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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 6:03:09 AM   
lally2


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Status: offline 		please dont for a minute think that i dont agree with what you feel and say, i do understand and up to a point i agree completely, hence my knee jerk reaction.

i dont know about the oil blah blah, if thats part of this then well, no surprises there i dont suppose.  people use people the whole time and who better than politicians to use a situation to the best of their ability. frankly i dont give a shit what the politicians are up to...,

but on a whole different level, the level of one westerner walking alongside one muslim - its time to break down the 'you did this and you did that so im going to hurt you' carousel.

you know there are people living today who hate the germans and im sure there are germans who hate the british and the yanks.  time out and move on. 

if this planet is to be spared the full potential of human stupidity then we need to stop behaving like cavemen and find a solution.

so if letting him out makes just one dissafected muslim think twice before strapping on enough dynamite to blow himself and a bus full of people up, then thats a step in the right direction.

and maybe thats just westernised flooey, rose spectacled, sunset skipping hippie voodoo, i dont know - but its a more positive message than slamming the keys back in the door and keeping him from going home for his last few weeks of life.

prison life may not be that bad. but i know if i was dying id want to smell and hear and feel and touch my home and the people i love.


< Message edited by lally2 -- 8/22/2009 6:09:09 AM >

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 6:27:09 AM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ANRsub

. Bita Trouble is on the right track, emotionally/philosophically but falls way short. Forget the family, you take out the entire country. You state WHY you're doing it, and you explain that other such like-minded nation-states face similar terrible retribution if they in any way interfere or take action against us in any way. Fear and moral terror must be your close allies, if not, they are your surest enemies.


oh good lord!! - right well im off down to the bottom of the garden to dig myself a big fucking hole and line it with lead, because if this is how the vast majority of america feels, world war 3 is just bound to fucking happen and we are all going to fucking fry.

thanks a bunch. 

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 8:39:15 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

NG, nice post.


Which one? The one where he says -

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Were the evidence 'questionable' then there should have been a re-trial. Until then he is guilty as per the ruling in the courts.



The one where he says -


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Bollocks. The bloke was found guilty in a court of law.



Or the one where he says -


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Incidentally: distinguished lawyers have cast serious doubt on the reliability of the evidence. They suggest that the evidence and intelligence gathered means that the wrong man was deliberately convicted.


Because I'm having a very difficult time figuring out exactly what he's arguing, myself.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 8:42:46 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So. The argument is, he didn't murder 270 people - he was just an accomplice in the murder of 270 people? I fail to see a significant distinction.


We could get into a debate about the actual trial, the evidence was suspect as I recall. The point being made is twofold, he was convicted under Scottish law, which allows the release of prisoners with less than two months to live.

( Edit, that should read three months )

The other point is that his accomplices, IE Libya itself, is now doing business with the US and UK, indeed oil companies actively lobbied for sanctions to be lifted. Im a little dismayed that anyone pointing out how our legal system works, is accused of not having sympathy for the victims.


I would too, if I were you. But since you're replying to me, I want to make clear that I'm not doing that. The only people I'm criticizing are the ones who are supporting the decision, not the ones explaining it.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 10:57:20 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

NG  

The original conviction, I suppose it should be asked where exactly did the intelligence. come from that named this man




If memory serves they found a piece of a radio that the bomb was smuggled aboard in with a serial number on it and traced it back to the store where it was bought and found out who bought it.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 12:02:17 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Surely you can grasp that it is quite possible that the evidence doesn't stack up but the answer is a re-trial rather than to just release him. There's nothing contradictory in there.

As said though your posturing is comical for the reasons I stated in my last post.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 12:07:41 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Surely you can grasp that it is quite possible that the evidence doesn't stack up but the answer is a re-trial rather than to just release him. There's nothing contradictory in there.

As said though your posturing is comical for the reasons I stated in my last post.


I'll certainly grant you that your authority on the subject of posturing is noteworthy, but I have yet to see a concise and persuasive argument in the post which you referenced. Food for thought, certainly. Intriguing speculation, absolutely. A convincing argument - not so much, I'm afraid.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 12:20:03 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Food for thought, certainly. Intriguing speculation, absolutely. A convincing argument - not so much, I'm afraid.



