RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE".....

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (Full Version)

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Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 8:50:42 AM)
La Tiggresse my initial post on this thread took umbrage with the original post. Since then in response to my post I got into a debate with some posters about the act of tribute itself and its importance in a kink relationship, I have no excuse to be here it is a debate like any other for me. I do not know how many times I can repeat this I have no problem whatsoever with consensual financil play it is just a kink. If you want to be a slave that hands financial reigns to your partner then that is absolutely fair enough and I have said nothing different you can read my posts to see Tigresse. What I do take exception to is that one needs to live in a slave relationship and give financial tribute to a partner as this is a richer form of B.D.S.M. and that those who do not are somehow less worthy. If you see from that attitude that I angry and mad that i am not getting what i want then you are very much mistaken. I get what I want from my relationships i'm happy I have only been pointing out that my happiness is not less worthy than those who give tribute. I have never suggested that liking money makes you terrrible nor intimated that giving gifts is wrong. In fact in nearly every post I have made on this thread I have detailed how good a thing I think gifts are. Please argue against what I am saying not what you want tme to say so I can be portrayed as somehow women fearing or bitter. As I have said twice now I am bisexual and I expect the same from homosexual relationships as I do heterosexual ones. The male equivalent as I said in my last post to a tribute would be to demand I clean his house before i'm deemed worthy enough to go on a date. I would be equally dismayed at that. I am neither narrow minded nor in any way hyper focused and certainly not whining this is a thread about tributing and I am posting my own opinions on it nothing more.

SaharahEve -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 9:03:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CarrieO quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus No one here is advocating ANYONE handing over control of their bank account from day one. Regardless of how anyone feels about Texasmaam's post, what she was describing was a COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP and gifts freely given. LadyHibiscus, thank you for posting exactly what I read from the start. I'm surprised by the responses and assumptions made by many of the people on this thread. I read and re-read the original post and the one thing that continually catches my eye is this... quote: I could never thank you, manthing, for everything you do for Me, every day, in every way, to let Me know how much you care, how much you love Me, how much you appreciate and cherish our relationship. I love you. Thank you, from the bottom of My heart. I read this more to be an example to two people in a relationship and the man's desire to please his woman and her pleasure at his unselfish behavior. Plain and simple. I think it was just the use of the word tribute that sent the wheels of anger and heated debate/name-calling into motion. Thanks Ladies, well said. [:)]

SaharahEve -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 9:04:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse What I find interesting, and what led me to participating in this thread, even though I've never been focused on the financial aspects of dominance for myself (not saying I wouldn't, just haven't) are a few of the following thoughts. Much as Shakti pointed out, it is a power thing. Since the beginning of currency, it has been a tool/measure of power. If it was simply a matter of how the OP was worded, as some have used as an excuse for their participation in this thread, the thread topic would be a rarity, the same posters would not have a history of bashing the activity, and the thread very likely would not have run to 30plus pages. So I really have to call bullshit on that. For a person to identify as a slave, yet want to retain power is, TO ME, completely hypocritical. In my eyes, that makes them a bottom, not terribly submissive and most certainly NOT a slave. It is laughable that a person will give their physical well being, the very risk of life and limb, over to another, but wish to retain control of money, and still say they are submitting their all, as a slave. I have never had an M/s dynamic. I have been involved with submissive women in a D/s dynamic and to me there is a difference. If and when, the time comes that I decide I want a M/s dynamic with someone, you can bet your sweet ass, I am going to be in total control. Not just during the slap tickle fun. And, like most women, I won't expect, all, immediately. Just like any risky interaction between consenting adults, there is a learning curve. A gaining of trust. A knowing, that the M type is trustworthy and has the best interests of the s type at heart. Seems pretty simple to me. Something that the hetro female s types seem to get much easier. I know that a huge number of male M types control all the finances and it is just taken as "normal or natural". And before anyone starts, don't even try to twist that around into, "Yeah but that is an established.....whatever!" It is still an exchange of money and power so bleh. What I see, when I read these types of threads is men that want conditional sexual submission, mad that they are not getting what they want. They are angry that the women are not being fooled by the attempted power struggle and are hitting them exactly where it will hurt the most. The power of the almighty dollar. I am sorry, but if liking the power of money, liking what money can get me is wrong, then I am an evil bitch. If I were to decide that using a slave's hard earned income as part of our power play and it upset a few, so be it. I can live with that. IF, a submissive, slave, or just a really generous soul, decides to spend money on me, delight me, thrill me enough that I want to tell others about it, makes me a terrible human being, I can live with that too! Because quite frankly, ANYONE that is going to make that small facet of the whole that is me, such a huge focus to attack, they are not worth my, give a damn. There is a lot more to me, and every other woman that has posted on this forum. If some narrow minded s type is going to be so hyper focused on that one aspect, they are not worthy of serving me. Because there is an awful lot about me, and the other ladies here, that is warm, loving, generous, giving, sadistic, controlling and all the other wonderful things that combine into the creation of a really awesome dominant woman. Regardless of whether money is part of one or more of our, personal power exchanges. If an s type male does not like submitting the power of his almighty dollars to a D or M type woman, then he damned well better find a woman that either has so much she doesn't care about his, doesn't see the really delightful fun I can imagine in using his money to have control/power over him, understands that it is a sensitive issue for him. Or, realize that they are NOT submissive/slave material and look for tops to satisfy their desire for bottoming. Otherwise, quite the whining and suck it up. I wholeheartedly agree.

Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 9:07:28 AM)
The post you quoted from La Tigresse was aimed at me Sahara Eve why do you think I am any of the things in it?

LaTigresse -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 9:13:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail LT, That man would be a ME!!!!!!!!! I thought we covered this earlier. Ron [:D]

LaTigresse -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 9:15:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 The post you quoted from La Tigresse was aimed at me Sahara Eve why do you think I am any of the things in it? No it was not aimed at you. I simply forgot to put "using fast reply........." at the top. It was a general post about the thread. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 9:18:32 AM)
No apology neccesary La Tigresse the mistake was mine.

cloudboy -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 9:28:06 AM)
I always give him a hard time (nothing serious) on the boards, and I mean right from the start. I think we have a good rapport, but his writing is highly recognizable. No worries.... hope you guys are extremely well....

LadyNTrainer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 9:34:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: undergroundsea That is a fair question to ask. I have no issues if Manthing gives gifts to TexasMaam, or if she requires him to give tribute and he also wishes to do so. I think one reason this thread has taken such a course is because her post positions her dynamic as the true way, and denigrates those who do not do the same. I honestly didn't read it that way. I saw it as an expression of love and happiness between two people who are both unselfishly giving of themselves and what they have, and who are both very happy with their relationship. I'm afraid it is a very realistic observation that there are a lot of whiny, petulant, demanding men who want a woman to dress a certain way, top them a certain way, pay for all their own clothes and dungeon gear, be available to strangers instantly whenever they are wanted for kinky sex, and not demand anything back including common courtesy or friendship. Why is this such a prevalent meme? Any normal adult understands that you gotta give in order to get, and that means giving what you have. Your time, your attention, your emotional focus, your commitment, and yes, your real physical resources. You can get by if you skimp on one or two of those things, but not on all of them, and it really does seem like a lot of "submissive" men feel completely entitled to get a woman's time, attention and sexual energy while giving absolutely nothing in return including their own sexual energy which is turned entirely inward and self-focused. There's a ridiculous amount of that going around, as any domme on this site can testify who has gotten these frequent demands. There is a fundamental childishness to this expectation. The very young child does not have a concept of Other, except as it exists to serve his need. Mamma's breast is an endless well of comfort that simply belongs to him; he is entitled to it, and the idea that he must do anything to earn it is foreign at this age. The concept of Other is something he must learn as he grows and matures, the idea that there is such a thing as other people who are real and feeling and who have wants and needs also. A large part of socializing children as they grow up is about teaching them this very simple and basic concept. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work. I'm seeing a huge amount of what is essentially infantile grasping on adult sites, where there really seems to be a fundamental expectation on the man's part that the woman (Mamma's breast?) must be available for him on demand, simply because he demands it, without his having to expend any effort to please or impress an adult woman or to meet her needs. Of course this feeling of entitlement gets dressed up in various justifications, like "If you are a REAL domme, you would want to have kinky sex with me. You don't want to have instant kinky sex with me because you're just a money grubbing bitch. Fuck you." And when this strategy doesn't work, when the titty is denied, the toddler howls. I have seen an insane level of hatred and hostility from men after women say no. It is the tantrum of a toddler who feels so completely entitled to Mamma's breast that denying it to him makes him rage violently against her. This is not a normal, healthy or sane response when one adult says no to another. Yet it is the norm on adult sites when women say no to sexual demands made by complete strangers. It is also the norm to severely criticize and punish women who stand up and say, "This is what I want, this is what I demand for myself, if you do not give to me, I will not give to you." Why is this? Frankly I think it's a primal toddler-howling response at the idea that adult titty is not a boundless fountain that you are always entitled to while remaining completely selfish and childish. Any hint that Mamma has grown up - or more accurately that she's making you grow up - is terribly threatening on a very deep level and pushes all sorts of painful emotional buttons in the child-man. So naturally he throws a tantrum. And that's more or less what we have right here. [8\|]

