RE: Define satan? (Full Version)

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FullCircle -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:02:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend
Perhaps. But if you read about the history of wicca/neo paganism you will see where it comes from (although no one seems to be sure). And the comparison about the Lord of the Dead/ The horned one..is not so weird.
It reminds me how Christianity looks at Jesus and how the Islam looks at jesus. The same..but not the same. Might this be the same for the ëvil"one too. It is just how religion evolved.
(interesting topic..at leat I have material to read this weekend)

It does make me kind of sad in a way because people had their faith and people far more manipulative and intelligent came along and at first persuaded them they were worshipping the same god when in reality they were whitewashing people's faith and means of worship away, those who continued to practice their original faith were then subject to much harsher methods that would have made the crucifixion of Jesus seem like eating chocolate cake.

Let us not over romance things though because I know that the Pagan faiths were born of a feudal war like culture where disputes were settled by one person ending up dead. Also Christianity brought literacy and gave people the ability to record their stakes in things and establish a set of laws to resolve conflicts (although these laws always favoured a small handful of people with the majority being exploited.) So ultimately society moved forward at a faster pace than it would have otherwise.

Still though I'm left with the question do the ends justify the means? It would be equivalent to a modern westerner pandering to the beliefs of an obscure African tribe and manipulating them into following the western economic system. Although war like these ancient Europeans had the right to develop their culture in their own time and that was removed from them. Obviously we would not all be here now if history wasn't in this form but does it matter how quickly a culture advances in the grand scheme of things?


-e



Starbuck09 -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:05:32 AM)

Turbo that's not quite what i'm saying old boy. I'm saying that what others think of your actions does not define them as good or evil, it is what you think of your own actions that do that. In your own mind one constantly judges one's own choices and is either vindicated morally or damned according to a personal court.



Aneirin -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:07:29 AM)

Satan, is the dark side of Christianity.

From what I understand Christianity is bi polar, God, the light on one side, Satan, the dark on the other side, the reality of life is to steer down the middle, and keep a balance between light and dark and there in balance the two might cancel themselves out and one just exists.

I don't see it as that much different from paganism really



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:11:16 AM)

I see..I indeed misread .
( no need for the old boy stuff, call me Damian)

So what is law then. Law ( others) define things as good and evil.
(some laws are even based on religions)
In your example the SS-man was not wrong ( in his mind)..although others think he was. So what was it in the end. Were the lawyers who hanged him evil, because he didn't do anything wrong( in his mind)?



Starbuck09 -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:19:33 AM)

No worries Damian, law is what society deems as right. By choosing to live in a society one accepts the boundaries of the structure you reside in and in turn accepts the consequences for transgressing against them. Law in Britian is what british society deems is right and wrong. In Saudi Arabia there are great differences. Neither is right, it is just that the two respective societies believe their ideals are just.
Following on from that our young S.S. officer is wrong ONLY in the opinions of others he is emphatically not wrong per se. Sadly for Otto the third reich lost the  and the people he had passed judgmenton in turn judged him. The lawyers who hanged him were certainly not evil as they too thought what they were doing  was right.  That's thepoint Damien in the end what is right cannot be judged as there is no objective yardstick against which to measure it.Even in the sanctity of one's mind the best you can do is to acknowledge that what you have you believe to be right. Evil is slightly diffeent as you can judge yourself. You know when you have commited evil as you know when you compromise your own moral code.



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:20:09 AM)

quote:

Still though I'm left with the question do the ends justify the means? It would be equivalent to a modern westerner pandering to the beliefs of an obscure African tribe and manipulating them into following the western economic system. Although war like these ancient Europeans had the right to develop their culture in their own time and that was removed from them. Obviously we would not all be here now if history wasn't in this form but does it matter how quickly a culture advances in the grand scheme of things?

That is a very interesting question.
Hard to answer also.
Some questions are answered in a docu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
Perhaps you saw it.



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:24:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

No worries Damian, law is what society deems as right. By choosing to live in a society one accepts the boundaries of the structure you reside in and in turn accepts the consequences for transgressing against them. Law in Britian is what british society deems is right and wrong. In Saudi Arabia there are great differences. Neither is right, it is just that the two respective societies believe their ideals are just.
Following on from that our young S.S. officer is wrong ONLY in the opinions of others he is emphatically not wrong per se. Sadly for Otto the third reich lost the  and the people he had passed judgmenton in turn judged him. The lawyers who hanged him were certainly not evil as they too thought what they were doing  was right.  That's thepoint Damien in the end what is right cannot be judged as there is no objective yardstick against which to measure it.Even in the sanctity of one's mind the best you can do is to acknowledge that what you have you believe to be right. Evil is slightly diffeent as you can judge yourself. You know when you have commited evil as you know when you compromise your own moral code.