Only you can do the convincing for yourself. You should look into the details - see what you find.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 12:56:12 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Food for thought, certainly. Intriguing speculation, absolutely. A convincing argument - not so much, I'm afraid.



Only you can do the convincing for yourself. You should look into the details - see what you find.


Actually, I'm doing exactly that. I don't recall if it was one of your posts yesterday or somebody else's, but someone said something that got me thinking along those lines and I later heard a fair amount of discussion regarding that on a BBC broadcast. I've been doing a bit of googling, and will do more over the next few days (time's chaotic because I'm traveling), and i won't be surprised to find you're mostly right on the money.

But as it stands, from what I've seen, it still sounds to me as though the man was at least an accomplice in the conspiracy. And as long as that's the case, I have no sympathy for him, regardless of whatever high-level intrnational intrigue he may have been swept up in.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 3:01:54 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ANRsub

Forget the family, you take out the entire country. You state WHY you're doing it, and you explain that other such like-minded nation-states face similar terrible retribution if they in any way interfere or take action against us in any way. Fear and moral terror must be your close allies, if not, they are your surest enemies.



Well if I were you I'd take a bow here. What an almighty clanger, a real doozy. This ranks as perhaps the most stupid thing I have ever read at anytime on the Internet. How did you manage to string so many words together without any evidence of thought?

Terrorism is using bombs which kill people to create fear to further a political aim.

It is unacceptable, the people who plant the bombs are unacceptable, as are those who help them, as are those who support them.

There is no defence for such actions, no explanation, not even that one is a sovereign state.

Therefore be sure that the blood on my hands (or your's for that matter) isn't any cleaner than that on the hands of the bastards who murdered those 270 people.

In my book two wrongs never make a right, and it doesn't matter whether it's one of those 270 people, a family in Iraq, Afghanistan, one of our servicemen, it is still a loss of life and a terrible tragedy.

I am on principle against the death penalty. However I don't have an issue that Timothy MacVeigh was arrested, convicted, sentenced and executed for the Oklahoma bombings. No issue whatsoever.

However it would appear that as the US and Britain are now trading with and have diplomatic relations with Libya this would make Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi a political prisoner.

I for one accept the release, in fact I support it though I doubt it's purely for compassionate reasons. I would rather suggest that it's more for diplomatic reasons, that a deal has been struck, and as part of that deal perhaps some of our hostages are also being released, flown home, reunited with their families, that perhaps even more fundamentalists have renounced terrorism and we have a few less terrorists to deal with.

Just in the same way as I supported the talks at Stormont and the Good Friday Agreement, the IRA ceasefire and surrendering arms (note to Americans: the IRA was a terrorist organization based in Northern Ireland operating at that time when you guys weren't that much interested in terrorism) to achieve peace in Northern Ireland.

Now you might have the military strength and the weapons and technology, but as far as I'm aware the US has never succeeded in any conflict by bombing and nuking its way out of it. Observe that 'special relationship' between Britain and the US, and see how when given the opportunity for peace Obama is pussy-footing around. Rather than spew hatred and seek vengeance, which is no better than what all those angry fundamentalists are doing on the streets of Teheran, Baghdad and Karachi are doing, accept the decision for what it is and accept that when it comes to diplomacy and negotiating peace settlements that leaving it to the British appears to be the best solution.

Furthermore instead of spewing hatred and seeking vengeance maybe take a moment to reflect how - when Pan Am Flight 103 back in the 1980's blew up in Lockerbie on a direct flight path to New York - US intelligence appeared to not take this into account when two airplanes flew across several states directly into the World Trade Center.

The case against Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi is at best dubious, as indeed it is against many political prisoners. Were those of you who are so against this release also against the release of other political prisoners such as Nelson Mandela and Lech Walesa, who although weren't terrorists, didn't have anything against breaking the law and condoning violence to achieve their political aims?