ShaktiSama -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 9:58:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite Umm, Shakti, I really enjoy most of your posts, but I really disagree with you here. I think it's perfectly reasonable for men not to want to give major tribute to a woman they don't know well yet, or to be nervous about giving their girlfriend/Domme control of the finances, especially when the relationship is new. You're not disagreeing with anything I've said, you're disagreeing with the notion of tribute to strangers in particular. That has nothing to do with my argument, really--it's just one facet of the sort of the Money Thread phenomenon. [;)] I'm not speaking up in defense of tribute per se, as I've never asked for it. Nor have I ever said it was wrong or unreasonable to make personal choices about your personal relationships. I just don't see the automatic connection between making personal choices in your personal relationships, and making sweeping generalizations and moral judgments about the D/S dynamic that might exist outside your life, and which has nothing whatsoever to do with you. Feeling uncomfortable with surrendering one type of power or another in your dealings with dominants is as common as an old shoe, in this community. People have all sorts of limits. We have a whole social vocabulary that revolves around "limits" and the differences between hard ones, soft ones, etc.. But a particular sub having personal limits is not what this or ANY of these Money Threads is EVER about. Every domme-bashing post in a Money Thread is always overloaded with the word that signals moral judgment of people who are FAR outside your personal life and your personal sphere: "should". "I don't think Tribute SHOULD be expected." "I don't think dommes SHOULD judge a man's worth by his ability and willingness to give financial support in the relationship." "I don't think a submissive SHOULD have to contribute anything to the household/relationship beyond the price of his/her own food and upkeep." Etc., etc., ad nauseam. Whole lot of people with a whole lot of ideas of how things SHOULD be--not just for themselves and compatible partners, but for everyone in the whole damn world. Whole lot of people with a lot of opinions about what a dominant, male or female, SHOULD want, SHOULD need, SHOULD expect, SHOULD receive. Personally, I'm tired of it. My society has been telling me all my life who I should be, what I should want, what I should expect, what I should be grateful to receive, as a woman. The general summary of all these "shoulds" is that I, as a woman, should always expect and be satisfied with one thing: LESS. Less respect and acclaim for my achievements, less money for my work, less time for myself, less pleasure in the bedroom, less power in the relationship, less representation in politics, entertainment and spiritual life. Just plain LESS, all across the board. As I've said before--I don't personally give a crap about money. If I did, I wouldn't have entered a relationship with a man who was 18 years my junior, a broke college student and not pursuing any major that will produce phat lewt in the near future. The boykin's talents and his calling in life are never going to lead him to make mysterious business trips to Dubai from which he will return to shower me with gold. If that sort of service was important to me, or something I needed, I would have thought more about finances while selecting my personal love monkey. Nonetheless, the fact that I am different from other dommes does not mean that I am a better person or easier to serve. I take my own needs and wants very seriously, and I feel the same way that TexasMa'am does when my submissive gives his all to make me happy. I don't see a moral difference between one form of power/pleasure and control versus others. Consent is consent. Power is power. And devotion is a good quality in a man, regardless of the form it has to take.

