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RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/24/2006 6:24:36 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
...trying... really... hard.... not .... to... post... incase of.... repeating...myself...


Peace and Rapture

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SweetEscravo)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 4:41:25 AM   
bear372217355


Posts: 94
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Having survived a catholic school as a child and being a Native Canadian, I have an extremely dark view of the church and see no humour or comparison to our lifestyle fundamenatly.

My Grandfather, a product of the 'residencial schools', told me stories that could shatter the coldest heart, I was born left handed, but am now fully right handed, the imprint of the rosery cross on my forehead that lasted a week, the swollen knuckles, the humiliation, all NONCONSENTUAL. There is no comparison between the church and BDSM. Here we ask for what we want and consent to it. As a youth my family, friends and I were subject to nonconsentual abuses.

Despite the catholic church's attempt to drive the history out of my Grandfather, they failed, he helped me find who I was using the traditional ways. My family and I follow those same ways today. Everyone is free to choose which path they follow. Those who choose a path and then degrade others for the paths they choose, do there own choice a disservice. Being a well rounded individual, I have exposed my children to all aspects of religion and culture without prejudice. I have shown them everything I can, so they can choose for themselves. Choices are our fundimental freedom and exposure to the vast aray of lifes religions and cultures only removes bigotry and hate.

When I took sociology during my under graduate in law school, I wrote a paper on religion. The title, Religion causes hate, Hate causes war. A fact based paper that was hard to disprove. Many of my more religious class mates tried to dispell my theory, only a few got close. Not that I'm some sort of legal wiz kid. Religions the world over have just made it so darn easy to prove.


I'm glad there are so many non-threatening christians out here. At the very least, it shows that there is hope for that faith.

I have read about how cold the catholic church is or was in this thread, but our new and more dangerous threat is from the evanglists. That is GW's faith of choice. As strong as the catholic church is, the evanglists are fear mongering, neo fite, christian zealots. They wheeled their numbers to exert their combined theologies on the masses. Fear not the catholics, they're just a walking contradiction, fear the evanglists, the modern day crusaders of truth, justice and the christian American way of life.

_____________________________

Collared, caged and the sole property of Lady Elizabeth.

(in reply to SweetEscravo)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 12:32:31 PM   
mitsu


Posts: 67
Joined: 9/7/2005
From: New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Christian mindset can mesh very well with BDSM, as many of the teachings seem to express ideals of guilt, submission, obedience and so on. Throw in the forbidden fruit dynamic and you've got quite an amalgam. In this there is an ironic and no doubt pleasurable symbiosis.



Not to mention crucifixion...

_____________________________

The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists - that is why they invented hell.
Bertrand Russell

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 1:47:27 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		There are bigoted, biased, blinkered, hate mongering arseholes in every faith or belief known to man kind. tell you what... I'm proudly Pagan/Wiccan/Shaman/Mage/Sorcerer and completely A-Moral.. AND I'm bloody proud of my Christian friends too for they have seen what half or their organizations haven't seen or ignore.. They have seen that Christ demonstrated how to treat others but didn'y abuse or run others down.. I can live with that That's why I say>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
“You gotta play the game. It’s all in the game and how you play it!”

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to mitsu)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 2:24:58 PM   
bear372217355


Posts: 94
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		So who or what, was that in response too?

_____________________________

Collared, caged and the sole property of Lady Elizabeth.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 2:29:50 PM   
Elli


Posts: 5
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting. I am Jewish and view the primary symbol of Christianity as a Jew nailed to a cross and tortured. Lots of mixed signals.

[ I remember years ago when a priest told me BDSM in any form was evil. Are you all just changing your minds or does BDSM somehow relate to Christian thought in a way I was unaware?
[/quote]

(in reply to SweetEscravo)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 3:07:22 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bear372217355

So who or what, was that in response too?


Does it need to be iresponse to anyone?

It was a statement of fact! Like it or lump it, argue the case or agree with it, respond to it or ignore it, that choice is yours bear372217355.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 2/25/2006 3:08:42 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to bear372217355)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 3:13:11 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elli

Interesting. I am Jewish and view the primary symbol of Christianity as a Jew nailed to a cross and tortured. Lots of mixed signals.

[ I remember years ago when a priest told me BDSM in any form was evil. Are you all just changing your minds or does BDSM somehow relate to Christian thought in a way I was unaware?




Hi Elli,

Not so long ago I was wearing my Lodge pendent which is a circle surrouding a hexagram on which is imposed a pentagram, when visiting an establishment. The Born Again Christian Pastor running the place came out and screamed at me ther the evil six pointed atar (The hexagram, ther Star of David, the Seal of Solomon) was the sign of Satan and he knew this because God had appeared and told him so persoally.......................................I just asked him what shit he was smoking..

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Elli)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 3:50:41 PM   
bear372217355


Posts: 94
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: bear372217355

So who or what, was that in response too?


Does it need to be iresponse to anyone?

