RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE...THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE...THAT TIRED OLD... - 8/20/2009 1:20:56 PM

Lockit

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Why do I feel the urge to say... on your knee's all you slut's! Now bend and be ready for a subbie line up where all the domly one's can have at your ass's? hehe

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Post #: 461

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 1:28:57 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
I am not a person who goes through life with her hand out. I have closets full of lovely clothes, nice jewelry, an expensive doll hobby, and you know what? I paid for those things myself, or got them as gifts from family members. If I ask someone to get me a drink at a party, I hand him the money. Who do you think gets more interest from me, the one who takes the cash, or the one who spends his OWN $2? Good guess! And more than likely, I will cover the next round myself, because that's how I roll. All of you who are so appalled at the notion of someone IN A COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP spending money that he earned on his dominant, well... just keep in mind that the internet is a public space, and there are lots of women reading your words.

You know, I'm so strongly beginning to suspect that for many, if not most, people, this whole argument is something that only exercises folk on a forum like this. It would take you 30 seconds - with that 'buying-a-drink-test' - to establish that a man was a tight-fisted git. It would take me about the same to reveal to myself a grasper for what she is, too.

I have to say, though, Lady Hib (and I know this is going to infuriate you - sorry!) There are occasions when I'd accept the money from a woman for her drink. It's not happened often, but sometimes I've got the vibe from her of " 'Oh no, matey. I'm not having you thinking that I 'owe you anything in return later'" . . . The stern expression, the set jaw . . . gawd, I've had that a couple of times.

. . . but that's another complication for, perhaps, a different thread.

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Post #: 462

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 1:31:09 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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This comment is made in reflection of something that Undergroundsea mentioned. Without going through and quoting him directly, the basis of what I am about to say is in relation to the remark that if female Dominants have to be aware of males specifically seeking us out for sexual pleasure, that we as femdoms must realize that male subs are targeted financially.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with this statement. In many cases, I do find it to be true. Going on this site alone, there are a number of females out there who are specifically looking for financial tribute. However, hasn't this thread in itself and the reactions given by the submissive males proven the same in return? How many comments in these responses, as well as other threads on the boards, shown that there are absolutely examples of the very same thing in reverse? There have been a number of males who have said that they have no intention of contributing on a financial and/or service level *until* a committed dynamic is established.

The problem that we have when presented with this situation is, exactly how does one get from the hello stage to the dynamic stage? Are we all keeping the financial balance sheet? How much are we supposed to invest before there is any return?

Let Me throw this out for the general populace. I've often said on these boards that My preferred method of meeting new contacts is arranging to say hello to them by going to a function that I was planning to attend anyway. That means that everyone involved takes care of their own transportation and door fee. I don't see how anybody can argue that.

The problem seems to occur as we're taking the next step. Maybe that vanilla meet in public where we're making progress. Now, in My particular case, that's not a one on one deal. MP and I often go to meet subs together. That means there are two of us and one of you (sub male) and I certainly don't expect you to pick up the tab for that. More often than not, I'll pay the entire bill.

Here's the grey area. How often do I continue to pick up the check during the getting to know you phase? In My process of several meets and play opportunities, is there ever a time before the dynamic is established, that I should expect some kind of contribution? If I'm paying all of the restaurant tabs, can you not return the favor in some small way? If you can't, yes, I'm going to see you as cheap.

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Post #: 463

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 1:42:38 PM

Starbuck09

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But if ou were paying all the resteraunt tabs you would be completely at liberty to see the other person as cheap no matter what type of relationship you were pursuing Lady. The best way I think is to date in as vanilla a way as possible. Once you'e gotten on really well or decided the man is a tit then you can take the next step, get rid of him or start a bit more of a kink relatonship. If what you are after is slave owner then yes that would be the time to ask for a tribute.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 464

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 1:48:34 PM

Lockit

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It really isn't that complicated. We each do things differently and there could be some assumption that it will be this or that... but we have to look at the people, situations and all. To determine it has to go one way or another could keep us from knowing a truely individual situation and person. Without flexablity... sometimes we miss out.

Go with what feels right and ditch what doesn't.

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Post #: 465

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 1:50:27 PM

Starbuck09

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That's true that every individual isiffeent Lockit but Lady asked for opinions and that's mine is all. It's not definitive by any means it's just what I think is best.

(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 466

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 1:53:15 PM

Lockit

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I'm not just refering to you StarBuck... sorry to make it seem so! I guess the whole arguement gets a bit sidetracked and detailed and I like things real simple. lol But then that is my opinion too and for many it won't work that way! lol

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Post #: 467

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 1:56:28 PM

Starbuck09

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No worries lockitt and I think you're dead on about simplicity nearly always the best way by a country mile. I'm off now but I shall return like the sexy boomerang that I am so till later everyone...