There were some shootings in schools. The kids sometimes were bullied and took revenge.
Ok..bullying is not good. But shooting people, is that justified then..if we take the previous example and project it on this one?
Ok..we can "understand"  the killer...but for me..this is plain bad. Propably the killer thinks...I took vengeance on the bad.
Still my mind says ..while understanding..this is wrong/bad.
How do you see it?



Starbuck09 -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:37:08 AM)

Damien I think you slightly misunderstand. There are plenty of things that I think are wrong. The point is I only THINK they are wrong there is no way to check the veracity of my logic. The young man shooting up the  school is in my opinion terribly wrong and I would do all in my power to stop him. Clearly however he feels differently and there is no way to tell whose viewpoint trumps the other. Take two men in a duel over their differing morals. They turn and fire and one drops dead. Is the victor morally vindicated? Does this triumph over his adversary indicate celestial favour for his belief system? Of course it does'nt all it demonstrates is that the victor was quicker on the draw. his values are given validity by noone but himself. When I do something I do it because I believe it is right. Unless there is a sea change in British foreign policy I will fight the taliban next year. I choose to do so because I believe it is the right thing to do. However i accept that the taliban themselves have radically different views on this to myself. They are not wrong, I believe they are wrong which is entirely different.



Aneirin -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:37:56 AM)

I suppose it could be asked, who turns to satan, I don't for one second believe it is the disgruntled, desperate and poor of society, for I know academics were involved in the past, what sort of people seek a truth there ?



Apocalypso -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:47:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I suppose it could be asked, who turns to satan, I don't for one second believe it is the disgruntled, desperate and poor of society, for I know academics were involved in the past, what sort of people seek a truth there ?
I think the disgruntled is more likely, which could include academics.  Largely though, outside a few kids in small towns, the media 'cat sacrificing evil worshipping' Satanists don't really exist.  My understanding is that Satanists fall into three main categories.

  1. Those who see Satan as a symbol of rebellion and individuality as opposed to an actual figure.  That'd be the Layveyan crowd.  Mostly they're atheists.  Satan is a philosophical viewpoint for them.
  2. Those who see him as a pre-Christian deity, although the details differ.  Some see him as another name for Set.  They're the most pagan of the Satanists in my view.
  3. The Gnostic Satanists.  I know almost nothing about these.



FullCircle -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:51:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend
That is a very interesting question.
Hard to answer also.
Some questions are answered in a docu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
Perhaps you saw it.

No I've not read that, sadly.

History is also very obscure and as we know often it relies on accounts of events as witnessed by the dominant society within certain periods of time.

I was also thinking about how sometimes it is argued that people assume what they like from a religious text. i.e. during the darkest periods of Christianity you still had the same basic texts and people were doing evil in its names in a way that is unimaginable today. I wonder that if there were a perfect spiritual text with the core values of peace, harmony and caring it would be so simple as to allow no evil ever to be done in its name. It would be a story so simple nobody could misunderstand it's meaning regardless of how advanced the civilisation was that read it.

This is why I don't believe in religious texts because at some point you come to realise that the hand that penned the first copy was an imperfect human incapable of delivering a message from god without their own personal gist added.



tazzygirl -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 7:08:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

Just curious here?
 
We have been trying to define God, and we if are going to define Him, then we should define satan also.[sm=flameout.gif]
 
If we have Good, then we know we have evil.
We know according to Gods laws that satan is here also.
 
Do we just believe that evil is because someone just feels that way?
Their mind is not right?
 
What makes evil tick??
 
Always, Ant~[sm=seesaw.gif]


Just like life and death... death is the absence of life.

god and satan... no such thing as satan... there is god then the absence of god.



UncleNasty -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 9:40:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

`fr`

I think satan is a concept used as a threat and threats are basically bullshit wrapped up in pretty paper. It's the idea of fear being a motivator to do the right thing when doing the right thing is motivation enough.

So, my definition: satan = bullshit.




That fits pretty well with Deist founding fathers beliefs that "God" is/was "the ringing bell of truth."

Uncle Nasty



DemonKia -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 11:05:23 AM)

Buddhism does not feature 'deities' . . . . . There are branches of Buddhism (notably Tibetan Buddhism) that do feature magical beings & myths, but basic Buddhism is essentially atheistic .. . .. .

Taoism also is 'deity free' . . . . . . Taoism is interesting with regards to this discussion, as it is concerned with finding balance between the extremes, whatever extremes. The Tao regularly points to how humans carry both edges of any dichotomy within themselves, it's kind of a major theme of the Tao . . . . .

In my experience, Satan is kinda irrelevant outside of the particular belief frameworks (most especially Christianity) from which he springs . . . . . . This discussion has me thinking that different worldviews promote different kinds of conceptualization skills -- with some emphasizing a kinda extreme 'centrifuging' into hard categories of 'good' versus 'evil', & others embracing a more integrative approach . . . ..