It was a statement of fact! Like it or lump it, argue the case or agree with it, respond to it or ignore it, that choice is yours bear372217355.


I was just looking for a frame of reference on it that's all. But seeing as you invited me to do so.

I argue it is not a "statement of fact". It is merely your opinion. As the descendant of a Native Medicine Man, and quite active in the Native community here in sunny Canada, I have seen none of that distinctly European religious hate in our traditional "religions", for a lack of a better term. Although, I'm sure it may exist within a few of our elders, it seldomly raises its ugly head, as it does in the "organized" religions and is probably the after effects of abuses at the hands of men and women claiming to be spreading the word of "god" or doling out punishment (read: abuse) in the name of christianity. And it certainly doesn't come along with abuses like child molestation,censorship,torture,murder,the violation of peoples civil liberties,the perpetual enslavement of entire cultures(ie; Africa, famine and blood shead and the catholic church still won't give up on not allowing people to use condoms and spreads lies about them, http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html ).

I'm sure you have many friends in various religions, as do I, that do not follow the doctarine to the "T", but that does not negate the fact that these abuses are still perpatrated at an alarming rate. Further, more they are covered up by the church and not believed by the flock at large.

With that said, I'm guessing by your picture, you are of European descent. And therefore could not possibly have one shred of an idea of where I'm coming from. Because of your history, I'm sure you may have an enlightend sence of it, but I doubt that you know what the recieving end of seamingly endless abuse is like as a child, or have to live with the nightmares, or have any idea of what it is like to know your people once walked free and are now and forever more, living in occupied territory on their own land as a concured people.

And that sir, is a provable "statement of fact".

_____________________________

Collared, caged and the sole property of Lady Elizabeth.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 4:01:42 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		In part bear you are dead correct. I was born to the "Right" family which includes being a member of nobility. Yet for all that I am by birth a Celtic Tribsman and by adoption a member of a Lakota family..... However I still say what I stated was fact in that from a sociological and psychological aspect the people I described are to be found to some degree in all cultures. Yet from a practical aspect I conceed the point to you and no I haven't walked in your shoes nor can I place your head on my shoulders, I have to rely on you for that input, especially as I have long respected your posts and the way you come accross. Thank you for teaching me some thing of your history and about you.. Perhaps some where and some how we may sit in a medicine circle together before the great bear takes me to where the sky meets the ground...

< Message edited by IronBear -- 2/25/2006 4:03:17 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to bear372217355)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 4:52:08 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elli

Interesting. I am Jewish and view the primary symbol of Christianity as a Jew nailed to a cross and tortured. Lots of mixed signals.



Interesting, I wear an empty cross, as do non Catholic Christians. Which represents the resurrection and eternal life. We celebrate the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, not his death.
Crucifiction was not unique to Jesus Christ, it was the accepted method of capitol punishment. at the time. Not only for Jews. Personally, I no more like the image of Jesus on the cross than I do the image of Joe Shmoe in the electric chair. They are the same to me.


mbmbn


_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Elli)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/25/2006 6:51:55 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
What happened to Native American Peoples is vile.

What happened to Black Americans and other sufferers from slavery and ignorance.

What happened to the Holocaust Victims is vile.

What happens in Jerusalem is a nightmare.

What happens to some african villages in the name of progress by instilling 'christian' schools is shocking - but a sad reality based on human ignorance allowing it to continue to happen.


But blaming catholisism or christianity or any number of religions for what people do and are capable of - it naive at best.

Religon does not kill people, or torture them, or force them, or hate or create wars. PEOPLE DO.
And people who use religious hatred only perpetuate the myths... instead of portraying their own spiritual beliefs in a positive manner.

The cross isnt a negative symbol - it is a positive one...

BDSM has links with christianity in the same way as BDSM has links with buddhism... or paganism... or islam.
Its subjective.

But portraying any religion, with just the negative, just blinds a person to the acceptance of anothers belief... and that causes the problems... and then that just leads you back to the beginning again.

And talking of the beginning... thats Love.

Peace and Rapture


quote:

Once every hundred years Jesus of Nazareth meets Jesus of the Christian in a garden among the hills of Lebanon and they talk long.
And each time Jesus of Nazareth goes away saying to Jesus of the Christian:

"My friend, I fear we shall never, never agree..."

Sand and Foam


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to bear372217355)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/26/2006 4:16:15 AM   
bear372217355


Posts: 94
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

In part bear you are dead correct. I was born to the "Right" family which includes being a member of nobility. Yet for all that I am by birth a Celtic Tribsman and by adoption a member of a Lakota family..... However I still say what I stated was fact in that from a sociological and psychological aspect the people I described are to be found to some degree in all cultures. Yet from a practical aspect I conceed the point to you and no I haven't walked in your shoes nor can I place your head on my shoulders, I have to rely on you for that input, especially as I have long respected your posts and the way you come accross. Thank you for teaching me some thing of your history and about you.. Perhaps some where and some how we may sit in a medicine circle together before the great bear takes me to where the sky meets the ground...


