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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 1:06:20 AM   
HarderToBreathe2


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One final message before I go to bed.  Thank you Anne!!!  And thank you J, for writing me.  It definitely helped pull me out of the little hole I was digging for myself there.  I think I could move on more easily if I just knew what he's thinking, if he's okay, or if he's being an ass, etc etc.  But I have to give up the other side of the conversation, like you said Anne.  At this point, it's not my responsibility to be concerned with what he does or doesn't feel.  I would gladly take on that responsibility, but he won't let me in, so there's nothing  I can do.  I think it's crucial that I move on from this without making any assumptions or guesses about what he's thinking/feeling/doing, because to do so will change the way in which I move forward.  I just have to accept and find peace with the fact that I can't know everything, can't fix everything, can't control anything but myself.  The only way to move forward from this is to focus on other things, maybe do something good for someone else.  I am easily racked with lingering guilt, can ya tell?  Anyhoo, tomorrow is a new day.  Goodnight all.  <<hugs for everyone>> 

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 1:20:30 AM   
HarderToBreathe2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Collarher4ever


Yes it is cruel to just watch you stumble in the dark wondering what's expected next of you. Would you go back to him if he were to walk in the door? What are the chances that since he did this once that he wouldn't do it again and maybe faster the next time? How can it NOT be on some part his fault or responsibility? Why don't you tell him how you feel, not for his sake but for yours? you are under no obligation to him either. HATE is a perfectly normal feeling. Right now you still very sad about this turn of events. your female friends will say "he walked out on a great person..." you will agree and think to yourself... "what if he didn't".... for a while you will think of the what ifs... when you are ready... take all the feelings, the thoughts, the anger... and thoughtfully put them into a paper bag... every last one of them... on the outside write words to the effect of "Not Worth MY Time"... dispose them in the refuse and walk away from them, find a quiet place (parks work wonders) sit down, close eyes and listen to nothing in particular... breathe deeply and with each exhale free yourself...

when you are ready...


Thank you for saying this.  I have pretty much taken on the entire blame for this whole thing, both out loud and within myself.  But it really is cruel of him to not say a single word, isn't it?  Silently watching me got through all of this.   (he does know, he is aware).  I think I must feel that I deserve this kind of treatment from him, which is undoubtedly a self-worth issue that I have.  What I did to him did not come from a cruel place, this I know for sure.  But if he can't even be bothered to respond through all of this... well, I need to work on believing that I deserve better.

As far as telling him how I feel.... I almost wrote an angry email to him earlier, after I wrote that post, but I stopped myself.  I think I should probably sleep on it, because the words that come out of my mouth are liable to be pretty cutting.  Not that he would even be affected, I am sure. 

blah, lol.  G'nite.

< Message edited by HarderToBreathe2 -- 8/15/2009 1:23:39 AM >

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 7:19:08 AM   
leadership527


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What you desparately need to do H2B is to step away from this whole problem. You are wrapping yourself up in it like a mummy because you are sitting there dwelling on it. Look, there's been lots of good advice in this thread. Sift through it, figure out which of it actually applies to you (not all of it does and only you can really sort that out). You're pretty much agreeing with everyone... which is very submissive and all, but not helpful to you in figuring out what YOU need to to here to improve your chances the next time.

Insofar as writing angry emails... just don't. It won't help.

Insofar as who's fault it was? That's easy. It was both of your faults. What YOU need to do is figure out where your personal contributions to the failure were and work on those. But in the overall picture, it takes two to tango.

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 8:11:51 AM   
HarderToBreathe2


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Thanks everyone, but I'm done.  I'll definitely continue to work things out within myself, but the dwelling about this particular guy definitely needs to stop. 