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Post #: 468

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 2:07:56 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
I am not a person who goes through life with her hand out. I have closets full of lovely clothes, nice jewelry, an expensive doll hobby, and you know what? I paid for those things myself, or got them as gifts from family members. If I ask someone to get me a drink at a party, I hand him the money. Who do you think gets more interest from me, the one who takes the cash, or the one who spends his OWN $2? Good guess! And more than likely, I will cover the next round myself, because that's how I roll. All of you who are so appalled at the notion of someone IN A COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP spending money that he earned on his dominant, well... just keep in mind that the internet is a public space, and there are lots of women reading your words.

You know, I'm so strongly beginning to suspect that for many, if not most, people, this whole argument is something that only exercises folk on a forum like this. It would take you 30 seconds - with that 'buying-a-drink-test' - to establish that a man was a tight-fisted git. It would take me about the same to reveal to myself a grasper for what she is, too.

I have to say, though, Lady Hib (and I know this is going to infuriate you - sorry!) There are occasions when I'd accept the money from a woman for her drink. It's not happened often, but sometimes I've got the vibe from her of " 'Oh no, matey. I'm not having you thinking that I 'owe you anything in return later'" . . . The stern expression, the set jaw . . . gawd, I've had that a couple of times.

. . . but that's another complication for, perhaps, a different thread.

The only vibes I have ever gotten from the Lady are friendly, intelligent and charming.

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(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 469

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 2:31:04 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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By tribute I mean material offerings that are critically required to sustain an otherwise personal relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Sea, when I said that I found wealthy men to be among the cheapest, I meant men of means in general, not just of the kinky persuasion.

I recall a reference to each wealthy men and submissive men.

When I apply the critical thinking to wealthy men, I see two possibilities that could explain why a given wealthy man might be thought of as cheap: (1) he is cautious against being sought only for his assets by a golddigger, and/or (2) amongst that that has led to accumulating wealth is penny pinching. So there may or may not be basis to the claim about a given wealthy man.

I think an interest in BDSM takes birth when one has experiences that somehow create a psychosexual response to BDSM. It is hard for me to fathom how this phenomenon for male subs would occur only in men who are cheap. Therefore, applying critical thinking to that claim leads me to the explantion of being cautious against being financially used but not to anything that would suggest that they are intrinsically cheap.

I do not see an intellectual basis to your claim but am certainly open to any other ideas that would explain the claimed behavior.

quote:

I am not a person who goes through life with her hand out. I have closets full of lovely clothes, nice jewelry, an expensive doll hobby, and you know what? I paid for those things myself, or got them as gifts from family members.

I do not in any way place such a claim against you. I am aware you are a successful professional and I appreciate your independence. I direct my comment only against the claim that submissive men are born cheap.

quote:

All of you who are so appalled at the notion of someone IN A COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP spending money that he earned on his dominant, well... just keep in mind that the internet is a public space, and there are lots of women reading your words.

The talk of tribute has been all over the place, including question about paying for dates. So, the talk is not limited to the notion of someone in a committed relationship.

The OP does describe a committed relationship. I don't see any issue with what they are doing in that relationship. The objections there are not directed against why he gave those gifts, but at how it was presented.

Lastly, I have seen before the comment about the whole world watching our words. To me, it comes across as an attempt to try to scare men who dare speak against the idea of tribute. It's as if you are saying, men, speak against giving tribute and you will be blacklisted by all the women in the world.

Indeed people take notice of what is said. Women to whom tribute is important take notice of men who are open to it and against it. Men who avoid tribute take notice of women who seem to require it, and those who do not.

If you think the idea of tribute is fairminded, why not explain why you think it is so rather than trying to scare men into abandoning their position?

I wonder if the women who speak strongly in favor of men providing material gestures are threatened in some way by the ongoing change in ways of spending by the sexes. If so, I wonder if it has to do with societal programming where what a man spends on a woman is taken as a measure of his regard for her, and any perceived decline is perceived as a decline in regard, which such a woman finds to offend her.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 470

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 2:59:45 PM

Venatrix

Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
I direct my comment only against the claim that submissive men are born cheap.

I don't believe anyone thinks that people are born cheap. My theory is that people who are penny-pinchers have one of two attributes. One is that they are genuinely concerned about money. When I was in grad school, I could pinch a penny so hard, you could hear it scream for miles around. That's not the issue with me. I understand that many people have financial concerns.

The issue is when someone makes vastly more money than he or she needs to live comfortably (food, housing, clothing, recreation, retirement taken care of and still has scads left over) and is still a penny pincher, which leads me to attribute number two: that such people are afraid of being taken advantage of. Nothing wrong with that, either, as a matter of self-preservation, but when this trait takes over to the point where you are obsessed with every penny you spend on someone else, it does have a negative impact on your character, to the point where few people wish to be around you. After all, there's a reason why Dickens made Scrooge a miser.

