RE: Define satan?

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Deicide -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 1:32:30 PM)
Satan as a character originates in hebrew lore (although there is speculation to earlier mythic characters as the inspiration for him), and can only be found once in the hebrew bible in Job. In the story satan is called a child of god which is often interpreted as an angel. The interesting thing to note in job is that satan cannot do one thing to job without first being given permission from Yaweah (god). Think of him as a devine prosecutor for holy law. It was only later when christians combined satan with a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12 that he took on other names, namely lucifer, then devils, prince of darkness (rather ironically given the association to light that the word lucifer originally entailed), and eventually satan had either become all the bad characters of the bible, like the serpeant in the garden, or was said to be behind the bad things people did. Perhaps people needed to blame their shortcommings on this non-existent being they'd created to ease their own conscience? At any rate, one cannot call satan 'evil' without calling the abrahamic god evil, as this god both created satan and according to te book of job will not allow him to do anything without his permission. If satan is called evil, then so must be the abrahamic god.

Musicmystery -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 1:50:34 PM)
Your conclusion doesn't follow (logically), as the creator doesn't equal the creations (except in man's hubris): Encyclopedia of Judaism: Evil The existence of evil, death, suffering, and injustice in the world presents major questions to monotheistic religious thought, which views God as good and responsible for everything which occurs in His world. Questions regarding the source of evil, its purpose, and its status vis-à-vis God's goodness have exercised Jewish thinkers since biblical times. Biblical perception underscores unequivocally the responsibility of God for both good and evil. Lamentations 3:38 asks: "Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?" As opposed to the dualistic Persian perception, which held that good and evil come from different sources, the Bible affirms that evil is part of the framework of God's creation, and God avows (Isa. 45:7), "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil." Evil, as everything else made by the Creator, has a purpose which is part of God's plan---"The Lord has made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4). At the same time, the Bible recognizes the difficulty for man in understanding the existence of evil, and gives expression to man's protest against the suffering, pain, and injustice in the world.

Deicide -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 2:04:45 PM)
It follows for two reasons. One, as I already said, in the original story of job satan can do nothing to humans without god's permission. If satans actions are deemded evil then so must be the one who granted him permission to do such actions. Secondly, if one assumes that god is omnicient and omnipotent then yes, you can blame his creations actions on him, as he knew what they would do before they existed, and he created them anyway. Also you are not presenting an arguement against my previous claim with your quotes, as they demonstraght a propensity for evil in Yaweah which is in fact the point. Quite the opposite, you're providing evidence of my point for me. Also rabbinic judaism, unlike christianity, does not blame outside sources for 'evil'; they accept that it is a product of their own actions without needing a scapegoat. Maybe you could actually learn about the topic rather than copying and pasting internet sources.

Musicmystery -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 2:12:18 PM)
Sigh. Why are insults always the argument of choice by those who bristle at simple logic? I created both ice cream and hot chili. Therefore I am both ice cream and hot chili. "God created both good and evil. Therefore God is evil." doesn't logically follow. If insults it must be--why don't you attempt learning from sources instead of pretending you ARE the source? The sources provided indicate if anything that the propensity for evil comes from the will of man to make it so and blame "Satan." No, no, don't bother. I've had enough. I'm not smart enough to talk with you anyway. I'll add you to my "block" list and we won't have this problem in the future.

chiaThePet -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 3:27:34 PM)
Matthew 13:13-15 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' http://bible.org/article/satanology chia* (the pet)

Deicide -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 5:36:21 PM)
Chia, to which passage in Issiah do you refer? By the quote I pressume you mean Issaiah 6:8-10 but I'm not entirely sure what relevance this would be to the main topic of the thread. If this is the passage your referring to I must say this 'prophecy' is dated to that generation, as Issiah is charged with bringing a message to the people of his time, which he did. Note the present tense of 'here am I, send me'. Biblically speaking, it came to fruition long before the events claimed to have occured in the NT took place. Look at the entire passage. Isaiah 6:8-10 ~ Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. In fact I know of no hebrew prophecy that was fulfilled in the NT.

cpK69 -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 6:46:05 PM)
Satan, the deceiver, an artist, and Master Magician, King of the dead; has them convinced they are living. Inside and out, he wonders the earth. An infection of man, contracted at birth. Kim

chiaThePet -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 8:06:15 PM)
Deicide (Decide?), I chose the passage from Matthew as it spoke of my own feelings as I grazed along this thread. It sufficed as a lead in to my link offered of the original question posed by the OP. I found the link, and the words of the chosen Prophet Isaiah, as he revealed them, bestowed to him of God, in turn shared of the Apostle Matthew by Jesus, to reflect my own understanding of such. It is my understanding that the Prophet Isaiah is credited with numerous prophecies concerning Jesus Christ of the New Testament. It was not my intent to overshadow the link and it's numerous references in the bible to the entity we have come to know as Satan. If I am to accept as genuine the God of the Bible, then would it not follow that I would accept the teachings and words he offers to me there? I do not wish to pick and choose that which suits me and uplifts me, simply to discard that which may chastise my conscience. chia* (the pet)

