RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him?

RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (Full Version)

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Monkeyontuesday -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 2:23:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Well the Bible is supposedly the infallible inspired word of God. Its supposed to be correct in every aspect The OT isn't, and the gospels have clearly been edited. Yes, gentlemen, quite a few people have argued the gospels are the same since conception, which is, as you pointed out, blatantly false. Not only do we not have the original manuscript, but the ones we do clearly change over time. For example, the tale of the repentant prostitute of the NT (“let him without sin cast the first stone”) was not included until centuries after the book itself was written. That is just one example, and there are many of them. Bart Ehrman is an expert on this subject with “Misquoting Jesus” being a very good text for that particular topic. Re: brimstone. Don’t quote me on this, but it’s my understanding this imagery really only came into common practice when Dante’s “Divine Comedy” came into the culture. It is my understanding that the true punishment was, as Darcy put it, separation from your loved ones and the love of God. Regarding Nih and free will… Yeah, I kind of agree with you. It’s still something I sort of grapple with as they seem to be opposites. Btw, I <3 your posts :D “There is no assumption. If there is omniscience and if there is a non-consensual punishment dynamic, this deity is a sadist. If there is no omniscience, he's just another fallible sentient creature.” -- Nih I concur. It is my belief that the God of the OT and NT are different (the Gnostics held this belief as well to such an extent they believed the god of the OT were 2 angels who fell when Lucifer was kicked out). I used to claim very devout Christianity and this particular issue really rocked my world. If I assume the God of the 2 books is the same personage and a singular deity – as opposed to a polytheistic approach – then why did God become so… Zen in the NT? Did he mature or evolve? And if so, why and how? If God is not, as Christians state, never-changing and completely constant, how is he any different than a kid with an ant farm?

SpinnerofTales -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:32:06 PM)
Ok...let me make one try to get this back on track. My initial question was not whether God is good or evil or even if he exists. Those are subjects that I have seen argued ad infinitum. My question is this: If God is evil, insane or otherwise not wholesome and positive, but did create the world and does have the power to mete out eternal punishment, is that a good reason in and of itself to worship him? That's a question I have yet to see answered.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:37:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Ok...let me make one try to get this back on track. My initial question was not whether God is good or evil or even if he exists. Those are subjects that I have seen argued ad infinitum. My question is this: If God is evil, insane or otherwise not wholesome and positive, but did create the world and does have the power to mete out eternal punishment, is that a good reason in and of itself to worship him? I answered it. Yes, it's absolutely a good reason to worship him. If the creator of the universe is something we would call "immoral", then morality as we understand it is utterly useless - and then we're stuck back in a nihilistic realpolitik sort of situation. And one of the first rules of realpolitik is, if you're powerless, learn to bend over and suck cock. Of course, realize that the Calvinist God of Job can still send you to an "eternity of infinite torment" on a whim, even if you do everything He asks - but "eternity of infinite torment" is so overwhelming of a motivator, that you'd be stupid not to bend over and take whatever abuses he heaps on you, out of hope for any non-zero chance that he can be reasoned with or bargained with or placated into showing mercy - no matter how infinitesimally small that chance might be. Because hey, it's better than an eternity of infinite fucking torment, right?

SpinnerofTales -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:38:53 PM)
quote: lol... Perhaps it's just too late in the evening for me to decipher this, but at this point in time I'm tempted to call your knowledge and understanding of the English language into question, too. Maybe tomorrow I'll give it another try. ORIGINAL: TreasureKY I do hope you give it another try, Treasure...I want to know which of my examples of the biblical claims of god's behavior, i.e. genocide, torture of the innocent, condemnation of the majority of human kind to eternal torment, you find unsupported by the very bible that is our only source of knowledge of the God we are discussing.