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 3:11:44 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		No popeye you are not ''feeling the love'' because I was showing you none for your deeply foolish comment. If you cannot see that advocating killing this man's family, his wife and children as a just retakiation for his revolting crime then there is indeed no difference between you. I have never asked you to ''understand'' this man simply demonstarte that you are better then the likes of him something you are apparently incapable of doing. Comparing this man to a rabid dog makes no sense. a dog has no choice in what happens to it and yes I would feel sorry for a dog I had to kill. This man had free will and used it to commit terrible crimes. However that is not an excuse to in turn to behave like an animal.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 3:14:22 PM   
rightwinghippie


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Status: offline 		Why are you pretending that Walesa advocated violence? to compare this man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech_Walesa to scum who helped blow up an airplane full of civilians is ridiculous.

Mandela did not advocate killing women and kids in sneak attacks. He did advocate forcefull opposition to tyranny, and after the regiem was ended he advocated reconciliation. It's not even close to being comparable.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 4:22:03 PM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		Somewhere in this, a number of the families of those 270 people, have to come to terms with the fact that this man received compassion that they never got.  Ask how many of them would have gladly traded places.  Ask how many would have given all of the damn oil in Africa to have three precious months with the person that they lost rather than them being blown out of the sky.  Letting this man go was nothing but an insult to their injury.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 5:45:10 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Why are you pretending that Walesa advocated violence? to compare this man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech_Walesa to scum who helped blow up an airplane full of civilians is ridiculous.

Mandela did not advocate killing women and kids in sneak attacks. He did advocate forcefull opposition to tyranny, and after the regiem was ended he advocated reconciliation. It's not even close to being comparable.


Of course not. I did state that neither were terrorists. I also stated that terrorists are unacceptable, terrorism is unacceptable. I never said that their activites were comparable to terrorists.

But a life taken unlawfully is still a life taken unlawfully irrespective of whether it's a terrorist bomb, a murder, as a result of a criminally negligent accident or a drunk driver - the effects are still the same, a life was taken unlawfully, a family is bereaved and nothing can make that dead person live again.

It doesn't matter who that person is - the death remains unacceptable.

Please don't also assume that just because I support the decision that it sits well with me. It doesn't. Not one bit. It doesn't sit well with the families bereaved in that plane crash, it doesn't sit well with the residents of Lockerbie, or those on the ground who lost their relatives too, and I'm inclined to believe that the decision also didn't sit too well with the people responsible for it.

I don't give a toss about the oil, the business and trade, the politics, or the billions of dollars spent on the prevention of terrorism.

But if it goes towards preventing another 9/11, 7/7, Lockerbie, if it means hostages, servicemen, journalists and others not being in danger and their loved ones not having to worry about them being in danger, if it means fundamentalists renouncing terrorism and if it goes towards peace - in short to preventing further loss of life then it's worth it and this is the only reason I support it.

I do so fully supporting the war on terrorism and supporting fully bring the terrorists and their supporters to justice. I do not condone any violence or force when it comes to furthering political objectives.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/22/2009 6:40:10 PM   
EyemKnotHear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Just in the same way as I supported the talks at Stormont and the Good Friday Agreement, the IRA ceasefire and surrendering arms (note to Americans: the IRA was a terrorist organization based in Northern Ireland operating at that time when you guys weren't that much interested in terrorism) to achieve peace in Northern Ireland.


Why you made this "note" to Americans seems rather insulting, as well as the "you guys" remark.
I don't believe in blanket statements.

Not all Americans believe the same things, think the same way, etc.

Until I read this, and reread it a couple of times to be sure I hadn't misread it, I enjoyed reading many of your posts even if I didn't agree with them, but could see your point of view.
'Eyem' disappointed in what seems to be a low blow on your part. I held you to a higher standard and had great respect for you and your words. Sadly, no more. My bubble has been burst. :(

P.S. We Americans are (& were) aware of the IRA, just so you know.

< Message edited by EyemKnotHear -- 8/22/2009 6:41:56 PM >

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/23/2009 5:19:36 AM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EyemKnotHear

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Just in the same way as I supported the talks at Stormont and the Good Friday Agreement, the IRA ceasefire and surrendering arms (note to Americans: the IRA was a terrorist organization based in Northern Ireland operating at that time when you guys weren't that much interested in terrorism) to achieve peace in Northern Ireland.


Why you made this "note" to Americans seems rather insulting, as well as the "you guys" remark.
I don't believe in blanket statements.

Not all Americans believe the same things, think the same way, etc.

