RE: Define satan? (Full Version)

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LillyoftheVally -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:03:42 AM)

Thank you Calla, that was actually going to be my next point, also many of the Pagan faiths have no evil figure and indeed neither for most Buddhists.



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:08:43 AM)

that is why I added 'some"..for Wicca. The ones I 'know don't believe in satan. They see evil though.
Never understood how that is mingled in when there is no "bad"counter part.
( I tried to read about it on the net, but as you said...you only find bad crap about calling Wicca as satanisme.)

The problems with religions of what ever kind...so many people participate and they have al their views.

Religions will call other religions evil anyway. Everything unknown and theirs is bad. Sad.

ps
The horned one..sounds dark though. As wicca acepts his light aswell as dark sides......I am curious what he would look like in bad temper.



sirsholly -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:10:07 AM)

Satan is the evil that is the flip side of the good.

I do believe the entity exists, but i think the ol' boy is grossly overplayed by certain religions ("Put all your money in the collection plate and we will pray that Satan stays away")



FullCircle -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:29:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend
The horned one..sounds dark though. As wicca acepts his light aswell as dark sides......I am curious what he would look like in bad temper.

I think you have to look at the linking of symbolism between the Pagan faiths and Christianity that St. Patrick adopted during the christening of Northern Europe to understand how what was once seen as a positive thing slowly became viewed as something negative. Quite insidious it is really.



Apocalypso -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:29:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend
hinduism
buddhisme
paganism ( wicca..some)
christianity
islam
judaism

Several of those  don't have an evil counterpart to God at all.  And some others don't have a Satan figure- they  may have tempters or spirits but not in the way Christianity does.  (Dualism would never have arisen as a heresy in most religions. It's very contextual).



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:32:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend
hinduism
buddhisme
paganism ( wicca..some)
christianity
islam
judaism

Several of those  don't have an evil counterpart to God at all.  And some others don't have a Satan figure- they  may have tempters or spirits but not in the way Christianity does.  (Dualism would never have arisen as a heresy in most religions. It's very contextual).



that is what I said.in the post before.
But satan or what ever name..most have some one to blame for the bad or soemone who does bad.
it is not the name that counts..but the deeds and the example set....for followers of religion learn from



LillyoftheVally -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:32:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend
The horned one..sounds dark though. As wicca acepts his light aswell as dark sides......I am curious what he would look like in bad temper.

I think you have to look at the linking of symbolism between the Pagan faiths and Christianity that St. Patrick adopted during the christening of Northern Europe to understand how what was once seen as a positive thing slowly became viewed as something negative. Quite insidious it is really.


Very good point FC, many pagan symbols/icons whatever were distorted by Christianity, Satan is a very noticeable one as is the imagery of the term 'witch' and even simple things like hot cross buns



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:33:35 AM)

quote:

The horned one..sounds dark though


Actually, The Horned One is neither light nor dark... he is HE. Simply the embodiment of masculine energy. Think "stag" rather than "demon" and you'll be on the right track.

quote:

But satan or what ever name..most have some one to blame for the bad or soemone who does bad.
it is not the name that counts..but the deeds and the example set....for followers of religion learn from


And this is where applying this to Wicca doesn't work, because Wicca really -doesn't- have "someone to blame for the bad or someone who does bad". Good vs. bad are concepts of duality, and Wicca is a non-dualistic path. Wicca acknowledges that everyone does things that -seem- good to them, but may have untoward consequences. The Wicca are asked to -consider-, as best they can, trying not to -intentionally- do things that would harm another (An it harm none, do what you will), but there is no sense of polarizing good -or- evil into the manifestations of divine energy. As an example, Kali Ma is understood and embraced among the Wicca, particularly among female practitioners who are striving for a sense of balancing power in their own lives. Kali Ma has had a bad rap for years because of the perception of her as a destructive deity, however, once her mythology is examined, one realizes that she is always referred to as the Creator/Destroyer, and that her destructive nature is more along the lines of the firestorm that awakens the pine seed and frees it... a destruction that burns away all that is irrelevant, worn out, or useless, and which prepares the ground beneath for new growth.

Dame Calla

DC



stella41b -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:34:52 AM)

Satan is a mythical figure believed in by those who are unable to accept full responsibility for their own thoughts, speech, and actions.

Good and evil are component elements of life, which brings us both joy and suffering. The difference between good and evil is arbitrary, reliant on perception, discrimination and judgment but also coloured by intention, reason and motivation.




Apocalypso -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:36:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend


that is what I said.in the post before.
But satan or what ever name..most have some one to blame for the bad or soemone who does bad.
it is not the name that counts..but the deeds and the example set....for followers of religion learn from
If you're going to argue that "deeds and the example set" qualify as being the equivalent of Satan, it's not just religions.  It would mean utilitarianism qualifies.  As does the tabloid press.

That's far too broad.