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 11:01:22 AM   
HarderToBreathe2


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I wanted to write a kindof "The End" to all of this.  I did write him an email last night telling him that I thought it was cruel of him to ignore me as if I never mattered.  I know it was probably the wrong thing to do, but I didn't want to leave my last words to him as having been all of the explaining and apologizing and taking all of the blame upon myself.  I wanted to get a little of my dignity back.  I'm not sure if anyone can understand that or not.  Anyways, it wasn't a bad email, I wasn't harsh or handing out blame or asking him yet again to understand.  I was aiming for closure.  It pissed him off though, and he wrote me this back:   You crazy fucking psycho bitch.  What part of I never want to hear from you again makes you think that some forum therapy makes it all better and I should welcome you back with open arms?  You go back and forth on what you're feeling and what you're saying.  From remorse and saying you understand that I never want to talk to you agian and you won't bother me, to telling me I'm a horrible person and I'm cruel for not talking to you.  News Flash... that's part of what made me stop talking to you.  You may think you've changed, but you're still doing the same thing in a different form.  Your emotions change like the wind without rhyme or reason.  It's been at least a week now and even though I made it perfectly clear I never want to hear from you again I get texts and/or emails every fucking day.  Let me spell it out for you... you're a fucking crazy ass psycho bitch that I never want to fucking to talk to again.  You're completely incapable sticking with a decision, and apparently you don't take hints very well.  Never again means never fucking again.  Leave me alone, enjoy your new friends, and have a nice life.  Kinda harsh, but the truth of it is what hurts, and the fact that I pushed him to that point of anger by not letting things go.  But at least he said something, and I wouldn't dare ever try to communicate with him again beyond this point.  I'm just going to take some time to work on myself and my self-esteem, because right now, I have to say that I feel pretty low. 

Anyways, like I said, just wanted to write an ending to all this.  I'd still like to chat with you guys about other things, but I'm not going to continue to dwell on this one particular guy.  I'm just going to chalk it up to an experience that causes me to really examine these things about myself and work to change them.  And I think, truth be told, that if I felt more self-worth as a whole then I wouldn't get myself into these messes in the first place.  Thanks for all of your advice, and just know that I'm still mulling over all of it, and that it definitely wasn't a wasted effort.  You guys are the best --   <<hugs>>


 

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 5:56:49 PM   
ElectraGlide


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quote:

A favorite mind game in history, is ironically enough, the break up, which is really designed to see if the guy cares enough or if he is looking for a way out; which is far better than asking if they care, because they will always say yes


I have been through this twice. Yes I did want out. Things eroded over a long period of time, I would ask if everything is fine and get oh yes sure its fine. I moved on, looked to the future and never looked back. It was like some sort of game to them, well I play to win. When they wanted back with me, I just could not see it again. I am not angry or bitter, just happy to be with someone that does not play games. I am not getting any younger, and can not waste valuable time.

< Message edited by ElectraGlide -- 8/15/2009 5:58:01 PM >


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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 6:15:22 PM   
HarderToBreathe2


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quote:

I have been through this twice. Yes I did want out. Things eroded over a long period of time, I would ask if everything is fine and get oh yes sure its fine. I moved on, looked to the future and never looked back. It was like some sort of game to them, well I play to win. When they wanted back with me, I just could not see it again. I am not angry or bitter, just happy to be with someone that does not play games. I am not getting any younger, and can not waste valuable time.


Thanks for your viewpoint. 

I will never again play "the breakup game".  I've learned my lesson in a really bad way.

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 6:32:02 PM   
Leonidas


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You know, if you were to ask this question of a Buddhist, he'd say it would depend on how advanced/enlightened the man happened to be, attachment being a root cause of suffering, and all.

I'm not a practicing Buddhist, but I appreciate the sentiment.  I don't think that love and attachment are the same thing.  I think attachment has a lot to do with how you "feel" and love has everything to do with what you are prepared to "do".  Some men are attached "feelers".  Some men are detached "doers".  One kind will sit and blather on to you about how he feels about you.  The other will just matter of factly go about taking care of and protecting you in ways big and small.  I think that if whatever the relation is between you doesn't "work" the doer may have regrets about what he could have  "done" better, but he's not doing to soak a bunch of kleenex about how he can't go on without you.  Attachment on the one hand, love (specifically a masculine sort of love) on the other.

I think that we live in a society that expects men to behave a lot like women naturally behave, and proffers the idea that there's something wrong with them if they don't.  I think that's too bad.  I kind of like being a man.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/15/2009 6:35:22 PM >


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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 7:05:30 PM   
Ferns


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HarderToBreathe2, I know you have learnt a hard set of lessons here, but I hope you will benefit from all the posters who have given you some valuable input.