Until I read this, and reread it a couple of times to be sure I hadn't misread it, I enjoyed reading many of your posts even if I didn't agree with them, but could see your point of view.
'Eyem' disappointed in what seems to be a low blow on your part. I held you to a higher standard and had great respect for you and your words. Sadly, no more. My bubble has been burst. :(

P.S. We Americans are (& were) aware of the IRA, just so you know.


Okay, when I wrote that I overstepped the mark and I apologize to all those offended by this remark, I don't come here to offend people and being human I am also capable of mistakes.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/23/2009 5:41:38 AM   
KatyLied


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Status: offline 		This is not about a compassionate release.  It's about the royal family and their relationship with terrorists and of course, it's about business/money too.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/23/2009 6:25:49 AM   
lally2


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Status: offline 		it was an american comedien a few weeks back that pretty much summed things up on a programme we have over here called 'Live at the Apollo'.

he said, but made a long and very funny joke about it - that the brits get blown to bits on a bus and the next day are standing at the same bus stop wondering why the fucking thing is late.

terrorism has been a way of life here in the UK, especially in London for absolutely years. we're kinda used to it and our approach and attitudes are possibly slightly more seasoned than the rest of the west.

what happened to the two towers shocked and rocked the world, not least, i think, because noone had had the audacity up until then to terrorise america before.

maybe it is a cultural thing.  much of america still holds with 'an eye for an eye' and condones the death penalty.  and in some cases i would totally agree with you.  there are some people who are just costing this country the earth when they really ought to be put down.  but, terrorism is in a way the modern equivalent of the two world wars before.  its a different sort of war fare, but it is still warfare.

back then everyone got up and fought back because it was the only thing to do to stop the bosh, germans and japanese from taking over the world and wiping out whole sections of society.  but we could see the enemy, they were the ones in tanks and airoplanes and boats and marching armies of men.  it was down to territory and megoilamania.

this new wave of terrorism against the west isnt about invasion.  its about values and cultures, fear and ignorance.

in my book, by showing the Taliban and Al Quaeda how we do things, how our values support humanitariasm, compassion, free speech and open dialogue we are fighting back with our brains and our guile our values and our sense of right and wrong.

we put that man in jail and you can be sure that man would have had a shocking time in that scottish jail.  the scots are known for many things, but tolerance of attack on their home turf isnt one of them.  he would have been kept under protection the whole time from the threat of being beaten up and murdered.  so now he has prostate cancer and if the docs are saying he is close to death then you can be sure he is.

so now he is a pawn in this struggle against terrorism - ironically his illness is being used to undermine his position - it is being used to proffer good will and negotiation.  good on us i say.   finally a strong position that kicks ass in a way that cuts straight to the issues between us as cultures.

we have been kicking ass over there, in iraq and now in afghanistan.  we are standing by for the elections to take place properly and democratically.  we have given iraq a chance to sort itself out and now we are doing the same for afghanistan.  our stance, like it or not has actually always been peaceable.  but different methods and different means - it all points out the same message.  that we want to negotiate we want peace, we do not want this mess to continue and we will be the grownups here and we will continue to be the grown ups here and im damned proud of that.


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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/23/2009 6:39:46 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Excellent post Lally2.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/23/2009 6:49:52 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

it was an american comedien a few weeks back that pretty much summed things up on a programme we have over here called 'Live at the Apollo'.

he said, but made a long and very funny joke about it - that the brits get blown to bits on a bus and the next day are standing at the same bus stop wondering why the fucking thing is late.



One of the times I've been proudest to be a Londoner was the day after the bombings here. A TV news crew were out doing vox pop interviews with the public, and the reactions were as you would expect; a mixture of horror at what had happened and sympathy for those affected. Then they stopped an old geezer, who was clearly as rough as arseholes, and through a strong London accent and a roll-up ciggie, told how, just the day before, he'd been slightly injured by flying glass from the bomb on the bus as he was walking past, to catch the next one. Then the reporter said "and are you not worried about being out and about today then?".

The old bloke just looked the reporter straight in the eye and said (and they had to bleep him): "nah ... f**k the lot of em. I'll go anywhere I f**king well want to, and bollocks to anyone wot says different".



PS: Smashing post, BTW.

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