RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (Full Version)

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Arpig -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/9/2009 11:52:32 PM)

But what if the Muslims are right? Where does your Christian life leave you then?



DanaYielding -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/9/2009 11:59:18 PM)

Then Allah will judge my deeds, and since i do not consider myself an enemy of Islam for i have not worshipped a deity contrary then i shall walk the narrow bridge over hell onto paradise



Brain -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 12:20:04 AM)

As I debate this with you I'm reminded of a saying my mother used to tell me when I was a child. She said, "You can knock on a deaf mans' door all you want, he won't answer it."



Brain -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 12:28:53 AM)

I guess if you're in Paradise maybe you will be one of the 60 virgins promised to the suicide bombers. I can't believe people believe this ridiculous crap about heaven and paradise.

Sam Harris Religion is a failed science
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkTTCgECCoc



DanaYielding -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 12:36:27 AM)

Its the Muslim Faith, not me. The Muslim God will judge according to the balance of good deeds, versus bad, and if worthy will gain paradise. Now that being said, i very much doubt i would be, or could be, a virgin for the martyrs.
Both Christianity and Islam are monotheistic religions. Muslim believe God is a singular, not a trinity.



gman992 -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 12:37:40 AM)

Is it God who are saying this, or imperfect men or women who wrongly interrupt what he said?



DanaYielding -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 12:40:54 AM)

Good point gman, which leads directly back to my post #40.



Brain -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 1:01:47 AM)

Muslim Family In America Disowns 8 Year Old Girl For Being Raped

An 8 year old girl from a Liberian community was blamed for being raped right here in America. Something common among Muslims in general. Where is love for a human being in Islam if there is none for one's very own little girl?
Some Muslim God, nice guy, not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkloZkZB_a0



FirmhandKY -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 5:09:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Anyone who worships God has neurological problems or is on drugs or is stupid.

I am even more firm in my belief that I have identified what you are.

Firm



thishereboi -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 5:25:31 AM)

fr
You don't have to worship anyone or anything you don't want to worship. If you feel the bible is wrong, then don't read it. If you don't like the way the church down the road carries on, then don't go there. It's simple really. If someone else wants to worship a god that you don't agree with, then they have every right to do so and you have every right to not go along with them.

Now there are some posters on here who feel so strongly that any kind of worship is wrong, that they will post link after link trying to prove their point. If you want you can click on those links and investigate them, you can. Or you can just ignore them and move on.

Either way it is all up to you and what your beliefs lead you to do.



VanityFix -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 5:57:30 AM)

If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him?
i see faith (any really) as a tool people can use to feel good and trust in somthing outside of their own life. as such one would want to have a good sane figure to beleive in, worship of an evil one would lead to alot of destructive thinking and stress.

also OP, your name kicks ass




pyroaquatic -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 6:49:45 AM)

Everything in those disciplines brings me a little closer to God.

Just because I am spiritual does not mean I have an excuse to be lax in my scientific discipline.



TheHeretic -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 7:02:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Anyone who worships God has neurological problems or is on drugs or is stupid.

I am even more firm in my belief that I have identified what you are.

Firm


Bingo.  And a rather nasty example of the breed.  There is a nice ritual of deliverance from such down at the lower left corner [;)]



MarcEsadrian -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 7:29:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Given these facts (fact based on the holy books of the religions that support him), it can be argued that this God is either insane or evil.



Concepts like these used to engage me more in my teens and early twenties, until I arrived at the realization that, logically, the question isn't worth any more time or energy.



TreasureKY -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 7:48:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I'd seriously bring your knowledge and understanding of the Bible into question.


Ok.....let's be a bit more specific. What part of my statement do you find incorrect and therefore lacking in knowledge or understanding? Is it the genocide thing? Is it the mass killings and torture to prove a point to a celestial debating partner? Could it be the doctrine that if you do not believe in, worship, and beg, you will be damned into eternal torment in hell? Which part haven't you read in the bible? Please tell me which one's you doubt and I'll be glad to quote you chapter and verse.

I just happen to suggest examining the logic of "God is holy and good. God did X. Therefore X is holy and good". I ask you to think of this logic instead: "X is holy and good. Not X is not holy or good. Therefore, God's choice of X or Not X determines whether he is holy or good". And when you start examining things that way, then you come up with some interesting possibilities.


I'm sorry, but even a good night's sleep doesn't make your second paragraph completely comprehensible.  I can see that you're struggling with logic, and I'm not surprised.  I'm not quite sure how to help you in that respect.

As for your first paragraph, you also seem to have a problem with logic.  But in this case, you're attempting to draw me into your logical fallacy known as argumentum ad ignorantiam.  You've seeded the minimal truth in your statements with derogatory and negative descriptors, then challenged me to prove them wholly untrue.  Sorry, I'm not playing that game.

All I can say is that your questions about Elohim are not uncommon.  If you are truly interested in understanding, here are a few links to get you started:

Is Our God an Angry and Vengeful God?

God is Wrathful, Vengeful, Jealous, and Angry every day--and you want me to have a relationship with Him?!

Is the God of the Old Testament Different From the God of the New?

Why is God so different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament?

What about this Old Testament "Killer God?"



Arpig -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 8:11:44 AM)

quote:

As I debate this with you I'm reminded of a saying my mother used to tell me when I was a child. She said, "You can knock on a deaf mans' door all you want, he won't answer it."
You're not debating anything. You said that study of  astronomy, physics and evolutionary biology would disprove the existence of God. I reject that hypothesis.

Again, I challenge you to give me one single aspect of any of those disciplines that actually disproves the existence of God.

