RE: Abortion

RE: Abortion (Full Version)

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SweetNika -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 2:26:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: Yes many people do have latex allergies and some are more severe, there are alternate methods a male can use as a replacement to latex condoms. Far too often I see the males deliberately turning their back on their responsibility after he gets a girl pregnant. those are the ones who need to learn there are just as responsible as the woman. off topic here: The price of regular condoms is ridiculous, bet the cost of the non-latex type is even worse. They need to be made available, free of charge, to these kids locally, not just at Planned Parenthood or the County Health Dept. Actually it is, they can walk into any health department and ask for a "brown bag" and they will be given a bag of condoms. This was something that was started yrs ago, at least every place i have ever lived and i have moved alot,between both coasts.

slaveluci -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 2:27:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah I think it’s funny that everyone wants to talk about the rights being taken away from the guy and not one person has pointed out that the Father has NO SAY WHAT-SO-EVER. He does not get a "Choice" AT ALL. No one seems to think that is unfair? Well, not that anyone seems to have noticed what I wrote...ahem...but I did mention the fact that biology being what it is and all, that it does work out that women have the final say, not men. Unfair or not, seems right since she is the one carrying the child.......luci

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 2:27:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah I would like Abortions to cost as much as a Pregnancy. Maybe then people would not be having them as a form of birth control. So that people understand my own mother has had 4 abortions and YES, I stand by everything I said before even knowing it would apply to my own Mother. You are therefore condemning people to keep an unwanted child, if they do not want the child and say it was an accident (the only way to guarantee you do not get pregnant is to not have sex) if the person cant afford the abortion or the pregnancy what then steel?

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 2:27:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: estah As a female we can always say to the male no gummi not fun. As a male you can always wake up and stop thinking with your dick. [8\|] Good luck with that....

Vendaval -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 2:31:08 PM)
Pro on sex education, access to contraception and abortion and better health care specifically for women in their fertile years and their youngsters.

Phoenixpower -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 2:34:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah I would love to see that an Abortion cost as much as a Pregnancy...... I would love to see that having an abortion would be considered a Serious SURGURY and after two or three the only option being to remove the ability to have children all together as again it is OBVIOUS that you do not want them....... I would love to see people take responsibility for their actions and stop seeing the act of pregnancy as a non-issue...... I would love to see how fast opinions would change if men were the ones who got pregnant.............luci Very well said. Regarding Steelof Utah quote: I think it’s funny that everyone wants to talk about the rights being taken away from the guy and not one person has pointed out that the Father has NO SAY WHAT-SO-EVER. He does not get a "Choice" AT ALL. No one seems to think that is unfair? In Fact he can end up being responsible for Child support for 18 YEARS, shouldn’t he get to decide if she keeps the kid? If you say NO then Yes the ENTIRE RESPONSIBILITY falls onto the woman. If you believe that the choice should be the womans and the womans ONLY then how can you hold the nam responsible for anything if you won’t give him a say in how it is handled? To this I can only say that there is no statistics (as far as I know) about how much men are involved. In my case the guy was involved and did not care once he thought he had "achieved what he wanted" (as he was just after certain papers and once he realised he won't get them that way after he -in addition to other circumstances- pushed me into reaching my decision he did show his nasty side very well indeed after my termination was done which was one of many aspects which confirmed that my decision for me at that time was the right one for me.) Silly me that I ever got involved with him in the first place, but that's another story. However, that being said, THERE ARE women out there who DO INVOLVE MEN in the decision! When I had my appointment actually everyone in that waiting room was with their partner apart from myself. Therefore the selfish line about the poor little man does not get a say is not gonna work with me.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 2:43:10 PM)
I dunno why this thread has reminded me of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

