RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (Full Version)

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NihilusZero -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 11:25:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

At the age she was at the crime, she had less than a year until her eighteenth birthday.

And when she committed the crime that was supposedly worthy of forever being branded a sex offender, the boy in question was just weeks away from being an age that would not have qualified her as such under back-asswards laws.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Even the article says this lady was "not the most organized" individual, and missed her appointments.  Anyone on probation has at least some idea that those appointments are kind of important if you'd like to stay out of jail.

Like when they are young teenagers committing a normal pubescent act that becomes their first offense? You're essentially saying she merits a ludicrous punishment because of inattentiveness and naivete that is par for the course at that age.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Reading the whole piece, as slanted as the publication was attempting to make this law, it goes on to read of a story where this law was completely effective, such as the case of "Mike" who was 22 and having sex with a gal who was too young to drive a car.  Another example was a 27 year old who was also having sex with a girl who was barely old enough to have a learner's permit.  In those cases, the law obviously works.

It works, again, when it's protecting kids, not branding them as criminals. This isn't about teaching kids the consequences of their actions. This isn't about making an example of her to kids warning of the mistakes of violating antiquated laws based on puritanical morality (which is the only reason what she did even qualified as "sodomy" at the time).

If these laws cannot do the job they're supposed to and/or if we are not competent enough to effect them in ways where they do what was intended without harming innocent children, then we're fools for even having them in the first place.




sweetsub1957 -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 11:51:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

WOW.  I'm thinking this situation should never have happened

Wait...are we wagging our finger at risky sexual behavior? Any of us?



I apologize if I was finger-wagging.  I only meant to make an observation that it was unfortunate that it happened at all.  Sorry.  :)




LadyPact -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 12:04:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

At the age she was at the crime, she had less than a year until her eighteenth birthday.

And when she committed the crime that was supposedly worthy of forever being branded a sex offender, the boy in question was just weeks away from being an age that would not have qualified her as such under back-asswards laws.

Yes.  Those weeks still put him in the category of age that the law was designed for.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Even the article says this lady was "not the most organized" individual, and missed her appointments.  Anyone on probation has at least some idea that those appointments are kind of important if you'd like to stay out of jail.
Like when they are young teenagers committing a normal pubescent act that becomes their first offense? You're essentially saying she merits a ludicrous punishment because of inattentiveness and naivete that is par for the course at that age.

I'm not buying the naive part for a bit.  Are you trying to claim here that, at 17, this girl didn't have any idea that giving a fellow student a blow job in public would warrant a punishment of some kind?  Please introduce Me to the first 17 year old in a public school who is of sound mind who isn't aware that they shouldn't be engaging in sexual acts during class.

The punishment wouldn't even have applied had she bothered herself to follow her probation.  Not only did she have no respect for the law, she had no respect for the consequences when she broke it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Reading the whole piece, as slanted as the publication was attempting to make this law, it goes on to read of a story where this law was completely effective, such as the case of "Mike" who was 22 and having sex with a gal who was too young to drive a car.  Another example was a 27 year old who was also having sex with a girl who was barely old enough to have a learner's permit.  In those cases, the law obviously works.
It works, again, when it's protecting kids, not branding them as criminals. This isn't about teaching kids the consequences of their actions. This isn't about making an example of her to kids warning of the mistakes of violating antiquated laws based on puritanical morality (which is the only reason what she did even qualified as "sodomy" at the time).

If these laws cannot do the job they're supposed to and/or if we are not competent enough to effect them in ways where they do what was intended without harming innocent children, then we're fools for even having them in the first place.
It seems to Me that, in the majority of the article, in fact, the law is working.  I'll bet she never gives a 15 year old a blow job again.  I'll bet if she ever commits any other crime, she'll sure make those probation appointments.