DanaYielding -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:39:23 PM)
Let's presuppose an event. A man with a gun has you cornered, you are left to the mercy of the gunman, "Worship me or I will kill you." he says. Is there still not a choice for the victim to make?. Some would say the gunman is worthy, in that instant, to be worshipped. He alone holds your destiny but he does not have the choice, he only acts as determined by your choice to worship him or not.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:41:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DanaYielding Let's presuppose an event. A man with a gun has you cornered, you are left to the mercy of the gunman, "Worship me or I will kill you." he says. Is there still not a choice for the victim to make?. Some would say the gunman is worthy, in that instant, to be worshipped. He alone holds your destiny but he does not have the choice, he only acts as determined by your choice to worship him or not. but that's not the scenario, at all. It's not "worship me or I'll kill you", because death is still an out. It's "worship me or I'll shoot you, let you scream and sob and bleed, then patch you up painfully, then shoot you again. Over, and over, and over." You don't get out that easily.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:43:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth It's not "worship me or I'll kill you", because death is still an out. It's "worship me or I'll shoot you, let you scream and sob and bleed, then patch you up painfully, then shoot you again. Over, and over, and over." You don't get out that easily. Actually, scratch that. It's "worship me or I'll grab your six-year-old daughter, force her to look into your eyes, pour kerosene all over her and then light her on fire in front of you - then put her out and do it all over again as many times as I feel like. Then we'll start over with your other kids until you understand the error of your ways." I'd describe other things to do to whatever you love, but constraints of the board policy prevent me. I really don't think you people understand what eternity of infinite torment means, here.

Starbuck09 -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:43:28 PM)
Whyis ia good reason to woship him though Ialabaoth? Morality as we understand it would not be rendered useless if such a god existed in fact in many ways it would make it more valuable. Or morality is what we have chosen whether this hypothetical deity agrees with it or not. If you're only choices are an eternity of torment or becoming a plaything of such a being then you would be living on borrowed time in any case, if you had to spend eternity with it sooner or later you would displease it for whatever reason and then you would be no better off you willl just have grabbed a fistfull of time for abandoning your principles. And eternity is a long time especially one in torment there will always be hope.

DanaYielding -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:44:21 PM)
That's fair Ia, still, there is choice albeit one that no one in their right mind would make.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:47:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DanaYielding That's fair Ia, still, there is choice albeit one that no one in their right mind would make. Ah, but this is God, here. If you have sufficient willpower to be able to make that choice, God can simply edit out that willpower such that you're utterly crushed. And he can do so after the fact, too. He can force you to regret your decision for every moment of eternity. Heck, he can even force you to make the decision, then go back and make it feel like you were never forced in the first place. Who are you to say how God can play with his things? As Job says, "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?"

SpinnerofTales -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:47:55 PM)
quote: If you're only choices are an eternity of torment or becoming a plaything of such a being then you would be living on borrowed time in any case, if you had to spend eternity with it sooner or later you would displease it for whatever reason and then you would be no better off ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Actually, Starbuck, you are on faulty theological grounds there. According to Judeo-Christian doctrine, your eternal fate is decided in the mere 100 years (tops) that you exist upon this earth. That 100 years or less determines whether you go to paradise where you are welcomed for all eternity or tortured for all eternity. Again, according to the doctrines, nothing your immortal soul did before nor could do after that relative moment on earth has any bearing on what is done to you for all time.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:49:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Whyis ia good reason to woship him though Ialabaoth? Morality as we understand it would not be rendered useless if such a god existed in fact in many ways it would make it more valuable. Or morality is what we have chosen whether this hypothetical deity agrees with it or not. If you're only choices are an eternity of torment or becoming a plaything of such a being then you would be living on borrowed time in any case, if you had to spend eternity with it sooner or later you would displease it for whatever reason and then you would be no better off you willl just have grabbed a fistfull of time for abandoning your principles. And eternity is a long time especially one in torment there will always be hope. It's a good reason to worship Him beause He says so. And if you disagree? Well, He's God - what the hell are you going to do about it?

Starbuck09 -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:54:52 PM)
That is true spinner according to that particular doctrine. However it seems to me that if God allowed the angels free will to choose him or not then sooner or later after judgement day when the mortal coil has run it's course that such a being would out of boredom choose to play such a gambit again. Granted that's my own personal interpretation of that particular concept of God but my mind is all I have. That and or faith.

pyroaquatic -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:55:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales My question is this: If God is evil, insane or otherwise not wholesome and positive, but did create the world and does have the power to mete out eternal punishment, is that a good reason in and of itself to worship him? That's a question I have yet to see answered. God has no need to punish, humans do that to themselves easily enough. Does a cell know it is part of a madman? No, but it still functions regardless of punishment. In my life I know for sure I am going to choose the routes of safety. If "God" decides to strike a tree on top of the hill I am most likely NOT going to be there. My cognition will calculate probabilities of the punishing abilities of a lightning bolt and choose shelter of a better nature. Closer? No? What is eternal to us may be a blink in the eyes of God-if God does indeed have eyes to observe the reality that pours forth from God. What is the one question that God cannot answer?

