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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 4:38:01 AM   
Starbuck09


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People are senetenced to life without parole very rarely in britian and has already been noted usually for political reasons house sub. It is impossible to sentence someone with compassioknate leave in mind as you cannot gauge how long they will live for. If you give them a fifty year sentence and they live for seventy years then they will have enjyed two decades of freedom. So individual cases are judged on an adhoc basis when the situation arises.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 4:39:25 AM   
Starbuck09


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No one is denying the loss of the victim's families house sub. However just because this man is an animal it does not mean we have to treat him like one. That is why we are better.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 5:16:43 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

Look at the manson killer just released, she did everything the parole board asked her to do.  Yet when ever she went in front of the parole board, the main reason she was turned down for parole for so long was because of the crime.  Yet, that is not fair, the crime cannot be changed, after a court hearing the courts agreed they could not hold the crime against her in denying parole.  So she was paroled after doing everything asked of her.



Last I read, she was awaiting a hearing in September.  Has she been released?

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 5:18:55 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I'm at a complete loss to imagine any reason compassion would even be considered for someone who murdered 270 innocent human beings. What's the point of putting mass murderers in prison in the first place? Christ, if compassion is more important than justice, just give 'em cab fare home as soon as the verdict is announced, and of course be sure to apologize for inconveniencing them.


But 2 wrongs don't make a right. The purpose of the law is to enact justice, not revenge. As others have pointed out, the mere fact this individual showed no compassion doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same; he's got terminal cancer, and will die shortly anyway.

The second point is that his release is part of the ongoing attempts (successful thus far) to re-integrate Libya into "polite society" - the last thing the world needs is yet another despotic leader of a state which sponsors terrorism. For some years now Europe and the USA have been using a "carrot & stick" approach to demonstrate that, for states that genuinely abandon state-sponsored terrorism, the rewards will outweigh the risks. This is, I think, a Good Thing.

Where I actually do disagree with releasing this specific individual is that, on the balance of probabilities, he almost certainly didn't commit the crime he was convicted of (indeed a senior judge said, a while back, that if the evidence had been heard now, rather than back then, when people were baying for blood, that he almost certainly would have been acquitted). What he did do, however, was have prior knowledge of what was to take place, and acted as co-conspirator in the role of “fixer”, between the Libyan government and the men who did commit that awful act.

Hence I don’t think he should have been released until and only until he had spilled the beans on who actually committed that act of mass murder. It’s possible, of course, that he’s already done this in secret, but I think it’s unlikely.

He now has a few weeks of pain and illness before death, therefore I see no harm in letting him die in his homeland, in return for better relations with a country that is attempting to prove that even “rogue” states can reform.

I do, however, completely understand the anger the families of his victims feel; were I in their shoes, I’d be baying for blood too. That doesn’t make them right though, and the state’s job is to make decisions on people’s behalf when they are too close to the issue to be able to think clearly.

As others have pointed out, the practice in Britain of releasing prisoners who are terminally ill (specifically, those whose terminal illness will cause their imminent demise – longer term conditions such as MS, when in early stages, are not usually considered sufficient grounds) is widespread, though not exactly “common”. Ronnie Biggs got the same treatment, and others like him.


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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 8:39:59 AM   
EyemKnotHear


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but he went home to a heroes welcome

seems like a slap in the face to all who suffered from his act of terrorism that he was found guilty of

something seems real screwy there

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 8:47:17 AM   
DCWoody


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It's always been the official position of the libyan govt that he was innocent, the big welcome he got wasn't cheering terrorism, it was cheering the release of what they believed to be an innocent man.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 9:19:51 AM   
thishereboi


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It's always been the official position of any group that their member is innocent, the big welcome he got wasn't cheering terrorism, it was cheering the release of what they believed to be one of their own.

It just a shame the family of the plane victims didn't get the chance to say goodbye. But were not really worried about them right now, are we?

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 9:22:43 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EyemKnotHear

but he went home to a heroes welcome

seems like a slap in the face to all who suffered from his act of terrorism that he was found guilty of



So what? He'll be dead very soon, and not painlessly either. If his going home for a short time helps cement relations between a formerly rogue state and Europe/The Word, I think it’s a price worth paying. What you’re talking about comes down to pride-based resentment, not a calm, rational consideration of what is “lost” and what is gained.