TazDevil -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 12:46:40 PM)

I going to have to take the two links here and post it in fetlife BDSM and the law from




sweetsub1957 -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 1:42:31 PM)

Although I was not trying to wag my finger earlier, I must admit that when LadyPact said " I'm not buying the naive part for a bit.  Are you trying to claim here that, at 17, this girl didn't have any idea that giving a fellow student a blow job in public would warrant a punishment of some kind?" and "The punishment wouldn't even have applied had she bothered herself to follow her probation.  Not only did she have no respect for the law, she had no respect for the consequences when she broke it," I absolutely agree with Her 100%.  At the age of 17, to say I was naive would've been a gross understatement.....I was a never-even-been-kissed virgin who'd never even seen a real live penis and had no sex ed whatsoever, besides what the 1970s school systems had to offer, and even I knew better than to do that.  And I'm also sure that when she was put on probation she was instructed on how to follow the rules thereof.  I will continue to say, as I did earlier, that it's very unfortunate that it had to happen at all, but I also agree with LadyPact.  And, had it been my child when he was 15, he would've have hell to pay AND the older child would have had too.  Okay, my rant is now over & I'm fully prepared for the negative comments to come my way.  Oh well.




marie2 -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 2:09:15 PM)

In a case of a 17 yr old having sex with a willing 16 yr old, I think it's very extreme for the participant(s)  to get stuck with a record of being a sexual offender for the rest of their lives, but this case has some other little complications to it...

First off, she did it in a public classroom in front of other kids.  A 17 yr old knows better than to do that.  It's possible that they enjoyed doing it in front of others, humiliating and embaressing others, or maybe they were just being smart asses.  Not sure what the punishment or charge should have been for the act, but it went the way it went and she pleaded guilty...The part of this that jumps out to me is that she didn't answer to her parole meetings which makes the girl appear to not be taking her mistake seriously.  So, if she doesn't have any remorse about exposing other people to her sexual activities, and she doesn't take her restitution seriously, why would anyone think that she's going to make better choices in the future?  How does anyone know she won't repeat the same behavior?  What criteria do we use to differentiate between a youngster who simply made a poor judgement call from a youngster who is a sexual predator? 




NihilusZero -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 2:54:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm not buying the naive part for a bit.  Are you trying to claim here that, at 17, this girl didn't have any idea that giving a fellow student a blow job in public would warrant a punishment of some kind?

I'd wager she didn't have any idea that the adults who make the laws that affect her would be brainless enough to shove it down her throat in a situation clearly outside of the intent of what the laws were made for.

You're still stuck on punishing her for being: a) irreverent and disrespectful in a school setting, and b) insufficiently mature to properly follow the technical details of an exaggerated crime. Those 'violations' deserve a certain punishment, sure. Maybe weeks of school service as a janitor's assistant? Maybe plenty of community service? Maybe suspension or expulsion could be excusable.

A year in prison next to real criminals who have actually infringed on the freedoms and property of innocent people is downright dumb. Punishing someone for not observing the law merely because it is the law (without scrutiny of the law) is just circular reasoning. The laws are supposed to protect people, not condemn them based on how "moral" people are expected to act when they're not harming anyone else. And expecting children to, rank and file without fail, know about sexual laws when they are at an age presumed to be at or close to not capable of making mature sexual decisions is logically backwards.




zenny -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 3:07:34 PM)

Yes, because we ALL know that the law justifies the law.

How's that physical assault going for you?




Prinsexx -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 3:19:20 PM)

Should there be any confusion (about what i allow in my house):
This is the law as it stands un UK.

At the age of:

10 You have reached the age of criminal responsibility. In some serious offences, such as rape or murder, age is irrelevant (children under the age of 10 have been convicted of murder in the past)

12 You can buy a pet

12 You can see a 12A film unaccompanied at the cinema. You can also rent or buy a 12 rated video

13 You can work part-time, but the number of hours and the type of work you can do is restricted.

15 You can see category 15 films at the cinema or on video

16 You can work full-time after your official school leaving date

16 You can join the armed forces with parental consent

16 You can consent to have sex (whether you are straight, gay or bisexual) but, if your partner is under 16, you could be charged with sexual assault

16 You are able to live independently providing specific conditions are met

16 You can marry with parental consent

16 You can have beer, cider or wine at a table with a meal in a pub or hotel if you are accompanied by an adult. At 16 you may go up to the bar area with an adult but can only buy non- alcoholic drinks