That was not the response I was preparing for. I woke up this morning, turned on the computer and went to the bathroom to put on my war paint ( sorry for the bad hollywood imagery), only to come back and be humbled, by respect and empathy. Now where is that peace pipe, kanicanic and make up remover.

Sir, from what I've read and picked up from you, I would gladly treat you to a good smoke and a warm place at the counsil fire. My people are the fire keepers and we keep a good fire burning for all true warriors and good spirits.

Darkangel, You are absolutely correct. I sometimes fall from my own path and forget myself. I dislike those that degrade or chastise my beliefs and lifestyle and yet I sometimes act just like them, no excuses, I let my emotions get the better of me, that was wrong, my most humble appologies ma'am.

I do have one question for you though darkangel, how did you manage to rack up 2336 posts in 25 days? Your profile says you joined 01/30/06. Umm, I'm a posting whore, but that's got the best of us beat by a long shot.

_____________________________

Collared, caged and the sole property of Lady Elizabeth.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/26/2006 5:45:19 AM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetEscravo

Something just occured to me. Not only on this site, but on many many others relating to BDSM, their are either a great deal of Christians actively posting"

Actually, I think there is a very broad representation here of nearly ever belief conceivable, which sort of proves out that although many have their own spritual guidance system, they don't let it deter them from engaging in life matters of their own chosing. I have much more respect for those who can differentiate between what an outside influence says is right and what they feel in their heart is right. Those who follow anything blindly simply because it is taught to be right, need to regroup and decide for themselves if thought processes from centuries before still apply to them and their life expectations. Life is what you make of it, make it follow the path you want to travel. Myself, I don't adhere to any particular belief, sometimes I don't only dance to the beat of a different drummer, I may dance to an entirely different band, but I know in my heart what is right and wrong and how I should treat others...I don't need an outside set of rules to dictate this to me.

The fact that the BDSM community is made up of so many varieties of folks, with so many different backgrounds and beliefs is quite refreshing actually, it shows that we have a common bond in spite of our differences...not something that many groups can boast about.


Footnote...JohnWarren posted;
quote:

I was talking to one of my activist friends and fellow motorcyclists yesterday.
Ha ha..I knew there was something familiar about you..lol..go figure, another biker.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to SweetEscravo)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/26/2006 8:14:34 AM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Petruchio

Hey, blush! Haven't seen you recently!




I've been...erm...tied up.

I'll be home tuesday.

thanks for noticing!

*smooch*

(in reply to Petruchio)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/26/2006 10:15:03 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		angel, you're back!?!?

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/27/2006 2:59:39 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

I do have one question for you though darkangel, how did you manage to rack up 2336 posts in 25 days? Your profile says you joined 01/30/06. Umm, I'm a posting whore, but that's got the best of us beat by a long shot.


hmmmmmm... post whore - I like that ....chukling...

Been here a couple of years now. The profiles on the otherside of CM (profiles)have no link to this(message forum). That darkangel is in the usa... I am in the UK... and been here a couple of years now, if you check the forums ID you can see. But I can understand how the confusion occured.*

OK... that was officially useless information, lol.

No need to apologise - I think its understandable we all feel anger at atrocities of any kinds. Just helps to try to remember that it man/woman that uses religions, faiths and nationalities as an excuse to promote violence, not the religion/faith/nationality itself.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to bear372217355)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/27/2006 3:01:21 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

angel, you're back!?!?



Thank You for noticing LaM...
Ach... You know me... certain posts I cannot resist...

Love to You and Yours

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Christians everywhere! - 2/27/2006 4:33:05 AM   
ItsTimeBendOver


Posts: 9
Joined: 2/10/2006
Status: offline 		The answer to this question is as complex as it is simple. Yes! I too feel that large numbers of any particular "interest group" will ultimately show up statistically in mainstream life, unless the particular group stays totally within its own community. Another aspect is that "labels" can often be deceiving. Calling oneself a Christian does not make oneself a Christian,
as calling oneself a Dominant or Submissive does not make oneself a true practitioner of the BDSM lifestyle. Yes! I do realize the semantics regarding my previous sentence. Now a short expansion:

The early church somewhere along the line came to the conclusion that sex and sexuality was designed for procreation and procreation only. Aspects of sexuality outside of that narrow definition lead to consequences. We are all born as sexual creatures, it is gift of nature for some, and a curse of nature for others. It seems rather obvious to those who are in this lifestyle that in many cases, the need to be here out weighs the want to be here. So to end with a question ... From what source does those needs arise? A supreme being of Good or you know who?

(in reply to Petruchio)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Christians everywhere! - 10/6/2008 2:40:56 PM   
iamherproperty


Posts: 15
Joined: 10/1/2008
Status: offline 		i can not get it
how can i obey and worship Christ without my  idolatry to the Mistress ?
if i am the  Christ's slave i am not a  Mistress's slave
if i am a Mistress's slave - i am not a Christ's slave


(in reply to DragonNphoenix)
Profile   Post #: 80
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