knees2you -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 10:16:57 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda How many Sarah Palin threads do we really need at one time, anyway? [sm=rofl.gif] I knew there was a reason I like you Panda! This goes in the Humor section. Sorry but it does. *Always, Ant[sm=cactus.gif]*

knees2you -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 10:22:15 PM)
quote: Satan as a character originates in hebrew lore (although there is speculation to earlier mythic characters as the inspiration for him), and can only be found once in the hebrew bible in Job. In the story satan is called a child of god which is often interpreted as an angel. The interesting thing to note in job is that satan cannot do one thing to job without first being given permission from Yaweah (god). Think of him as a devine prosecutor for holy law. It was only later when christians combined satan with a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12 that he took on other names, namely lucifer, then devils, prince of darkness (rather ironically given the association to light that the word lucifer originally entailed), and eventually satan had either become all the bad characters of the bible, like the serpeant in the garden, or was said to be behind the bad things people did. Perhaps people needed to blame their shortcommings on this non-existent being they'd created to ease their own conscience? At any rate, one cannot call satan 'evil' without calling the abrahamic god evil, as this god both created satan and according to te book of job will not allow him to do anything without his permission. If satan is called evil, then so must be the abrahamic god. satan is referred to in the Bible as the serpent. Everywhere the serpent is mentioned in the Hebrew bible, this refers to satan. This is coming a Baptist scholar who has studied every major religion out there, over the past 4o years. I did not even know this. Always, Ant~[sm=cactus.gif]

Vendaval -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 11:11:25 PM)
Fast Reply - Dame Calla Firestorm and Music Mystery have posted great information so far and I will add to it here. The serpent is powerful symbol of the Great Mother, rebirth, and eternal life polytheistic religions. Remember the legend of the Oracle of Delphi and Apollo? The concept of a daimon goes back to Babylonian, Assyrian, Sumerian and Persian religions. Go to the link at the bottom of this post for an over-view. "In the OXFORD ENCYCLOPAEDIA under “The Jewish idea of Satan" it states “It was probably under the influence of these Persian ideas that the Jewish conception of Satan took shape. At first, however, the “Satan" in the Old Testament was regarded as one of the servants of God, who, as a divine agent was permitted to bring evil upon Job to test this Righteous man. Next, he is represented as the accuser of Israel as a Nation and is made responsible for leading David astray. From being “the Adversary" and “tempter" he very soon became thought of as an evil spirit; and then, after the exiles returned from their captivity in Babylon and Persian ideas had begun to spread in Palestine, he was transformed into the Devil on the model of Druj." " http://www.reflectingonjudaism.com/conflicting1

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Define satan? (8/15/2009 11:29:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: knees2you Just curious here? We have been trying to define God, and we if are going to define Him, then we should define satan also.[sm=flameout.gif] Well Satan, or rather ha-satan just means to be hostile or enemy. So Satan would be the enemy of God. quote: If we have Good, then we know we have evil. We know according to Gods laws that satan is here also. Not sure which of God's laws you are refering to, from which religion, if Christianity which translation. quote: Do we just believe that evil is because someone just feels that way? It is difficult to have this discussion without some common understanding of which religion you are speaking of. In Judeo-Christian religion satan is first introduced as a tempter of man, specifically Job. In The Torah there are a couple of instances of this temptation, the main one being when the idol was built while Moses was away on the mountain. Evil would then be defined as anything that is against or opposed to the laws set forth by God. quote: Their mind is not right? Mind? Hmmm. I do not believe there is much reference to this. Usually it is an active choice that the tempter puts forth, and you either stay within gods laws or you do not. quote: What makes evil tick?? Always, Ant~[sm=seesaw.gif] There are a few universal evils that span most of the world's religions. Murder is usually high on the list, as is theft, deceit, betrayal, cruelty, and a few others. What makes evil tick is something that is in our nature, and is a dichotomy to what is good in us. God in the Abrahamic religions is not good, or evil, yet it is both. This is brought forth in Isaiah 45: 7 - I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. So calling God evil would be the same as calling a Tornado that kills people evil, but a rainstorm that ends a drought good. They are neither, they just are. There have been many names used for Satan, and none of them can truly be said to be the actual name. Most of the names are of other deities that were seen to be in opposition to the will of the God of Abraham. On the pagan side, much of the propoganda against many of the Earth based religions depict Satan as having horns, goats feet, etc. because it was a campaign to turn people against many of the Pagan religions of the time. Those pagan religions allowed females to have some power within the faiths and this was seen as a threat to Christianity. Those religions were also not unified, and anything that took followers away from Christianity was seen as a bad thing. Now my personal opinion on what evil is, it is the aboration of some very human and natural things in us. Two of the names that spring to mine would by Paul and Mohammed. This is viewed along the Abrahamic religions. Don't have much more time, but I truly recommend that any that are interested do the research from many different angles. Also, there is one thing that is considered evil within the Wiccan religion, and that is to harm another. "An it harm none, then do thy will.". Pretty simple rule but again it is humans that have made it extremely subjective. Now to what I see as truly evil in a universal sense, is disharmony with ourselves. Then again I relate heavily to Taoism, and see neither barbaric or civilized behavior as good or evil. I instead have my own personal code, ethics and morals, and from those I determine good and evil. Well this discussion and a few others shows that by several years of searching and study was not completely wasted or just used for myself.

