RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (Full Version)

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zenny -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 5:18:22 PM)

By all means. Simply put, because I was responding to you.

I imagine the next question will be why and as I typically don't like to post-whore I'll just say it. Because both statements are succinct and when understood they have a synergistic effect. One makes an effective mockery of your position and the other being a nigh perfect analogy to illustrate the hypocrisy of it. The only thing better would have been to alter it to spousal abuse as that has approximately the same emotional charge that underage sex tends to elicit in the emotional. However, I don't care to check such things, hence it only being nigh perfect. I think this should be sufficient for any further curiosity you may have had.



LadyPact -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 5:42:25 PM)

Whether you care to feel as though you're a "post whore" on the subject or not, had I been able to ask you why you would throw an intended accusation out there on a public message board, I'd have certainly asked you privately.

Unlike what you attempted to insinuate about Me, I've never been charged with physical abuse.  If I had, and it is a very legitimate possibility since I engage in WIITWD, the answer would be relatively simple.  Plead guilty, and fulfill any terms of the sentence I was given.  That's not what the person in the article did.  She plead guilty, and then skipped some of her terms of the five years probation.  That's why she ended up facing some of the consequences that she did.

Even if she hadn't been convicted of the more serious charge because the boy was under 16, she'd have still faced prosecution for a sexual act in a public school.  I don't have any reason to believe that she'd have been any better about abiding by the terms of her probation for a lesser charge, so she most likely still would have ended up doing the jail time that was one of her consequences.



zenny -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 6:00:53 PM)

Stubborn as a mule I see. Oh well, don't get caught. That is all that separates you from that girl. A chilling thought, no? To be so misunderstood and the general population doesn't care. In fact, won't even think about it logically for a moment. Typically won't even consider they don't know all the facts. Will simply just condemn the act. It's a shame really, don't you agree?



LadyPact -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 6:41:11 PM)

Considering you're leaving out some huge differences, not really.  Since I don't engage with underage persons in sex acts, no.  Since I don't engage in BDSM in public schools, no.  Since I don't do a lot of things, no.

Oh yes!  The poor, misunderstood criminal.  Next, I'm sure someone is going to go for ignorance of the law really *is* an excuse.



Rhodes85 -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 7:48:06 PM)

As a friend of mine says...'ignorance may be bliss but its not an excuse'

Which is to say that whether she knew what she did was technically a crime or not is irrelevant in this case. It should be basic common sense that blowing someone in the back of a classroom isn't the right thing to do. I might point out that even if they both had been over the age of 18 such an act would still have been illegal as it involves performing a sexual act in a public place. That being said, as LadyPact stated, she should have known what she did was wrong, she was prosecuted and given probation (which as far as i'm concerned was getting off easy) and she was only jailed for violating the terms of her probation, as anyone on probation for any reason would. If she had bothered to adhere to the terms of her probation, nothing would have happened to her. She brought it on herself, regardless of what you may think of the 'ethics' of the situation or law involved. Actually she strikes me as the 'the rules don't apply to me' type of person. I figure she got what she deserved. Like LadyPact also said, she won't do it again i'm sure. I suggest you listen to what LadyPact has said, as she is quite correct in her assessment of the situation.

Just something to think about.

Oh and on a related note, I believe it the purpose of the law in question is not to punish teenagers for having sex but to protect children/teens from predators and keep them safe. So, I fully support it. Though I wouldn't exactly call the girl in question in this case a true sex offender, more of an idiot who didn't think of the consequences of her actions.



hamster11 -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 8:07:24 PM)

what was the quote about the nazis taking people away till there was no one left to stand up when you were taken away?



NihilusZero -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 8:10:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhodes85

Though I wouldn't exactly call the girl in question in this case a true sex offender, more of an idiot who didn't think of the consequences of her actions.

It's a bit insane how blind some of the rhetoric is getting.

You even openly admit here above that she isn't anything remotely qualifying as a sex offender, but you feel okay with her being punished as if she was so you can feel smug in your projected tough love onto another human being for acting wet behind the ears at an age where she's supposed to be.