DanaYielding -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:56:10 PM)
OK Ia, cant argue with that. It is not worship if there is no choice. Worship implies an adoring reverence to, a celebration of and rendering of honor. Not only the placing of superiority.

Starbuck09 -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 4:58:07 PM)
You're not going to do anything aldabaoth except choose not to and suffer the consequences. Just as choosing to prostrate yourself wll have it's own consequences. The thing about physical torment is that after a while it is transitoryo matter ow appaling one would hink hell would be in many wways more cerebal as you have alreadyouched on eternally watching your mistakes. I wonder how after an eternity of abandoning what you believe to be right one would feel? Perhaps you would have created your very own hell for yoursel in heaven?

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 5:01:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 You're not going to do anything aldabaoth except choose not to and suffer the consequences. Just as choosing to prostrate yourself wll have it's own consequences. The thing about physical torment is that after a while it is transitoryo matter ow appaling one would hink hell would be in many wways more cerebal as you have alreadyouched on eternally watching your mistakes. I wonder how after an eternity of abandoning what you believe to be right one would feel? Perhaps you would have created your very own hell for yoursel in heaven? well, certainly torment in Hell can't merely be physical; we'd acclimate to it too quickly, or merely go stark raving mad. No, I think what we're positing here is a deity who can simply craft our consciousness into a perfect torment-receptor, and then just let us loose to suffer.

eyesopened -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 5:02:36 PM)
I have read the bible many, many times. I have never read where god threated anyone who did not worship him. The old testament deals with god and the hebrew people, not all of humanity. It honestly wasn't written for everybody. However, I see examples of human beings being incredibly cruel to other human beings and blaming God. The bible also shows a god of incredible love, compassion, help. refuge, hope and peace. It's odd that the vast majority of the bible speaks of God's compassion but folks just like to dwell on the times the hebrews were bloodthirsty warmongers. The God I know, through reading the bible, tells me the key to it all is to seek. Ask questions, look outside the box, beyond the confines of religion, beyond the confines of atheism, to look beyond everything, question everything. The God of the bible I read, loves me, wants me to know It, wants me to see Itself in everything, and has taught me that to seek is to find, to question is to know, to surrender is to be free. My God accept that my form of worship is simply to live well and be happy because then I am in harmony with Its will. I have learned alot about God by being a submissive. I undestand that if I were to write an account of my relationship with my Master, the majority of people would accuse me of stupidly following a cruel control-freak who thinks it entertaining to torture me. They would not see the relationship beyond the phyiscal and even then they would accuse me of at best being in the throes of the Stockholm Syndrome. It's not so simple, it's not always what you see on the surface. But I've noticed that the anti-god zealots are equally as blind as the religious zealots.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 5:04:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DanaYielding OK Ia, cant argue with that. It is not worship if there is no choice. Worship implies an adoring reverence to, a celebration of and rendering of honor. Not only the placing of superiority. In which case, any being to whom the trait of "Omnipotence" may be proscribed, simply cannot be worshiped. It's a logical impossibility to "worship" a being whose very existence allows it to modify such concepts as reverence, celebration and honor. And before someone throws out the "but what if it chooses not to" argument, understand that for any being to whom the trait of "Omnipotence" may be proscribed, the trait of "choice" is necessarily precluded. If a being is truly Omnipotent, than what happens - by logical definition - IS* its choice*.

Starbuck09 -> RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worship Him? (8/10/2009 5:05:46 PM)
And if that is so Ialdabaoth th you would be damned either way. On he one hand by god to hell for eternity, on the other to heaven at the price of everything you believe is good and right again for all of eternity. They sound in the end remarkably similar.

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