Esinn -> RE: Define satan? (8/16/2009 12:01:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: knees2you Just curious here? We have been trying to define God, and we if are going to define Him, then we should define satan also.[sm=flameout.gif] If we have Good, then we know we have evil. We know according to Gods laws that satan is here also. Do we just believe that evil is because someone just feels that way? Their mind is not right? What makes evil tick?? Always, Ant~[sm=seesaw.gif] Easy: http://barackobamaantichrist.blogspot.com/ (listen to the first few seconds of the first video only. Then toss this link in the trash where it belongs) Obama states with pride: "I was not born in a manger." Then watch this video in its entirety. http://christwire.org/2009/08/proof-that-barack-hussein-obama-is-the-antichrist/ Obama is obviously Satan. So, let us find words that we can agree upon which describe Obama. I learned it on the internet - it must be true!

scarlethiney -> RE: Define satan? (8/16/2009 5:21:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda How many Sarah Palin threads do we really need at one time, anyway? Gosh darn, are you trying to say you don't love Sarah Palin?

Vendaval -> RE: Define satan? (8/16/2009 11:20:02 AM)
Fast Reply - 3 critical thinking questions here that are in the process of being developed further, thanks Orion. #1 What is evil #2 How is it personified? #3 What religions personify it?

Deicide -> RE: Define satan? (8/16/2009 12:34:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: knees2you satan is referred to in the Bible as the serpent. Everywhere the serpent is mentioned in the Hebrew bible, this refers to satan. This is coming a Baptist scholar who has studied every major religion out there, over the past 4o years. I did not even know this. Always, Ant~[sm=cactus.gif] Take a trip down to your local temple and have a nice chat with the leading rabbi there. The serpent is only associated with satan in christian dogma, some bibles have even been modified to fit this belief, but hebrew dogma does not consider satan the serpeant, and satan's only appearence is in job.

Lorr47 -> RE: Define satan? (8/16/2009 1:21:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: knees2you Just curious here? We have been trying to define God, and we if are going to define Him, then we should define satan also.[sm=flameout.gif] If we have Good, then we know we have evil. We know according to Gods laws that satan is here also. Do we just believe that evil is because someone just feels that way? Their mind is not right? What makes evil tick?? Always, Ant~[sm=seesaw.gif] Ignorance makes evil tick.

knees2you -> RE: Define satan? (8/16/2009 8:45:10 PM)
quote: Easy: http://barackobamaantichrist.blogspot.com/ (listen to the first few seconds of the first video only. Then toss this link in the trash where it belongs) Obama states with pride: "I was not born in a manger." Then watch this video in its entirety. http://christwire.org/2009/08/proof-that-barack-hussein-obama-is-the-antichrist/ Obama is obviously Satan. So, let us find words that we can agree upon which describe Obama. I learned it on the internet - it must be true! This is true! And I know that Hillary is satans wife also.[8\|] Always, Ant~[:D]

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Define satan? (8/16/2009 8:59:09 PM)
Interesting as ha-satan appears in at least 15 different places in the Torah. The New Englishmans Concordance can assist with this. It was recommended to me by Rabbi Blumenthal here in Atlanta. As it was explained to me, that ha-satan or Satan is an untranslated word in some areas of the English Old testament, and it means adversary. So if you look at each enlgish area that uses the word adversaty, then it is likely the original hebrew word was ha-satan. From my studies, and seems to be supported by non-demonational scholars, is that Satan was never a singular entity, but in fact there have been several advesaries of God throughout the Torah. quote: ORIGINAL: Deicide quote: ORIGINAL: knees2you satan is referred to in the Bible as the serpent. Everywhere the serpent is mentioned in the Hebrew bible, this refers to satan. This is coming a Baptist scholar who has studied every major religion out there, over the past 4o years. I did not even know this. Always, Ant~[sm=cactus.gif] Take a trip down to your local temple and have a nice chat with the leading rabbi there. The serpent is only associated with satan in christian dogma, some bibles have even been modified to fit this belief, but hebrew dogma does not consider satan the serpeant, and satan's only appearence is in job.

Deicide -> RE: Define satan? (8/18/2009 2:05:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Interesting as ha-satan appears in at least 15 different places in the Torah. The New Englishmans Concordance can assist with this. It was recommended to me by Rabbi Blumenthal here in Atlanta. As it was explained to me, that ha-satan or Satan is an untranslated word in some areas of the English Old testament, and it means adversary. So if you look at each enlgish area that uses the word adversaty, then it is likely the original hebrew word was ha-satan. From my studies, and seems to be supported by non-demonational scholars, is that Satan was never a singular entity, but in fact there have been several advesaries of God throughout the Torah. Then by all means, provide the passages they're found in. I find it unlikely a rabbi would be explaining on the christian english OT, perhaps you mean the hebrew bible or Tanakh. Satan, as a character, appears only in job.

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