[8|]



Rhodes85 -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 8:34:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhodes85

Though I wouldn't exactly call the girl in question in this case a true sex offender, more of an idiot who didn't think of the consequences of her actions.

It's a bit insane how blind some of the rhetoric is getting.

You even openly admit here above that she isn't anything remotely qualifying as a sex offender, but you feel okay with her being punished as if she was so you can feel smug in your projected tough love onto another human being for acting wet behind the ears at an age where she's supposed to be.

[8|]



Perhaps I should have phrased that differently. What I mean is she still should have known it was illegal, even if it wasn't considered a sexual offense. That aside Whether I agree or disagree with what the law is in this situation, it nonetheless exists and she violated it. Ok, she probably wasn't aware it would classify her as a sex offender. Fair enough, but she brought that on herself when she violated her probation - which I might add WAS explained to her clearly. In simple terms, no matter what you think of the law itself, it existed and she violated it, and furthermore made her situation what it is today by violating the terms of her probation. Therefore she brought it on herself.



DavanKael -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/12/2009 11:02:05 PM)

< sigh >  Puritanical B.S. with some retarded teenage refusal to abide by what she agreed to in the plea thrown in. 
I'm 34, I still have a biiiiiiiiig problem with unearned authority. 
At 16, 3 days before becoming engaged to the guy who would become my husband for nearly 15 years, that 17 year old boy and I had sex for the first time (My first time ever).  I went down on him and he on me prior to that. 
I cared about the fact that I was doing something sacred with someone I love(d), intended to marry. 
I didn't give a shit about age of consent. 
It's ludicrous to brand a situation like that a 'sex offender' sort of scenario (I'm not saying those kids were in exactly the same situation as my ex- and I were but the ages are right about the same). 
And, as for locale: I defy just about anyone, especially as a teen, to cite never havng been sexual somewhere public.  I mean, given the puritanical views at work in this country, it's not like most Parents are going to open their homes so that their kids can safely and in the safety of their own homes share such things.  Luckily, my ex-'s Parents knew what was up, didn't approve, but had the pragmatism to deal with the inevitable. 
As for the girl not fulfilling the agreements of the plea, yeah, that's stupid but I still don't think she ought be branded forever after as a sex offender: that's one of the most damning marks that can be cast upon a person and it ought not be cast lightly. 
  Davan



HandSolo -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 12:07:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamster11

what was the quote about the nazis taking people away till there was no one left to stand up when you were taken away?


"They took away the flashers, and I said nothing.

They took away the child pornographers, and I said nothing.

When they took me away for blowing a guy from the swim team in the back of math class and giving the middle finger to my terms of probation,  no one was left to speak."

I'm pretty sure that was it.



emy33 -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 12:14:54 AM)

Personally I believe that more went on with that case of the girl in the classroom. While I don't know that particular state's juvenille court laws, I do know some have a 3 strikes you're out type policy.

Judging from the fact that she was given 5 years of probation. It could be this was not her first time in court.  And not following the terms of probation will count as a "stike", especially if the judge is not as liable to be lient. I also know that probation officers put their weight in to the judge. It's again up to the judge on weather or not they listen to the probation officer.

While I don't agree with taking a hormonal teenager and labeling them for life. I do think that there are not enough facts to make a decision on her sentence being "just" or not.  This could have been her 5th offence with a lient judge or her 1st.. No one knows based on the information provided. 

To me this article was a slanted view showing only the problems with the US sex offender registry. There are always atleast two sides. 




VanDarksyd -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 12:15:07 AM)

Until recently, the law books stated that "sodomy" was illegal, and that included pretty much any sex that wasn't of the "Tab A into Slot B" variety. It's since been, on a state-by-state basis, i believe, repealed. Now, this young lady, whose intelligence i will not call into question, performed an act she knew to be illegal. Maybe not due to the age difference, but due to the fact that she was in a public school classroom during hours, with other students and a teacher, presumably, in the room. Now, i don't believe entering her into any sort of registry was appropriate. To be fair, she failed to meet terms of her probation, which isn't all that difficult, in all honesty. I've done it for three years running, and it's not bad. At least in Alabama, I'm not so sure about Georgia. However, the idea of registering that as a sex offense, especially "sodomy on a minor" is a tad overboard. I myself am 20, and dating a 14 year old. I KNOW she's underage, and don't plan on going any farther than a kiss with her until she's 16 (age of consent down here) Why? Cause i don't wanna go to jail. Now, I'm not sure what the age of consent is, or was, in Georgia, but dollars to donuts says it was 16, which put her over, and him under. How hard is it to be sure of the age of consent? Not hard. So, in a conclusion to this rambling, train-of-thought-cause-it's-2-in-the-A.M.-here post, I submit that while she was guilty, and indeed pled such, that the entering of her name into the sex offender registry was unfair.