ShaktiSama -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:11:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse And if the woman that requires a man submit his paycheck to her is a thief, what is a man that requires a woman submit her mouth, ass and other body parts, for his sexual gratification?[:D] Um...a heterosexual? No, wait. It can't be that easy. I know. A husband!

ElanSubdued -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:37:13 AM)
LadyHibiscus, quote: No one here is advocating ANYONE handing over control of their bank account from day one. Regardless of how anyone feels about Texasmaam's post, what she was describing was a COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP and gifts freely given. Agreed. This thread is now so diversified and divested from the OP that the OP is presently a mere backdrop of little consequence to the current discussions. Still, getting back to the OP then, what offended people of both sexes is the way TM displayed the gifts she'd received (as status icons) and her criticism of others (particularly men) who aren't in a financial position to give in the same way as her submissive. Yes, I'm repeating myself from previous posts. But geesh... I did find the OP entirely crass and, upon repeated readings, while I recognize the loving intent, I still find the approach used rather tactless at best. Elan.

ElanSubdued -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:38:33 AM)
quote: LaTigresse wrote: I have yet to see a 31 page thread that began as a dominant male waxing poetic on his female slave's excellent cock sucking ability and ended up bashing all male dominants for wanting their cocks sucked. OneMoreWaste wrote: Maybe because they're not quite crass enough to close it with a jibe about how any woman who won't suck cock to their satisfaction isn't a "real woman"? I bet that would result in a lively discussion. Yes. Lively indeed. :-) Elan.

ElanSubdued -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:40:12 AM)
Undergroundsea, quote: Many of the objections in this thread reduce to being financially used, especially from the point of introduction. There are plenty of threads or comments in this forum which voice an objection against being sexually used. When such objections against being sexually used are made, they are not challenged and, thus, there is not a lengthy back and forth discussion. In general, being used in an unwanted way feels disrespectful in an unwanted way. It is unclear to me how a person can object to being used (whether for sex or for anything else) and not understand why another might not wish to be used (whether for money or anything else) in an unwanted manner, or support the notion of one person using another in an unwanted manner. Of the many currents in this thread, you've clearly unmasked one. I couldn't agree more. Elan.

ElanSubdued -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:41:15 AM)
SaharahEve, quote: Some thoughts on the topic by some kept dog I happen to know well. :-) Poetry of desire and longing is trivial and virtually meaningless in a virtual word. To manifest your interest with a gift or monetary sum is a far more difficult test. But tribute means nothing when it's easy; the amount should be something that hurts -- something that is a sacrifice. Many contend that financial domination is impersonal, evil and absurd, but there are few things so personal and real as money, I believe. When it is given in the right spirit, when it is offered out of pure love and worship and not with the intent to prostitute, it is a beautiful thing. Exclude this part: "tribute means nothing when it's easy; the amount should be something that hurts -- something that is a sacrifice" and I largely agree. The reason for the exclusion is one hopes partners organize their lives in a way that each doesn't suffer extreme consequences while providing for the other's happiness. Certainly, sometimes emergencies happen and partners do what they must to support each other. Needlessly depleting one's own resources and ability to function is detrimental to all partners involved. I believe partners like being shown affection, but usually not with a mechanism that damages the other partner(s). Elan.

ElanSubdued -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:43:00 AM)
ShaktiSama, quote: "Available" is a strong word for the level of access that women have to any power other than sex in this society. If I want sexual power, I can get it by spending five minutes and less than 100 bucks at Victoria's Secret -- my culture's attitudes toward women and their bodies will handle the rest. If I want any other kind of power, I have to spend years of hard work and leverage thousands upon thousands of dollars to get an education, and then claw my way through workplaces which are often male dominant and female-hostile. You and I often agree, but here we don't. I do agree that there is (unfortunately) still inequality between the sexes in the workplace (and "powerplace"). This said, if you think men don't "spend years of hard work and leverage thousands upon thousands of dollars to get an education, and then claw their way through", you're mistaken. Case in point: your boy. Today's market is extremely competitive for both sexes. Nowadays, lots of professions favour women, are well paid, and are consequently female dominated. When considering a sideways step in my career path, I eventually abandoned a number of professions that interested me because I realized it was far more likely a woman would get hired for that job. Reverse sexism is alive and well (although admittedly not in balance). Sidenote: I found a reasonably-priced copy of Watchmen yesterday. Yes, the graphic novel. :-) Elan.