“something seems real screwy there” … Does it? It seems pretty logical to me. The regime makes a media meal of things, but they already know the score – things are sometimes done for the benefit of the populace, rather than for intelligent reasons. The US government does the same thing, as does the UK government, as do all governments, to one degree or another. Spin is everything these days – have to keep the proles contented, sadly.

(in reply to EyemKnotHear)
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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 1:18:22 PM   
NorthernGent


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General reply:

The problem with this whole thing is why exactly is this being put in the public domain?

Britain is a nation that pretty much invented the rule of law in the modern age and we all live by it - so why exactly is this man being released when he has been found guilty in a court of law? We're fairly conservative when it comes to prison - we have more people jailed than any European country. It doesn't make a great deal of sense at first light.

But terrorism is associated with war in this day and age - and war sells newspapers - it creates a supply and a demand.

Then there's the government. We haven't had a terrorist attack for a while and the government has certain ideas that require the fear of such an attack - second best option is to bring one back from the dead.

So we have a situation where the right say: "burn him" and the left say: "give him his last supper" but what matters is that terrorism is back in the public domain - the left and the right will squabble about the rights and wrongs but then that's the objective.

And the crux of the matter in this whole episode is an unholy alliance between hack writers/military careerists (demanding army reform)/narrow economic interests who have oil on their mind.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 8/21/2009 1:20:12 PM >


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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 1:24:19 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

General reply:

The problem with this whole thing is why exactly is this being put in the public domain?

Britain is a nation that pretty much invented the rule of law in the modern age and we all live by it - so why exactly is this man being released when he has been found guilty in a court of law? We're fairly conservative when it comes to prison - we have more people jailed than any European country. It doesn't make a great deal of sense at first light.

But terrorism is associated with war in this day and age - and war sells newspapers - it creates a supply and a demand.

Then there's the government. We haven't had a terrorist attack for a while and the government has certain ideas that require the fear of such an attack - second best option is to bring one back from the dead.

So we have a situation where the right say: "burn him" and the left say: "give him his last supper" but what matters is that terrorism is back in the public domain - the left and the right will squabble about the rights and wrongs but then that's the objective.

And the crux of the matter is this whole episode is the result of an unholy alliance between hack writers/military careerists (demanding army reform)/narrow economic interests who have oil on their mind.


I don't agree with all of that, but it raises some very fair points. Respect.

The erosion of personal rights in the UK over the course of the last 2 governments is a national disgrace, and doubly so for a Labour government.

I felt a similar sense of outrage at the total hypocrisy as I did when journalists started crucifying politicians for fiddling expenses. It’s like Pol Pot calling Hitler a bastard.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 2:19:09 PM   
4u2spoil


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And if a jury or judge were to throw that evidence out, to release him would be just.Otherwise, someone at some point found enough evidence of his involvement to convict him. Because humans are by nature sometimes wrong, he should be fed, sheltered and given sufficient medical attention to address health problems. However at this point in time he's still been found guilty. To serve out the sentence that came with that conviction in humane conditions is still much more than the people on that plane got.

No one's suggesting the guy be strung up by the balls and sent to a firing squad.

quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular

is everyone in america oblivious to the fact that an important chunk of the evidence against him turns out to be questionable?

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 2:38:27 PM   
4u2spoil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
But 2 wrongs don't make a right. The purpose of the law is to enact justice, not revenge. As others have pointed out, the mere fact this individual showed no compassion doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same; he's got terminal cancer, and will die shortly anyway.


Revenge would be making the guy sleep in an asbestos cell so that he definitely gets cancer. Having someone serve out a sentence handed down by a relatively objective judicial system Is.Not.
A.Wrong. No one gave this guy cancer in jail or forced it on him. So what does him serving out punishment have to do with him having a disease? Unless there's some reference to cancer causing agents being shoved up his ass while in prison, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

And you know, there are such things as medical prisons. Giving this guy treatment for his cancer is compassionate. Feeding him is compassionate. Letting him go home to his family without legal cause is so utterly and profoundly wrong, and the fact that it's another wrong against the people on that plane definitely doesn't make anything right.