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 471

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 3:05:12 PM

Lockit

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OMG... I grew up around multimillionaires and a billionaire once in a while. I grew up where the orange groves met up with sandy beaches and mountians everywhere and the gold and oil fields. I have known a lot of rich people and I always felt the rich were rather odd. They were anal about money and things... they focused on the wrong things and most of them... were cheap! They expected the knowledge of their being rich was enough to make anything happen for them and people would clammer to them to be all they wanted to be in hopes that they could somehow link into that money. These rich people used that fact to use others... not because they were afriad to get used. Once in a while one would be afriad of being used for their money... but they were the rare sort because most were flashing money so they could get what they wanted with no money.

I liked the middle class guys... who went more on who they were than what they had. Give me a solid hard workin man and I am all there!

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No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!

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Post #: 472

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 3:32:47 PM

LaTigresse

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Lockit, I have noticed the very same thing about the wealthy. Many of them seem to think that because they exist, they should have. Add some fame to that mix and they will easily walk out of a shop, restaurant or club without paying, assuming the goods and services were somehow due them. Just because they graced the place with their presence.

Not pleasant at all.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 8/20/2009 3:33:24 PM >

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Post #: 473

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 3:34:36 PM

PeonForHer

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FR

I'm going to add this story, because it just has to go into a thread on tributes. Please - let no-one think his or her post reminded me of it. It just popped into my head.

It's a true story that appeared in Private Eye some years ago and concerns a zoo in the Far East (Nope, I'm not divulging the country.) Anyway, it was an open sort of zoo - one in which visitors were encouraged to get close to the animals that weren't considered dangerous. This included the chimpanzees.

The story hit the papers after a very rich man complained to the zoo authorities that a particular female chimp had stolen one of his finest Italian-made shoes. However, the rich man became very vague when he was asked to describe, exactly, the course of events. Happily, there was a witness. This witness said that the female chimp had vaulted the fence, grabbed the rich man by the buttocks, thrown him to the ground, yanked off his trousers, and mounted him. The witness was very clear that the rich man had enjoyed the experience. Then the chimp had made off with the rich man's left shoe.

It seems that this rich man, having paved the way with his own complaint, encouraged others to follow suit. The female chimp had . . . . amorously approached . . . a number of men over the years, and each time taken a shoe after the liaison. The police later discovered that the chimp had hidden a collection of more than a hundred shoes in a hole in a tree.

The zoo-owner commented, "What are these men complaining about? Surely a lady deserves a tribute after they've been pleasured so well? They are not gentlemen, and they disgust me."

I'm not clear what this anecdote adds to the present theoretical discussion about tributes. I impart it purely from an earnest desire to furnish the debate with an important, and I hope thought-provoking, factual example.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 8/20/2009 3:39:29 PM >

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Post #: 474

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 3:49:38 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
The problem that we have when presented with this situation is, exactly how does one get from the hello stage to the dynamic stage? Are we all keeping the financial balance sheet? How much are we supposed to invest before there is any return?

Good question :)

For me, proceeding in the same manner as I would for vanilla dating works. I do what is within the norm for courting in vanilla circumstances. The relationship proceeds organically and I use judgment about timing and what is appropriate as people do in vanilla courting.

Also, to object against demands for service skills and tribute is not the same as not providing service, or not extending any material gestures. I refer again to the example I gave that a woman might be turned off if a man focused on sex right at the outset even if both know it is desired, or both have an interest for things to go in that direction. I make the same point for service and material gestures. When I meet or am wooing someone, I naturally extend each but would be turned off if someone demanded them in a way that felt disrespectful. As I indicated before, context makes each situation what it is.

My answer to the question for how to handle the matter is the same way how it might be done for sexual matters. What would women tell a man for what not to do so as to not raise flags about an intent to sexually use? I think the same fundamental ideas would apply in the other direction. My comments are directed not so much at how to start the process--I think the process evolves organically--but at how not to disrupt the process by raising flags.

As with women, there is no one response in men and bringing BDSM into the mix makes the matter more complex with respect to the variety in response. I think one has to rely on judgment. As for examples, I think treating the gestures as good will gestures versus an entitlement, and reciprocating the spirit or sincerity are steps that might help keep the flags away. One question to ask might be how can a man know whether or how much she appreciates him? With D/s, it can become a more complex balance to show appreciation and yet maintain a headspace or dynamic, which will vary based on the response of each person.

