Ain't I ?". Momma didn't raise any fools here. I tried to be polite as possible, when I told my current boss that his people skills were not that good. A few times he copped an attitude and put customers off, but within minutes I had them practically eating out of my hand. I tried to tell him, but I defer to his judgement because it is his business. As long as I get my money I am less unhappy. Everything is fine.

Do they teach this in any school at any level ? Just what do they teach in school ? Conformance. Well Eli Whitney, Henry Ford, and alot of other people did not conform. To conform is to be the norm. We used to know already as Ross Perot said it "There is more money in computer chips than potato chips". We used to be a nation of individualists working together, now it seems we are conformists working apart.

And that is what I mean. What provided the springboard to the former greatness of this country was not socialist and not communist in nature. It was individualism. To play with a chemistry set instead of baseball, which I consider a total waste of time. After all isn't it called a pastime ? I could almost see football and got into it for a while, but grew tired of it.

Anyway, in a book I wrote, in a near utopian world I created from my own mind, this method was adopted. In that fictional world, everyone was educated to the best of their ability. If they lacked high intelligence, because of that, they would have to work harder physically to maintain a household but one person could do it, right now you can't unless you got one of those really sweet jobs it takes connections to get. In my manufactured world, leaders were chosen properly, and considered themselves servants of the people. They thought things out carefully, did what was best for the country and could 'show their work' so to speak. A bit different than today ya think ?

If you want to speak of education let's talk about universities. Alot of people don't know it but Harvard and Yale are second rate schools at best. Thinlk I am kidding ? Look into it. Look at the entry requirements. Look in the Humor section for the accounts of a travel agent who took a call from a US senator who wanted to take a bus to Hawaii. Beam me up Scotty, and they locked up the guy who used to say that. They disrespected him because he would wear cheasp suits ot congress. And he was framed, and I know how they did it.

This is our world, and it doesn't look like we are making too much progress taking it back. And you wonder why I am not afraid to leave it (Health and Safety : Another thyroid question). It isn't fair, I could go out in a blaze of glory, and plant a false flag and start alot of shit, why don't I ? I have a Mother who has forgiven me for more shit than any ten cows could produce, and I do not want to see her outlive her offspring. But even after she passes, do I want to leave my sister all alone ? Other than that I don't really care all that much. We are going to hell in a handbasket, and I bet even it was made in China. So I have to die last ? It's just not fair I tell you, it's just not fair.

CM people are among he best people. Have ideas sometimes, things like this. But when it comes to fixing this society, a strange silence seems to creep in. I know why, we don't have the answers. I pride myself on my problem soling ability, and I invented the term "omnidirectional thinking" and possibly the process itself. That is my job, and I can do it with sufficient information. But the woes of the the world, even with all of the information I doubt I could do it. Some things are unsolvable. Some things that have already been done, many before our time are not undoable. There are indeed unsolvable problems, and we are so deep, it does not even require a paradox, we have just gone too far, and time is unidirectional.

Someone prove me wrong here, I would consider it encouragement.

T

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/20/2009 5:57:30 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

Hi Tim,

We have pulled our son from the public schools and will start home school this fall with an online private academy. For us, it is the Soledad prison like socialization program of bullying, fights, threats, weapons and the watered down educational standards that made us pull the plug here in CA.

The experience you have had on the higher education level is just like ours. Administration really pushing us to "pass" students, no matter what it takes. It is all about the tuition money, nobody cares if they are completely unprepared, just move them along.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Term,

In the 70s, a movement began to stress the importance of a child's self-esteem. It's nonsense, of course, but it's the mainstream approach to this day. "That's OK, Johnny, you don't have to do this--I understand that you're not good enough" is patronizing, not self-esteem, and here's a big surprise--kids would rather not work at stuff, and will get out of it if they can. Duh.

This habit and pattern continues into college. What are these kids supposed to do when they graduate? Populate and spread the new culture, I suppose.

Add to that our litigious society. When I had trouble with a teacher, my parents visited the teacher and I got in trouble. Today, the parents sue the school. Consequently (at college too), the focus becomes avoiding lawsuits and making everyone happy.

There are no standards anymore. I taught at a Jesuit college for two years. God forbid princess get anything lower than a B, and she'd probably cry about that. The emphasis was on "we teach the entire person," which is code for letting them float around for four years, doing little but drinking, and then let them go work for Daddy's company.

It's dismissal, and getting worse. The will to fix it isn't there--not from administration, parents or students. Frustrated faculty sooner or later settle into the world they're forced to inhabit, or quit for other pursuits.

Welcome to America.



hey Chewsie, i did the same with my son, pulled him out in the sixth grade to homeschool. and it was the best thing we could have done. i wish you luck!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
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