Allowing his family to visit him in jail would also be compassionate, still more than any of the families of the passengers got. If I ever need to commit a crime, I'm going to the UK to pull it off because the little wrist slaps people get for all kinds of awful crimes are a joke.

< Message edited by 4u2spoil -- 8/21/2009 2:42:29 PM >

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 2:41:32 PM   
ANRsub


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In regards to the statement

"No one's suggesting the guy be strung up by the balls and sent to a firing squad",

Of COURSE we're not, the firing squad would terribly interrupt the agony of being strung up by the balls. Why give him a mercy bullet? Actually, if we can't do it Roman-style, per a suggestion I made yesterday, then let us study the actions of  his grace, Count Vlad Teppych, "Vlad the Impaler". The whole problem with being a "Civilised society" is that one then finds one's actions bound BY that image of civilisation, when what is oft required is absolute and utter barbarity in limited instances. When one's enemies are not so-bound, then one should feel free to do what is required.

ANRsub

(in reply to 4u2spoil)
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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 3:07:57 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
But 2 wrongs don't make a right. The purpose of the law is to enact justice, not revenge. As others have pointed out, the mere fact this individual showed no compassion doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same; he's got terminal cancer, and will die shortly anyway.


Revenge would be making the guy sleep in an asbestos cell so that he definitely gets cancer. Having someone serve out a sentence handed down by a relatively objective judicial system Is.Not.
A.Wrong. No one gave this guy cancer in jail or forced it on him. So what does him serving out punishment have to do with him having a disease? Unless there's some reference to cancer causing agents being shoved up his ass while in prison, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

And you know, there are such things as medical prisons. Giving this guy treatment for his cancer is compassionate. Feeding him is compassionate. Letting him go home to his family without legal cause is so utterly and profoundly wrong, and the fact that it's another wrong against the people on that plane definitely doesn't make anything right.

Allowing his family to visit him in jail would also be compassionate, still more than any of the families of the passengers got. If I ever need to commit a crime, I'm going to the UK to pull it off because the little wrist slaps people get for all kinds of awful crimes are a joke.


If you were right, I'd agree with you.

Sadly, you're not. The "relatively objective judicial system" you refer to is, according to a senior judge last year, more than capable of making a serious error in locking up someone against whom the evidence was woefully inadequate. Had he not been released on compassionate grounds the likelihood was that he would have won his appeal in a few weeks anyway.

I'm not going to claim that the UK way of doing things is "right", in compassionate leave terms. But it's better than the more punitive alternatives used elsewhere.

All hate does is breed hate. His compassionate release will have positive effects far beyond the short-term annoyance of a misguided bunch of death-penalty obsessed, revenge-crazed individuals.

And if you wish to enter the UK to commit a crime, you’re more than welcome to do so. Had you any experience of prison life here, you’d not make the “little wrist slaps” statement you did. It’s not perfect by any means, but looking at the alternatives, such as the US system, I’m more than happy to live in a country where the law seeks to ensure justice, rather than impose simple revenge. US prison populations, as well as crime, are rising and, most intelligent observers believe, either out of control, or shortly to become so.

And there is where I leave it. I’ve said my piece, and I doubt anyone who’s reading this is open to debate anyway.

(in reply to 4u2spoil)
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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 3:59:17 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

If I ever need to commit a crime, I'm going to the UK to pull it off because the little wrist slaps people get for all kinds of awful crimes are a joke.


This is just ignorant bullshit.

(in reply to 4u2spoil)
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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 4:27:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


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CELEBRATING THE RETURN OF THE CONQUERING HERO
quote:

LONDON/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States and Britain on Friday condemned a "hero's welcome" given to the newly released Lockerbie bomber, with London scrambling to stem fallout from the decision to free him on humanitarian grounds.


"Consider your enemies as they consider you." I don't know who said it, or if anyone famous said it at all; however, the distinctions of cultures, indicated by the celebration documented, can not and should not be forgotten or ignored. Considering this is Libya, the celebrations couldn't have occurred without titular government sanctioning.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 4:36:19 PM   
4u2spoil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
If you were right, I'd agree with you.