I have one thing to add that I haven't seen anyone bring up yet.

When I break up with someone, yes it hurts, it sucks, it is awful. I feel bad, I don't suddenly turn off all those feelings that were there before.

However if he is more invested than I am, I am very careful not to show my emotions.  Why?  Because showing that I still care can make him think there is still a chance, when there isn't, and having him believe that is more cruel than having him believe I don't care.

I have also asked men I have broken up with not to contact me anymore, even though they are good men whose company I enjoy as friends, if not as anything more.  Again, why?  Because every contact where I am friendly and nice and caring gives him hope of rekindling something when I know it's over.  Again, I think fostering that hope is more cruel than having no contact.

With those scenarios, it really doesn't matter what I say about it being over, as soon as I show that I still care for him, the hope springs up again, and that's a difficult position for both parties to be in.

Edited to add: This is a response to your original post, rather than a response to the particular situation you have since described

Ferns

< Message edited by Ferns -- 8/15/2009 7:12:08 PM >


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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 7:22:45 PM   
HarderToBreathe2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ferns

HarderToBreathe2, I know you have learnt a hard set of lessons here, but I hope you will benefit from all the posters who have given you some valuable input.

I have one thing to add that I haven't seen anyone bring up yet.

When I break up with someone, yes it hurts, it sucks, it is awful. I feel bad, I don't suddenly turn off all those feelings that were there before.

However if he is more invested than I am, I am very careful not to show my emotions.  Why?  Because showing that I still care can make him think there is still a chance, when there isn't, and having him believe that is more cruel than having him believe I don't care.

I have also asked men I have broken up with not to contact me anymore, even though they are good men whose company I enjoy as friends, if not as anything more.  Again, why?  Because every contact where I am friendly and nice and caring gives him hope of rekindling something when I know it's over.  Again, I think fostering that hope is more cruel than having no contact.

With those scenarios, it really doesn't matter what I say about it being over, as soon as I show that I still care for him, the hope springs up again, and that's a difficult position for both parties to be in.

Edited to add: This is a response to your original post, rather than a response to the particular situation you have since described

Ferns


Thank you Ferns, for bringing this viewpoint to light.  It doesn't make it hurt any less, but I can understand, as I have done the same thing before as well.  It's hard to see it from that side of things when you're in the middle of all the feelings, so I'm really glad that you pointed this out. 

Perhaps my true mistake was in getting way too invested way too quickly in the first place...... 

*Edited to add:

I'm not sure if I was more invested than him, to be honest.  It's possible, but hurtful and humiliating to think so....

< Message edited by HarderToBreathe2 -- 8/15/2009 7:39:20 PM >

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 8:26:04 PM   
muchmorefun440


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i agree with lashra about some societal programming at play. however, men do have emotions and like women, some show more than others. just like women, as the trust deepens, the connection is deeper. the deeper the connection the harder the breakup, no matter what it looks like from the outside. are you picking mates who are open and honest from the beginning?

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 8:46:08 PM   
HarderToBreathe2


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quote:

i agree with lashra about some societal programming at play. however, men do have emotions and like women, some show more than others. just like women, as the trust deepens, the connection is deeper. the deeper the connection the harder the breakup, no matter what it looks like from the outside. are you picking mates who are open and honest from the beginning?


With the majority of the guys I've been involved with, I would have to say a big huge "no" to your question.  I really do think that this last guy, though, truly was open and honest.  The problem is, how would I know?  That's what makes it hard to trust, the knowledge that you could be wrong.


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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 10:11:46 PM   
HarderToBreathe2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

You know, if you were to ask this question of a Buddhist, he'd say it would depend on how advanced/enlightened the man happened to be, attachment being a root cause of suffering, and all.

I'm not a practicing Buddhist, but I appreciate the sentiment.  I don't think that love and attachment are the same thing.  I think attachment has a lot to do with how you "feel" and love has everything to do with what you are prepared to "do".  Some men are attached "feelers".  Some men are detached "doers".  One kind will sit and blather on to you about how he feels about you.  The other will just matter of factly go about taking care of and protecting you in ways big and small.  I think that if whatever the relation is between you doesn't "work" the doer may have regrets about what he could have  "done" better, but he's not doing to soak a bunch of kleenex about how he can't go on without you.  Attachment on the one hand, love (specifically a masculine sort of love) on the other.