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

hinduism
buddhisme
paganism ( wicca..some)
christianity
islam
judaism





BitaTruble -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 11:38:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

although fear as motivator seems to be used often in the world..and seems to do it job.


I would appreciate it if you didn't take my words out of context. I said fear as a motivator to do the right thing.

Your concept presupposes that people won't just do the right thing without a motivational fear factor. How did you come to this concept?

quote:

to those suppressed people "satan" propably seems far away from being bullshit


Who are 'those suppressed people'? Maybe it's a language barrier, but I'm not getting your sentence here at all. Can you try to rephrase it, please?







TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 1:05:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Buddhism does not feature 'deities' . . . . . There are branches of Buddhism (notably Tibetan Buddhism) that do feature magical beings & myths, but basic Buddhism is essentially atheistic .. . .. .

Taoism also is 'deity free' . . . . . . Taoism is interesting with regards to this discussion, as it is concerned with finding balance between the extremes, whatever extremes. The Tao regularly points to how humans carry both edges of any dichotomy within themselves, it's kind of a major theme of the Tao . . . . .

In my experience, Satan is kinda irrelevant outside of the particular belief frameworks (most especially Christianity) from which he springs . . . . . . This discussion has me thinking that different worldviews promote different kinds of conceptualization skills -- with some emphasizing a kinda extreme 'centrifuging' into hard categories of 'good' versus 'evil', & others embracing a more integrative approach . . . ..




What I meant that Satan is just an example of a "not so good"beeing. Other relation let this person come in other forms.
For example Budism has Mara and Devadatta, the Vikings some one as Loki. These persons or beeings can be pretty innocent to pure evil.
They are not called satan, but the theme kinda comes back. Good vs Evil, always as soem kind of lecturing.



Musicmystery -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 1:10:57 PM)

Etymology

The name 'Devil' derives from the Greek word diabolos, which means 'slanderer' or 'accuser'.

The word 'Satan' may derive from a Northwest Semitic root śṭn, meaning "to be hostile", "to accuse." An alternative explanation is provided by the Hebrew in Job 1:7. When God asks him whence he has come, Satan answers: "From wandering (mi'ŝuṭ) the earth and walking on it" (מִשּׁוּט בָּאָרֶץ, וּמֵהִתְהַלֵּךְ בָּה). The root ŝuṭ signifies wandering on foot or sailing. 'Satan' would thus be "the Wanderer."

Judaism

In Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan (השָׂטָן) means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

In the book of Job (Iyov), ha-satan is the title, not the proper name, of an angel submitted to God; he is the divine court's chief prosecutor. In Judaism ha-satan does not make evil, rather points out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind. In essence ha-satan has no power unless humans do evil things. After God points out Job's piety, ha-satan asks for permission to test the faith of Job. The righteous man is afflicted with loss of family, property, and later, health, but he still stays faithful to God. At the conclusion of this book God appears as a whirlwind, explaining to all that divine justice is inscrutable. In the epilogue Job's possessions are restored and he has a second family to "replace" the one that died.

Christianity

In mainstream Christianity Satan is sometimes called Lucifer, although most scholars recognize the reference in Isaiah 14:12 to Lucifer, or the Morning Star, to be a reference to the Babylonian king (see, for example, the entries in Nave's Topical Bible, the Holman Bible Dictionary and the Adam Clarke Commentary). Modern Christians consider the Devil to be an angel who, along with one-third of the angelic host (the demons) rebelled against God and has consequently been condemned to the Lake of Fire. He is described as hating all humanity, or more accurately creation, opposing God, spreading lies and wreaking havoc on the souls of mankind. Other Christians consider the devil in the Bible to refer figuratively to human sin and temptation and to any human system in opposition to God.

Islam

In Islam the Devil is referred to as Iblis (Arabic: Shaitan, a word referring to evil devil-like beings). According to the Qur'an, God created Iblis out of "smokeless fire" (along with all of the other jinn) and created man out of clay. The primary characteristic of the Devil, besides hubris, is that he has no power other than the power to cast evil suggestions into the heart of men and women.

According to Muslim theology, Iblis was expelled from the grace of God when he disobeyed God by choosing not to pay homage to Adam, the father of all mankind. He claimed to be superior to Adam, on the grounds that man was created of earth unlike himself. As for the angels, they prostrated before Adam to show their homage and obedience to God. However, Iblis, adamant in his view that man is inferior, and unlike angels was given the ability to choose, made a choice of not obeying God. This caused him to be expelled by God, a fact that Iblis blamed on humanity. Initially, the Devil was successful in deceiving Adam, but once his intentions became clear, Adam and Eve repented to God and were freed from their misdeeds and forgiven. God gave them a strong warning about Iblis and the fires of Hell and asked them and their children (humankind) to stay away from the deceptions of their senses caused by the Devil.