16 You can apply for your own passport

16 You can be charged with cruelty to any child that is in your custody or charge

16 You can join most trade unions (it is possible to join some unions under 16)

16 You can ride a moped

16 You can buy a lottery ticket

17 You can hold a licence to drive most vehicles (apart from large goods vehicles or vehicles that carry more than eight passengers)

17 You can no longer have a care order made on you

18 You can purchase tobacco products

18 You are an adult in the eyes of the law. Criminal charges against you will be dealt with in the adult court, not the youth court

18 You can be tattooed

18 You can join the armed forces without parental consent

18 You can see category 18 films at cinema or on video

18 You can vote in a general or local election

18 You can serve on a jury

18 You can buy and drink alcohol

18 You can open a bank account or post office account without a parent's or guardian's signature

19 You remain entitled to free full-time education
21 You can become an MP, local councillor or a local mayor




cornflakegirl -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 3:59:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Should there be any confusion (about what i allow in my house):
This is the law as it stands un UK.

At the age of:
...


What does any of this have to do with this case involving sex laws in the US?




LadyPact -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 4:04:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

Yes, because we ALL know that the law justifies the law.

How's that physical assault going for you?



Sometimes, that "in reply to" feature can be a real pain.  I don't suppose you'd be interested in saying why this comment was made in reply to Me after other posters made comments?




zenny -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 4:32:15 PM)

Indeed I may.




Prinsexx -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 4:32:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Should there be any confusion (about what i allow in my house):
This is the law as it stands un UK.

At the age of:
...


What does any of this have to do with this case involving sex laws in the US?

It has nothing to do with sex laws in the US. But it has everything to do with attempting to superimpose an ideological stance upon opinion coming from th UK.




LadyPact -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 4:37:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

Indeed I may.


Please enlighten me.

ETA:  I don't pull this up often, but it might be worth mentioning here.

Questions regarding legal issues in reference to the BDSM scene are expected to arise from time to time. While discussion of these topics is somewhat acceptable, direct or veiled accusations against individuals is not.




cornflakegirl -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 4:41:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Should there be any confusion (about what i allow in my house):
This is the law as it stands un UK.

At the age of:
...


What does any of this have to do with this case involving sex laws in the US?

It has nothing to do with sex laws in the US. But it has everything to do with attempting to superimpose an ideological stance upon opinion coming from th UK.



No one is talking about what you do in your house or any ideology surrounding that. The discussion is sex laws and their application to teens living in the US under US law.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 4:48:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

Hello everybody,

I read recently an article in the last edition of The Economist that I got from a neighbouring boat. it is called "Unjust and ineffective" and is about the punition of sexual delicts in the USA. It quite upset me. One case of a woman is particulary disgusting: having as a teenager given a blow job to another one, but younger, she got convicted for "sodomy on a minor", is livelong registred in a sex offender online register... She could be as well branded on her forehead.

I have no qualm with taking out really dangerous criminals, but this offends my most basic sence of justice.

I also wonder, could this not happen to our community too?

I will not comment here any further, I have other duties for the next days, But I really recommend to read the article: it is chilling.
It is on The Economist web site, there is an editorial and the article is under

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14164614&CFID=73550468&CFTOKEN=68009113

I wish I could wish you a good reading

Kinky regards

Henry



(Seems to me someone got their facts a smidge skewed.  Sodomy of course....involves the butthole....and unless one of the parties was a real asshole....something's missing here).




cornflakegirl -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 4:56:10 PM)

Under US law blow jobs count as sodomy.




beargonewild -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 5:05:30 PM)

Legal definition of sodomy

The above link defines what is sodomy under the US legal system.




Prinsexx -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 5:05:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Should there be any confusion (about what i allow in my house):
This is the law as it stands un UK.

At the age of:
...


What does any of this have to do with this case involving sex laws in the US?

It has nothing to do with sex laws in the US. But it has everything to do with attempting to superimpose an ideological stance upon opinion coming from th UK.



No one is talking about what you do in your house or any ideology surrounding that. The discussion is sex laws and their application to teens living in the US under US law.

Thank you for clarifying that.




Sunnyfey -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 5:16:16 PM)

Oral sex is a class A felony?!!!!

Shit lock me up and throw away the key bitches.




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