LillyoftheVally -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:36:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

The horned one..sounds dark though


Actually, The Horned One is neither light nor dark... he is HE. Simply the embodiment of masculine energy. Think "stag" rather than "demon" and you'll be on the right track.

DC


Yup, it is like many of the greek gods, they are not infallible, they cock up, piss each other off, do good things and bad things, just like humans do. The dichotomy is not there in all faiths, the simple divide of good and bad does not have to be present for a faith to exist, paganism and Buddhism and other 'new age' religions are far more gray in their classifications



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:38:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend
The horned one..sounds dark though. As wicca acepts his light aswell as dark sides......I am curious what he would look like in bad temper.

I think you have to look at the linking of symbolism between the Pagan faiths and Christianity that St. Patrick adopted during the christening of Northern Europe to understand how what was once seen as a positive thing slowly became viewed as something negative. Quite insidious it is really.


Perhaps. But if you read about the history of wicca/neo paganism you will see where it comes from (although no one seems to be sure). And the comparison about the Lord of the Dead/ The horned one..is not so weird.
It reminds me how Christianity looks at Jesus and how the Islam looks at jesus. The same..but not the same. Might this be the same for the ëvil"one too. It is just how religion evolved.
(interesting topic..at leat I have material to read this weekend)



Starbuck09 -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:41:59 AM)

I was having this debate the other day Stella. I agree that good is entirely subjective however I think that for evil there is a constant if not precisely a definition. For arguments sake take a die hard S.S. officer He commits what we consider atrocities on military and civilian personnel alike, but he does so because he firmly believes this is the right thing to do and out of devotion to the cause for  which he fights. That'snot evil, I might disagree with his sentiments and actions but that is just my opinion, subjective. However another German who believes that these things are terrible but participates regardless [for whatever reason] is commiting evil acts as he is making a concious decision to contravene his moral code and so commit evil in his own eyes. I think evil or wrong is present whenever we choose to do something that we personally feel is morally repugnant.



Starbuck09 -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:43:02 AM)

Broad sheet surely apocalypso?



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:45:04 AM)

quote:

If you're going to argue that "deeds and the example set" qualify as being the equivalent of Satan, it's not just religions.

you agree with my arguement then
good  lol

but yes...I see that as role for Satan or similar bad in religion as example.  That some abuse it or use it to scare people..is a different story



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:47:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

I was having this debate the other day Stella. I agree that good is entirely subjective however I think that for evil there is a constant if not precisely a definition. For arguments sake take a die hard S.S. officer He commits what we consider atrocities on military and civilian personnel alike, but he does so because he firmly believes this is the right thing to do and out of devotion to the cause for  which he fights. That'snot evil, I might disagree with his sentiments and actions but that is just my opinion, subjective. However another German who believes that these things are terrible but participates regardless [for whatever reason] is commiting evil acts as he is making a concious decision to contravene his moral code and so commit evil in his own eyes. I think evil or wrong is present whenever we choose to do something that we personally feel is morally repugnant.


mm yes. nice example
I guess good and bad are the way others see you. Not how you see yourself.



lronitulstahp -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:50:34 AM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuTiTfbfy7Q

.
quote:

You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone.
i love that line from The Usual Suspects....



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:51:01 AM)

quote:

Lord of the Dead/ The horned one


Um... again... The Lord of the Dead often isn't a "Lord", and isn't related to The Horned One, who is a deity, predominantly, of the early British Isles, and is, actually, a sex and creation deity. He is also called Herne, the Hunter, and is known in other pantheons as The Green Man, Cernunnos, Pan, Dionysus, Bacchus...

The deities of the dead typically include Anubis (Male), Demeter (Female), Kali Ma (Female -- also a Birth Goddess), Freya (Female - also a birth goddess), Hecate (Female - also a birth/family goddess), Hel (female), Meng Po (Female), The Morrighan (Female), Osiris (Male), Whiro (Male), Yama (Male).




TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:56:09 AM)

You may say "umm again" others provide the info I posted.
now we have to guess what the truth is..like with any other religion. Difficult...as there are so many ways to view them



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:59:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

I was having this debate the other day Stella. I agree that good is entirely subjective however I think that for evil there is a constant if not precisely a definition. For arguments sake take a die hard S.S. officer He commits what we consider atrocities on military and civilian personnel alike, but he does so because he firmly believes this is the right thing to do and out of devotion to the cause for  which he fights. That'snot evil, I might disagree with his sentiments and actions but that is just my opinion, subjective. However another German who believes that these things are terrible but participates regardless [for whatever reason] is commiting evil acts as he is making a concious decision to contravene his moral code and so commit evil in his own eyes. I think evil or wrong is present whenever we choose to do something that we personally feel is morally repugnant.


I think I can concur with this. I think that "evil" is that state of mind where we do something that we -know- is, in our own ethical framework, -wrong-... and we do it intentionally and with forethought.

Dame Calla



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