Arillis -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:45:11 AM)
Let us not fool ourselves with the belief that everyone comes to these boards is desperately seeking someone to physically, mentally or emotionally abuse them or separate them from their dollars. Or even with the intent of winning friends and influencing others.

aidan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:56:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued ShaktiSama, quote: "Available" is a strong word for the level of access that women have to any power other than sex in this society. If I want sexual power, I can get it by spending five minutes and less than 100 bucks at Victoria's Secret -- my culture's attitudes toward women and their bodies will handle the rest. If I want any other kind of power, I have to spend years of hard work and leverage thousands upon thousands of dollars to get an education, and then claw my way through workplaces which are often male dominant and female-hostile. You and I often agree, but here we don't. I do agree that there is (unfortunately) still inequality between the sexes in the workplace (and "powerplace"). This said, if you think men don't "spend years of hard work and leverage thousands upon thousands of dollars to get an education, and then claw their way through", you're mistaken. Case in point: your boy. Today's market is extremely competitive for both sexes. Nowadays, lots of professions favour women, are well paid, and are consequently female dominated. When considering a sideways step in my career path, I eventually abandoned a number of professions that interested me because I realized it was far more likely a woman would get hired for that job. Reverse sexism is alive and well (although admittedly not in balance). Sidenote: I found a reasonably-priced copy of Watchmen yesterday. Yes, the graphic novel. :-) Elan. I feel I have to speak up here Elan since you have invoked me (like Y'golonac! Only not as inevitable-death-y). It's not necessarily that the price of education is outright better for men, but men do have an easier time of getting scholarships in various fields. Mistress is got Her Bachelor's and is working on Her Master's in a science, a science that has been predominantly male for it's short span of history. A quick look at the number of recipients for scholarships, grants and research funding compared to applicants will show that there is a heavy weighting towards males, by predominantly male professors. I've recognized since my college career started that though there are more women in the school-space now, they still have a harder time of things. Majority numbers don't always translate to change when the ruling minority (in this case, academia and administration) are still locked in the old ways.

LaTigresse -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:56:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued ShaktiSama, quote: "Available" is a strong word for the level of access that women have to any power other than sex in this society. If I want sexual power, I can get it by spending five minutes and less than 100 bucks at Victoria's Secret -- my culture's attitudes toward women and their bodies will handle the rest. If I want any other kind of power, I have to spend years of hard work and leverage thousands upon thousands of dollars to get an education, and then claw my way through workplaces which are often male dominant and female-hostile. You and I often agree, but here we don't. I do agree that there is (unfortunately) still inequality between the sexes in the workplace (and "powerplace"). This said, if you think men don't "spend years of hard work and leverage thousands upon thousands of dollars to get an education, and then claw their way through", you're mistaken. Case in point: your boy. Today's market is extremely competitive for both sexes. Nowadays, lots of professions favour women, are well paid, and are consequently female dominated. When considering a sideways step in my career path, I eventually abandoned a number of professions that interested me because I realized it was far more likely a woman would get hired for that job. Reverse sexism is alive and well (although admittedly not in balance). Sidenote: I found a reasonably-priced copy of Watchmen yesterday. Yes, the graphic novel. :-) Elan. When the balance gets tipped, we can discuss this issue with some semblance of sincerity.

aidan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/26/2009 10:58:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arillis Let us not fool ourselves with the belief that everyone comes to these boards is desperately seeking someone to physically, mentally or emotionally abuse them or separate them from their dollars. Or even with the intent of winning friends and influencing others. No, some clearly come because they are far too cowardly to spew their bile within in reach of those who would rebuke them, sometimes brutally and physically.

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