Neopaganism

Few neopagan traditions recognize Satan or the Devil outright. However, many neopagan groups worship some sort of Horned God, for example as a consort of the Great Goddess in Wicca. These gods usually reflect mythological figures such as Cernunnos or Pan, and any similarity they may have to the Christian Devil seems to date back only to the 19th century, when a Christian reaction to Pan's growing importance in literature and art resulted in his image being translated to that of the Devil.

Satanism

Some religions worship in a polytheistic sense where "God", Satan, and others are all deities with Satan as the preferred patron; or it can be from a more monotheistic viewpoint, where God is regarded as a true god, but is nevertheless defied.

Some variants deny the existence of God and the Devil altogether, but still call themselves Satanists, such as Anton LaVey's Church Of Satan which sees Satan as a representation of the primal and natural state of mankind.

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians.

The Devil in world folklore

In the Western Christian tradition, the Devil has entered popular folklore, particularly in his role as a trickster figure. As such, he is found as a character in a wide number of traditional folktales and legends from Ireland, Newfoundland, Italy and the United Kingdom, where he often attempts to trick or outwit other characters. In some of these tales, the Devil is portrayed as more of a folk villain than as the personification of evil. The Devil also features prominently in a number of hagiographical tales, or tales of the saints such as the popular tale of St. Dunstan, many of which may fall outside the authorized religious canon. The Devil is also a recurring feature in tales explaining the etymology of geographical names, lending his name to natural formations such as The Devil's Chimney.

God as the Devil

Several religious authors throughout history have advanced the notion that the god of the Abrahamic Bible and its sequels is consistent in character with the Devil. They make the case that the Biblical God is a divine force that wreaks suffering, death, and destruction and that tempts or commands humanity into committing mayhem and genocide.

These writings refer to the Biblical God variously as "a demiurgus", "an evil angel", "the devil god", "the Prince of Darkness", "the source of all evil", "a demon", "a cruel, wrathful, warlike tyrant", "Satan", "the devil", and "the first beast of the book of Revelation".

Many of the authors criticize only Jehovah, the God of the Abrahamic scriptures (Tanakh), in contrast with the "true god" of the New Testament. However, other authors apply their condemnation to the entire godhead of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

--Wikipedia

[Or should that be Wickedpedia...?]




subtlebutterfly -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 1:12:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

What I meant that Satan is just an example of a "not so good"beeing. Other relation let this person come in other forms.
For example Budism has Mara and Devadatta, the Vikings some one as Loki. These persons or beeings can be pretty innocent to pure evil.
They are not called satan, but the theme kinda comes back. Good vs Evil, always as soem kind of lecturing.

Loki aint "satan" but Hel is.....who's his daughter but anyway..
*subtle's nerd-wisdom ends here*



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 1:16:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

although fear as motivator seems to be used often in the world..and seems to do it job.


I would appreciate it if you didn't take my words out of context. I said fear as a motivator to do the right thing.

Your concept presupposes that people won't just do the right thing without a motivational fear factor. How did you come to this concept?

quote:

to those suppressed people "satan" propably seems far away from being bullshit


Who are 'those suppressed people'? Maybe it's a language barrier, but I'm not getting your sentence here at all. Can you try to rephrase it, please?




Sorry for taking it out of context...but it was the way I read it the first time.
Now I get it.

What I meant for the second part was. (not that it matters now as I misread)
To some people that live in warzones, the soldiers there can be seen as evil..or satans army or what ever they choose. Evil suddenly becomes alive. The leaders of those people like to call the enemy leaders Satan then. So..suddenly Satan comes alive...and the poor believers go with this story. For them Satan is far from bullshit. Like in the gulfwar where the west was Satan suddenly and people started to talk about crusades.
I guess aslong as this happens..Satan is very much alive..sadly.



TurboJugend -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 1:19:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

What I meant that Satan is just an example of a "not so good"beeing. Other religions let this person come in other forms.
For example Budism has Mara and Devadatta, the Vikings some one as Loki. These persons or beeings can be pretty innocent to pure evil.
They are not called satan, but the theme kinda comes back. Good vs Evil, always as soem kind of lecturing.

Loki aint "satan" but Hel is.....who's his daughter but anyway..
*subtle's nerd-wisdom ends here*



exactly. That is my point in many posts.
Others take over that kind of roles. There are more bad beeings then just satan al serving as an example to show good and bad..
Man you are all focussed on Satan...scares me  lol

Hel doesn't really sound like a sexy girl :P  and a cold one too

http://movies.warnerbros.com/devils/cmp/lucifer-c.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan





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