I think that we live in a society that expects men to behave a lot like women naturally behave, and proffers the idea that there's something wrong with them if they don't.  I think that's too bad.  I kind of like being a man.


Hi Leonidas.  I had to read your post 3 times before I really grasped what you were saying, and I think I get it now.  I myself would get along best with an attached feeler, no doubt.  I need the deep emotional connection above all else.   

I see what you mean about how differently a feeler versus a doer would react to a breakup.

When you say this at the beginning though...
quote:

You know, if you were to ask this question of a Buddhist, he'd say it would depend on how advanced/enlightened the man happened to be, attachment being a root cause of suffering, and all. 

you're saying that the more advanced/enlightened the man is -> the more of a "feeler" he is -> the more of an attachment he is going to feel  -> and therefore the more likely he is to suffer emotionally during/after a breakup... right?? 

that is, of course, if they felt an attachment with you in the first place.  the reason I add that little statement in is because it does take time for 2 people to build an attachment.  question is, how long does it take.  for me, I feel it very early on.  which is what causes me so much misery...  so perhaps this means that I'm just very enlightened and advanced!   lol 

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/15/2009 10:53:00 PM   
HarderToBreathe2


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I just want to say one more thing before calling it a night and crawling into my comfy bed with my dog and a new book (reading, another thing I gave up when I started putting all of my focus and time into the guy).

That email he sent was pretty harsh, and I hate that I pushed him to that level of frustration and anger.  But at the end of the day, that email is MUCH better than silence.  The silence was what crushed me; the email really didn't.  The fact that he said SOMETHING has helped me refocus my thoughts away from him and back onto myself.  My emotions wouldn't let things go during the silence, b/c I was so concerned with what he was thinking and feeling, and I had not a clue.  So, selfish though it may be of me, I'm just glad I got some kind of response, b/c I can now freely move forward.  The regrets and the guilt and feeling the loss of a good friend (short-lived though it may have been) will linger on for a while, but these things will no longer consume me.  Now I have to do what is best for me, with no regards to him, because he is no longer a part of my life.  I reached out a hand many many times and he didn't accept it, so I have to let him deal with his own stuff, and I'll deal with my own stuff, as there is no longer any connection left between the two of us.  In a couple days time, I will have a much clearer perspective on everything, because I will have had some true distance from it all. 

I'm telling you, completely ignoring someone, no matter what that person may have done, is the harshest form of punishment one can recieve.  The doler of the punishment need not even be making any effort nor putting any thought into it at all.  But he's letting you know that you don't *matter* to him at all, and that is the hardest thing of all to accept.  So all of this dwelling that I've been doing was triggered by fear of abandonment issues and self-doubt and questioning my own self-worth (internalizing the fact that I am apparently no longer of any worth to him).  Maybe I am prematurely detaching myself from the situation and "blaming" him for reacting in such a way in which he had every right to react.  But these are my thoughts and feelings at the moment.  Growth is a process.

BTW, I'll be taking most of my thoughts to my LJ account from now on, lest you guys get sick of hearing me talk.    I realized that I've kindof started using this as a form of journal towards the end of this thread, somewhere to sort out my thoughts, but this is not the place for that if it doesn't offer something of value to anyone else.  So LJ is where I'll be, continuing to work all this through.  I'll still popping in though, it's kinda fun around here. 

< Message edited by HarderToBreathe2 -- 8/15/2009 11:19:13 PM >

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/22/2009 8:03:13 PM   
Eivarden


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Going to OPs question.

All I can answer is "Yes".

The rest of this will be a long wall of text, so Ignore it from here if you want lol. (Also do to length, I'm going to be lazy, and not spell check it to death.)

One of the key things to notice (I'm sure most have) is that most guys are told it's not ok to cry.

Most guys turn this towards anger, and yelling. (But it's no different than just crying, but because of its nature, those who are targeted by the anger, treat it differently, than if they were crying.)