Unfortunately, money can bring out lesser motivations. I think it would help to keep intentions sincere, and then the actions will likely come across as sincere. I can recall two instances when I had extended material gestures to dommes I was getting to know. In each case, it is as if she began to test me to see what else I might do for her financially (it seems she had fallen into the trap that she had an expense coming up and wondered if she could offload it to me), which turned me off. Eventually, with other observations that I deemed to be strikes, I withdrew. In these cases, I think it was a matter of limited compatibility of personalities, as highlighted by such an attempt, and the parting was bound to happen. However, if another otherwise compatible domme did the same, it would turn me off and I would see it as a strike. My advice to avoid such a scenario would be to not take the gestures for granted and, if there is question about whether the sub is into financial submission, ask him rather than assume or test if he might be so.

For service, my advice would to position the service as a mutually enjoyed kink versus a price for entry. I would suggest simply seeing if the sub initiates with service, or asking for an act of service. I would then ask him to explain how he feels about service. Even if he has not initiated, I would ask him how he feels about service. I would not, however, explicity say he must perform service if wishes to keep attention.

There is a balance between giving adequate respect and nurturing the dynamic and expecting service and subservience. I know from witnessing it many times that this balance can be had.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 8/20/2009 4:11:43 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 475

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 3:59:35 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix
The issue is when someone makes vastly more money than he or she needs to live comfortably (food, housing, clothing, recreation, retirement taken care of and still has scads left over) and is still a penny pincher, which leads me to attribute number two: that such people are afraid of being taken advantage of. Nothing wrong with that, either, as a matter of self-preservation, but when this trait takes over to the point where you are obsessed with every penny you spend on someone else, it does have a negative impact on your character, to the point where few people wish to be around you. After all, there's a reason why Dickens made Scrooge a miser.

I think another possibility is that a given individual simply does not wish to part with money. I try to think of circumstantial explanations when a trait is generalized across a group of persons.

In any case, I think what you say about the type of person you describe--one who lives comfortably with food, housing, clothing, recreation, retirement taken care and scads still left--is reasonable enough and most people would feel the same way as you do.

I am curious how many of the submissive men you have encountered whom you describe as cheap fit this description?

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Venatrix)

Post #: 476

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 4:01:15 PM

Venatrix

Posts: 2238
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Hah, what an amateur. Any competent domina would have made sure she got a pair of shoes that matched.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 477

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 4:06:50 PM

Venatrix

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Joined: 11/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

In any case, I think what you say about the type of person you describe--one who lives comfortably with food, housing, clothing, recreation, retirement taken care and scads still left--is reasonable enough and most people would feel the same way as you do.

I am curious how many of the submissive men you have encountered whom you describe as cheap fit this description?

Every last one of them.

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 478

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 4:13:14 PM

SmartStrongSub

Posts: 23
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline

I veiwed your profile Starbucks. I see you are still very young. I appreciate your caution and fear of being taken advantage. I understand your youthful innocence and desire that relationships be pure of any material aspect. I recall that I shared those qualities when I was young but reality has educated and calloused me. And so I must caution that material giving is and always will be a measure of devotion in our relationships, familial, amorous or otherwise. Parents give to children, spouses give to each other, lovers indilge their beloved and benefactors give to their protoges. The giving is not always or even often equal as resources are not so distributed and that is especially true at your age. But the reality is we respond with affection to people who give to us when they can, whether it is of their time, their attention or of their wealth. The more they give, the more we feel their devotion and love.

As for using a giving in a bdsm relationship, the reality is this is not the vanilla world, the dominant makes the rules and you will have to decide to accept and enjoy her dominion or to keep searching, hoping to find one that fits your image. Sure you may get burned once in awhile, but the risk is small and the rewards are great. Demanding a token of sincerity is a well established method employed by dominant women to weed out the equivicol, those who want only to play the sub, engage in selfabuse and then disappear. By the way, the younger and less experienced you are, the more you will be, fairly or not, considered a risk. There are other methods with which you will be confronted. Work your way through it, don't let rigidity in your thinking or fear of being taken cause you to miss something wonderful. Put yourself in her shoes and consider her needs and concerns. Most of all be open and honest about who you are and what you want.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

It cannot act as a measure of devotion on it's own strong sub as to do so suggest that how you measure one's love is by the size and nature of what they give you. A token of sicerity is,I feel, unfair as I do not demand one in return and as I have said before it takes away my choice to make a gift the only option is to accede to a demand which, personally I feel, robs me of dignity. There are plenty of female flakes as well strong sub. I believe many women on here would be much happier [indeed many have said as much on this thread] if they dated in as vanilla a way as possible to esablish solid grounds for a relationship of any kind.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

Post #: 479

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/20/2009 4:15:51 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

In any case, I think what you say about the type of person you describe--one who lives comfortably with food, housing, clothing, recreation, retirement taken care and scads still left--is reasonable enough and most people would feel the same way as you do.

I am curious how many of the submissive men you have encountered whom you describe as cheap fit this description?

Every last one of them.

In that event I am curious if that number makes for enough of a sampling to say submissive men are cheap.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Venatrix)

Post #: 480

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