I really don't expect you to take up the challenge, not just because you have a history of just ignoring or ducking direct questions, but because those scientific disciplines have nothing to do with the existence, or lack thereof of a God.




Arpig -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 8:15:58 AM)

quote:

60 virgins promised to the suicide bombers.
Its 72 virgins,and they are actually houri, which are not the same thing at all really. Please Brain, try to get your facts at least close to correct.



Monkeyontuesday -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 8:18:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I'd seriously bring your knowledge and understanding of the Bible into question.


Ok.....let's be a bit more specific. What part of my statement do you find incorrect and therefore lacking in knowledge or understanding? Is it the genocide thing? Is it the mass killings and torture to prove a point to a celestial debating partner? Could it be the doctrine that if you do not believe in, worship, and beg, you will be damned into eternal torment in hell? Which part haven't you read in the bible? Please tell me which one's you doubt and I'll be glad to quote you chapter and verse.

I just happen to suggest examining the logic of "God is holy and good. God did X. Therefore X is holy and good". I ask you to think of this logic instead: "X is holy and good. Not X is not holy or good. Therefore, God's choice of X or Not X determines whether he is holy or good". And when you start examining things that way, then you come up with some interesting possibilities.


I'm sorry, but even a good night's sleep doesn't make your second paragraph completely comprehensible.  I can see that you're struggling with logic, and I'm not surprised.  I'm not quite sure how to help you in that respect.

As for your first paragraph, you also seem to have a problem with logic.  But in this case, you're attempting to draw me into your logical fallacy known as argumentum ad ignorantiam.  You've seeded the minimal truth in your statements with derogatory and negative descriptors, then challenged me to prove them wholly untrue.  Sorry, I'm not playing that game.

All I can say is that your questions about Elohim are not uncommon.  If you are truly interested in understanding, here are a few links to get you started:

Is Our God an Angry and Vengeful God?

God is Wrathful, Vengeful, Jealous, and Angry every day--and you want me to have a relationship with Him?!

Is the God of the Old Testament Different From the God of the New?

Why is God so different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament?

What about this Old Testament "Killer God?"



I look forward to checking out those links; thank you.

I study religion as well and am actually aiming to get my doctorate in religious studies with a specialty in the formation of Christianity. Obviously I don't know nearly enough to debate with the learned scholars in the field who have published scores of books, but I will say I enjoy these discussions quite a bit and thank the OP for posting.

Also, I feel that if the discussion can remain toned down and for the sake of intellectual discussion, there shouldn't be an issue. I feel that some have taken the OP the wrong way and I didn't see any attack in his comments, but I suppose I could be mistaken.

I look forward to jumping in with both feet when I have the time to do so :D



Arpig -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 8:19:19 AM)

quote:

Is it God who are saying this, or imperfect men or women who wrongly interrupt what he said?
Well the Bible is supposedly the infallible inspired word of God. Its supposed to be correct in every aspect, so I would have to say that the imperfect interpretation by humans argument is out the window. What it says is quite plainly worded, and it is supposed to be perfect in every word,so apparently all the mayhem is what God wanted.



BoiJen -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 8:19:46 AM)

TreasureKY,

I only read your last link. So this post is in reference to that particular link.

The essay goes great lengths to not actually answer the question put forth. At least that's how I experienced the essay. The essay does not address the sudden disappearance of Sodom and Gomorrah or His actual wrath as it pertains to the Egyptian Pharaoh or His reaction/actions in reference to Adam and Eve and their sons (all sons...generations on and on). There is wrath in the sense of anger and hurtful action. Exiling Adam and Eve from paradise on Earth was hurtful and purposeful and not a "natural and logical consequence" as the author of the essay tries to point out. (For those who didn't read, the author referenced the 10 commandments as set of rules to live by in which God does not say "I'll kill you if you don't do these things", rather "your live will be easier if you follow these rules because of the natural and logical consequences that come with violating these rules".)

God is all knowing according to the essay. God KNEW Adam was going to eat the apple. God KNEW Eve would be tempted and would cave. If God was a just God (literal interpretation here) why would He even leave the issue of the tree of knowledge? Why leave these things to tempt His "children"? Leave them free will, no problem, but why set them up? It's like leaving a hot pan on the ground next to a toddler and telling the toddler not to touch it cuz it will burn them. It's setting that child up for failure. It's neglect at best and malicious action at worst. And it's incredibly painful spiritually for anyone to struggle with this kind of concept of the God they worship.

Not only does this interpretation of God leaving us to "our own devices" fuck us up a little. We're then told, that while we may not get it so bad in this life as a consequence of poor choices, we'll get an eternity of shit storms for it. That's a pretty crappy hand. Now, while I agree with most of the 10 commandments and think they're great guidelines to live by, these are not the only rules we're left with. God's rules don't stop there, if one actually finishes reading the bible. More rules come, they're just not spelled out on a rule sheet like the commandments.

And, finally, I want to point out something that really tweaked my butt...

"PLEASE NOTE: Satan CANNOT do anything that God does not specifically allow!"
I don't get it. I just don't get this statement. According to the essay, Satan is the root of our fuck ups. It's not really us, it's Satan, because Satan manipulates us. By following the above statement from the author, I'm lead to believe that Satan is not "evil" rather is simply a tool God uses so that He can play favorites with us. It just sucks. I can't get past this statement. I really can't. If this can be explained to me in a way the exemplifies the "Loving God" of Christianity, then please do explain it to me, for now the author of the final essay only made a really bad case for literal interpretation and the general acceptance of what Christianity is.
boi



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