BTW, LP, i love reading you argue. It's so much fun!



couldbemage -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 12:43:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhodes85
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhodes85 Though I wouldn't exactly call the girl in question in this case a true sex offender, more of an idiot who didn't think of the consequences of her actions.
It's a bit insane how blind some of the rhetoric is getting. You even openly admit here above that she isn't anything remotely qualifying as a sex offender, but you feel okay with her being punished as if she was so you can feel smug in your projected tough love onto another human being for acting wet behind the ears at an age where she's supposed to be. [8|]
Perhaps I should have phrased that differently. What I mean is she still should have known it was illegal, even if it wasn't considered a sexual offense. That aside Whether I agree or disagree with what the law is in this situation, it nonetheless exists and she violated it. Ok, she probably wasn't aware it would classify her as a sex offender. Fair enough, but she brought that on herself when she violated her probation - which I might add WAS explained to her clearly. In simple terms, no matter what you think of the law itself, it existed and she violated it, and furthermore made her situation what it is today by violating the terms of her probation. Therefore she brought it on herself.

So all laws are right? A lawbreaker is always bad?

You support laws that punish predators (parents 99%) and once the law has support for whatever reason, all results of the law are just?

Who's the victim?

Harriet Tubman was an archfiend of a criminal?

Hell. Runaway slaves were criminals.

(once upon a time, you could be arrested for stealing yourself)



Malkinius -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 1:37:26 AM)

{Fast Reply}

Greetings all....

You are all missing an important point. These were teenagers and they DIDN'T think about all the laws and problems they could get into. They thought they could get away with it. It was exciting and dark and everyone was watching the movie and of course they wouldn't get caught. Yes, they got caught. Yes, they got in trouble. Yes, the girl was stupid and didn't follow the rules afterwards. Yes, she deserved what happened to her by not following her parole rules.

The point is that they were feeling immortal like many teenagers do. They can get away with whatever they want to do. Many of us felt that way at that age...at least at times. That has nothing to do with the intelligence or stupidity of any US laws about sex or anything else.

Be well all.....

Malkinius



WyldHrt -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 2:23:29 AM)

quote:

And, as for locale: I defy just about anyone, especially as a teen, to cite never havng been sexual somewhere public

C'mon, Davan. The backseat of a car in Lovers' Lane, making out at the movies, or getting it on in Mom/Dad's empty house is one thing; blowing a guy in a classroom full of people, many underage, during school hours, is another.

I have to say I'm surprised at your stance on the punishment. If the girl had met her commitments to the parole office (you can bet this was spelled out quite clearly in court and reinforced by a crapload of documents), the whole thing would have went away. Instead, she blew it off and got her ass slammed. Now she is whining about things being "unfair". Sorry... but, cry me a river. 



allthatjaz -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 3:34:33 AM)

Every so often a law will be enforced on someone to set an example to others. I think this was possibly very much the case here.
We don't know the full history of this girl and without that its not so simple to make judgment but I will say that I have a 17 year old and he is still very much a child.



sweetsub1957 -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 4:18:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

The backseat of a car in Lovers' Lane, making out at the movies, or getting it on in Mom/Dad's empty house is one thing; blowing a guy in a classroom full of people, many underage, during school hours, is another.

I have to say I'm surprised at your stance on the punishment. If the girl had met her commitments to the parole office (you can bet this was spelled out quite clearly in court and reinforced by a crapload of documents), the whole thing would have went away. Instead, she blew it off and got her ass slammed. Now she is whining about things being "unfair". Sorry... but, cry me a river. 