Now most know this, but what most don't really notice, is just how natural it becomes when you integrate it into your life every single day, for all of your life.

Yes a guy can actually cry. But there is always different levels of sadness.
The trickiest part about this all, is being able to tell the difference between anger and sadness.

And I don't mean just the woman, but the man as well. Half the time he remembers something that made him mad, rather than made him sad.
And this can effect how he treats someone later.

Now getting back on track.

I get an emotional attraction to someone almost right away.
For me, it's not that hard, for the average vanilla guy, I'm sure its quite longer.
I have only broken up with one girl. The rest all left me, and the ones that left me, we were still on good terms and friends who still hung out and talk.
The one I broke up with, took me months to do, and I still didn't have the guts to say it, because I knew she still loved me. Eventually she sorta knew something was up, and then asked if that's what I wanted to do.

But even after my relationships, I think about them, try to pick apart where things went wrong, and see if I can learn from it. (As most people, I assume, would do.)

Almost right after the breakups, I would want them back, yes.
But years later, I can safely see it was for the better, for both of us.

But then again most of my relationships I wouldn't really call that deep. I've always been in vanilla relationships, and the level of emotion seemed to pale in comparison for how I felt for a woman who I was never going to be with.
I just consider myself generally emotional, in both good and bad. I get in a lovey-dovey mood rather easily.
I figured it was how True love was, but it was just me being more emotional than what I would assume average vanilla guys are.

The girls that dated me, also said it was a bit too weird for them, because I wasn't anything close to their normal BFs. (This wasn't a good thing, as this is what caused the break ups.)

Now as for the woman I mentioned before, who I wanted to be with, and still do, she is the person who got me to realize I was better suited for a D/s relationship.

But every single day I come here, and look at profiles, I always compare them to her.
I think about how I would love to be with her often. Maybe no longer every day, since it's been forever since I last spoke to her. And because now I'm trying to imagine an unnamed figure, who will take her place.

I get just as pathetic and whiney as anyone can. I just try to keep it to myself.

I have moments where I have fits of anger,
moments of pure glee and I just held onto my partners arm, moments where I feel too sad and try not to talk to anyone,
moments where being alone hurt and I just lay in my bed clenching a pillow,
moments of self hatred and wish things worked out better in previous relationships.

I'm not sure what could make someone assume people don't have emotions. But I can understand wanting to know if someone actually cares about others.

< Message edited by Eivarden -- 8/22/2009 8:06:17 PM >

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/22/2009 8:18:29 PM   
pyroaquatic


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I cry. Will I let you see me cry? Only if I love you.

Excellent post Eivarden. You have my applause.


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You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

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RE: Men and Emotions? - 8/22/2009 9:25:55 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HarderToBreathe2

So I have a very serious question for the men out there... do you ever really FEEL something for us?  How long does it take for you to form an emotional connection with someone new?  What about during/after a breakup... do you really care at all?  think about us?  miss us?  feel sadness or regrets?  want us back?  If I even almost knew the answer to these questions, I wouldn't be asking.  It confuses me and causes a lot of frustration not to know what a guy is thinking/feeling. Another question... do you play mind games or play hard to get?  I know every man is different (sort of, lol), but I'm just interested in any individual views on the topic that any of you might wish to share.  Thanks!!!


reconcile the fact you can never know. even if he is polite and empathetic that may be in response to his upbringing or reflect that he cares about your pain, but may be content with the two of you parting ways. his silence or perceived ambivalence could be for the reasons mentioned or merely discomfort with conflict, avoidance, or a wish not to make things worse than they are. he may also believe he has zero obligation towards you once things are said and done.

on the other hand, one would hope the person would be reasonable to some degree and attempt to end things on a pleasant note, but as we both know that isn't always the case. for what its worth i have given ghosts far too much of my time and energy and learned that it is rarely worth it. there is usually a genuine reason why things don't work and it may take quite awhile for those to come into view.

you can ask why until you're blue in the face. but you'll have greater peace and find closure if you come to understand that every why is a why not in disguise. i hope the answers you seek find their way to your heart.

porcelaine


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