Sadly, you're not. The "relatively objective judicial system" you refer to is, according to a senior judge last year, more than capable of making a serious error in locking up someone against whom the evidence was woefully inadequate. Had he not been released on compassionate grounds the likelihood was that he would have won his appeal in a few weeks anyway.


I don't disagree that the justice system isn't without flaws. It's why I don't support the death penalty. For me, death is one thing you can't reverse. In this case, him contributing to the death of 270 people - and while it's debatable as to whether he actually placed the bomb, no one doubts that he at least had advance knowledge of what would happen, is something that cannot be undone. Similarly, executing someone who isn't guilty of the crime they were convicted of can't be undone. If he'd won his appeal and was released, this thread wouldn't be here. I don't think anyone would have a problem with speeding up the appeal process in consideration of his medical condition.

As things stand however, this is a convicted terrorist who served 8 years for killing 270 people. That's an insanely light sentence. Edited to add: the "compassionate" thing to do for all involved would have been to expedite his appeal. If his conviction were upheld, he should have served out his time. If his conviction were overturned, send him on his way with sincere apologies and as much fanfare as Libya could muster.

quote:


I'm not going to claim that the UK way of doing things is "right", in compassionate leave terms. But it's better than the more punitive alternatives used elsewhere.

All hate does is breed hate. His compassionate release will have positive effects far beyond the short-term annoyance of a misguided bunch of death-penalty obsessed, revenge-crazed individuals.


And I'm not claiming the US is right in throwing as many people in jail every year as it does. In some cases it's better than other countries, in some cases it's worse. Every case is different, however the penalties handed down in the UK seem to be extremely lenient compared to the US and other countries. And your last sentence is totally off base. Wanting to see someone convicted of a very serious crime serve out their sentence is not "hate." If he didn't get a fair trial, it should have been corrected and his name restored. Until that time, he should be serving out the sentence handed down. It's hardly "revenge crazed."

quote:


And if you wish to enter the UK to commit a crime, you’re more than welcome to do so. Had you any experience of prison life here, you’d not make the “little wrist slaps” statement you did. It’s not perfect by any means, but looking at the alternatives, such as the US system, I’m more than happy to live in a country where the law seeks to ensure justice, rather than impose simple revenge. US prison populations, as well as crime, are rising and, most intelligent observers believe, either out of control, or shortly to become so.

And there is where I leave it. I’ve said my piece, and I doubt anyone who’s reading this is open to debate anyway.


The US has a whole host of problems with the criminal justice system, and I do my very best not to do anything that would cause me to have to deal with it. However, I seriously doubt that softening up on violent criminal behavior would cause some compassionate wave of peace that caused people to stop being violent.

There seems to be a big disconnect between our definitions of justice and revenge. Revenge to me would be one of the family members running up to this guy and shooting him in the head. Justice is him serving out the sentence handed down to him until and unless that sentence is overturned.

< Message edited by 4u2spoil -- 8/21/2009 5:01:29 PM >

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 4:50:04 PM   
Politesub53


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It was to be expected Merc. I`m not sure why Gordon Brown thought it wouldnt happen.

What gets me is that both America and the UK have forged closer trade links with Libya, despite the fact the Libyan intelligence was thought to be responsible for Lockerbie. I dont recall the same level of indignation back then, as we see now for a dying man being sent home for his last few months.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 4:52:33 PM   
4u2spoil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

If I ever need to commit a crime, I'm going to the UK to pull it off because the little wrist slaps people get for all kinds of awful crimes are a joke.


This is just ignorant bullshit.

Really? Because to me that mother who allowed her child to be punched and beaten to death being eligible for parole in 3 years is ignorant bullshit.

Releasing someone convicted of murdering over 200 people being released 8 years into his sentence (being served in temperate accommodations where he's regularly fed, has access to medical care and drugs to treat illness) is ignorant bullshit.

The UK: if you do the crime, you do the time - but just a little bit, then we give you a stern warning and send you on your way.



(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/21/2009 5:03:57 PM   
4u2spoil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I dont recall the same level of indignation back then, as we see now for a dying man being sent home for his last few months.


A dying man convicted of responsibility for 270 other deaths. Seems you forgot that part.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 100
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