Precisely.



marie2 -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 4:57:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I mean, given the puritanical views at work in this country, it's not like most Parents are going to open their homes so that their kids can safely and in the safety of their own homes share such things.   
  Davan


I disagree with this statement. 

As the parent of a 15 yr old, I can tell you that they are beginning sex education in the classroom in sixth grade, and it includes birth control methods, and encourages the kids to talk to their parents and doctors about their sexual concerns and issues.  I remember it well, as I had to sign a paper giving my permission for my daughter to participate.  I believe there was one parent in a class of 22 who didn't allow their child to take the course.  Of course this was only one town in one school, but I would question where you are getting the stats on how "most parents" handle their children's budding sexuality.

In addition to that, when I took my daughter for a school physical last year, at the age of 14, the doctor asked me to leave the room.  I asked my girl if she was alright with that, and she was, so I left, but she confided in me afterwards that the doctor addressed her sexuality and asked her is she was sexually active and needed birth control etc.  This is perfectly acceptable nowadays for the doc to talk to your child alone after the age of 14.  This is just another example of kids getting the idea that it's ok and it's acceptable and normal for them to be sexual beings.

I know many parents, myself included, who are responsible, reasonable and open minded enough that their kids can come to them with this stuff.  That's all I'm going to say here without divulging my child's personal life, but trust me, as a parent of a teen, who knows a lot of parents of teens, it's not as "puritanical" a country as you assume it is.




lockemann -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 7:14:31 AM)

Having never been young, horny, and stupid(at least not all at the same time)...  I think that the law as it is written NOW is just and should be upheld.  In this young lady's particular case, there may be extenuating circumstances and she might be able to argue in a court of law that her name be removed from the registry.  I know that many of you have made quite valid points...but unfortunately unless we declare the system 'broken' we all have to work within that system of laws and government.  Everyone knows that to commit a sex act in a public place is against the law... yet I would bet that the majority of us has at one point or another preformed a sex act in a 'public place'.  The law that existed at the time was broken and the due process of the law was followed.  A penalty was imposed by the court system and the young woman in the story failed to comply with the court imposed restrictions.  The consequences that have ensued from her choices have made a lasting impression on her.

The Law has been changed, but she still has to pay her penalty...Right or wrong(slippery concept in any case) she still needs to work within the legal system to effect a change in her own personal status.  I feel that if we have an issue with the law governing sexual acts and their legal status, we should work on lobbying the lawmakers to change those laws.  This country broke from England because we did not want to obey legal edicts handed down from the governing body.  The United States as a whole broke away and formed a new system of government to make laws we thought were more 'fair and just'.  Unless the kinky people of the world want to change the government, we have to change the laws that the government passes.

IMHO, The laws are not 'fair and just'.  The laws are written by people who shun being seen as different and who are terrified of losing power through non-conformity.  In this case majority should NOT rule.  Sex and state should be separate and laws should only be used to protect the innocent...not judge a lifestyle or specific sex act.



DavanKael -> RE: Unjust and ineffective sex laws in USA (8/13/2009 8:15:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

And, as for locale: I defy just about anyone, especially as a teen, to cite never havng been sexual somewhere public

C'mon, Davan. The backseat of a car in Lovers' Lane, making out at the movies, or getting it on in Mom/Dad's empty house is one thing; blowing a guy in a classroom full of people, many underage, during school hours, is another.

I have to say I'm surprised at your stance on the punishment. If the girl had met her commitments to the parole office (you can bet this was spelled out quite clearly in court and reinforced by a crapload of documents), the whole thing would have went away. Instead, she blew it off and got her ass slammed. Now she is whining about things being "unfair". Sorry... but, cry me a river. 



Good morning, Wyldhrt  :> 
I agree that the locale was a bit more exotic than is standard but I also think that it's not so big a deal as was made of it. 
And, I'm not, in any way, saying that the girl was right for not meeting the commitments she agreed to (In fact, she may go in my mental 'too stupid to breed' file) but, again, I think that a sledge hammer is being used where, if anything, a fly swatter (Or less) would have been more than enough. 
It just strikes me as extreme. 
  Davan



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