barelynangel -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 3:01:50 PM)
Umm Steel, you are the one who started the whole hell let's sterilize women and i simply said wait a minute why focus on women -- you said well because its EASIER. And you do realize in order for your STERILIZATION plan to WORK women who go in for an abortion would have to be identified as a woman who previously had an abortion and therefore, unless they are going to rely solely on these irresponsible women to tell the TRUTH if a law states they could be sterilized, they would have to have SOME forum of public availability for those PERFORMING the abortion to identify a multi abortioner. Because you don't HAVE to go to the same place. Chuckles, NOW do you understand why i referenced medical records. There would have to be a NATIONWIDE access without patient approval to view her medical records, which means all women would have to have their medical records uploaded into some databank concept. Of course you would like abortions to cost as much as pregnancy its not YOU or MEN who would have to pay for it. Just like most women who do terminate unwanted pregancy is due to the fact the GUY doesn't want to take responsibility of RAISING said child a lot of the times so they terminate instead of trying to raise a kid they can't afford on their own. So yeah, raise the cost of abortion because you believe WOMEN should be saddled witih the responsibility of raising an unwanted kid or the government should if the babies can't get placed for adoption. Oh and Steel you do realize that if a woman doesn't have insurance and has a child SHE not the father is slammed with the hospital bill. They don't go after the father for the cost of pregnancy. Oh but that's okay cause let's raise the price of abortion up to pregnancy level to aleviate COSTS and such so all these unwanted kids can be born to these mothers. A government sanctioned DNA test is nothing compared to what private labs charge people come on Steel be realistic here, hell people can get a home DNA test through the mail nowadays. smirks, due to the fact that you are calling the woman a whore cause god forbid 6 guys could be the father, nevermind those 6 guys were irresponsible enough to possibly BE the father, that's why we get a MALE national data bank versus the female one, this way there can be one test at the time -- test the fetus and then check the database. See we get the MALE DNA test as mandatory so insurance will cover it when they are kids. Steel what you don't get is YOU by the very substance of your posts are stating the FATHER shouldn't be held responsible and should not be sterilized because we KNOW who the mother is. So what? Does that mean the dad gets off -- according to you -- yes because the women shouldn't be a whore and sleep around and get pregnant and be irresponsible. The woman should be held to a higher standard than the Man. Bullshit. You are talking silly and yes, you are advocating WOMEN take all the responsibility for CONCEPTION of children. I am not advocating birth control abortions but your idea of sterilizing women and being so blase` about the guys involved is disgusting. I mean you want to sterilize women all because she does something YOU DON'T LIKE. Aww poor lil guy doesn't get a say --- yeah he did Steel when he said oh yeah baby come to papa. Like i said, why not make it a law that when a man has sex he is acknowledging that his actions may result in conception and he by the nature of agreeing to have sex means he also acknowledges that an abortion may happen. There ya go, all nice and neat putting the responsibility SQUARELY on the guys shoulders -- oh but wait nooo -- it has to go on the WOMAN'S. Give me a break. The law could easily be written placing the responsibility on the Man's just as easily as you want it placed on a woman's. You just don't LIKE my wording of the law because my wording pretty much says that if the guy doesn't want an abortion, he needs to be VERY careful who he conceives with otherwise the mindset is -- not the BEARING of a child but an abortion is the standard fact of occurance. Ya know Steel, you are bitching well what about if the guy wants the kid. Yeah life's a bitch, now go and tell that to the millions of single mothers who are struggling to raise kids alone the guys supposedly wanted so she had them. Steel i also offered solutions but you want to throw insults and tell me i am speaking fantasy. Actually i am not. What you advocate is a loss of medical privacy for women, if you advocate that then you should be capable of advocating a DNA mandate for Men so a test can be done on a fetus and find out who and wear daddy is and how many abortions HE was responsible for by conceiving children so recklessly and casually. Instead you want to sterilize women. grins, btw i never said it should be a woman's decision. You presumed because i believe MEN should be just as responsible of being sterilized as you are claiming women should be, that i agree women should have sole decision making power. I haven't actually given my decision on that yet. quote: Also it should be known that I am suggesting that during the surgery of the abortion for the final time is when the removal of the ability to have children should be done as the Risk is already there it is not compounded by doing the procedure at the same time. How nice neat and tidy for you. Are you remotely for real? quote: Guess what ladies you can always tell the Sperm Donor "NO, Not without a Condom" OMG okay ladies don't fall over cause i say this cause i know we are supposed to be the good girls and take all responsibility on our selves -- hey guys ya know what, you can always say NO to the woman if you decide NOT to wear a condom. Go figure. But i guess men are such weak creatures they shouldn't be held responsible. But Steel has so nicely stated that if you the woman says no -- he won't count your abortion of the rape that occurs cause ya know you said no, and the child that is conceived. How nice and sweet. Steel, you may have this all worked out in your head but it seems you want to blame women but more so STERILIZE THEM for something simply because a a couple had sex and conception happened and an abortion was the result. angel

AnimusRex -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 3:05:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle Just search for any of the threads here about abortion to see this and it usually doesn't end well. Now why would you say that? If there is any topic sure to produce civil, reasoned discourse, it is this one!

marie2 -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 3:12:57 PM)
I'm pro-choice. I don't have any concern or care whatsoever about what other women choose to do with regards to making a choice to terminate a pregnancy or not. I just don't see it as being any of my business in the first place. Furthermore, abortion is not a crime, therefore, I don't think anyone should have to face consequences or punishment of any kind....ie sterilization... or be held responsible to answer to anyone in society for what amounts to a highly personal and often very difficult decision.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 3:15:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah I think it’s funny that everyone wants to talk about the rights being taken away from the guy and not one person has pointed out that the Father has NO SAY WHAT-SO-EVER. He does not get a "Choice" AT ALL. No one seems to think that is unfair? In Fact he can end up being responsible for Child support for 18 YEARS, shouldn’t he get to decide if she keeps the kid? If you say NO then Yes the ENTIRE RESPONSIBILITY falls onto the woman. If you believe that the choice should be the womans and the womans ONLY then how can you hold the nam responsible for anything if you won’t give him a say in how it is handled? You wanna talk about the Guys being given a Choice? Ok - how bout This Choice, then....... My instinct, when I got pregnant with my 22 yr old, was to terminate the pregnancy. Something in my gut instincts screamed at me that it was a BAD idea to continue the pregnancy. Yet instead of listening to my instincts, keeping my mouth shut, and terminating - I told the sperm donor I was pregnant, and gave him an input into the decision as to whether to terminate or carry to term. He was Thrilled at the idea of becoming a father, and insisted that he absolutely wanted me to carry that child, my instincts be damned. So I did. I went through the pregnancy, only to find out when I was 8 months along, that there were probably gonna be problems. He and I had gotten married, because of the pregnancy, and he still swore he wanted the kid - regardless of whatever problems might be involved. He had spent my entire pregnancy telling everyone how I was going to give him a perfect, blond haired, blue eyed son. (Emphasis on Perfect.) 3 weeks later, I went into labor, and 4 hours later - my Daughter was born.... brown haired,brown eyed, very female, and very much Less than "perfect" considering the plethora of problems from neural tube defects. At which point everything with the sperm donor changed - and he no longer wanted anything to do with that child he had had a hand in creating, had been given a voice in whether it was born or not, and had sworn for 9 months he absolutely wanted regardless of whatever problems might show up. I divorced him. I was granted child support in the whopping amount of $150 a month. Which he promptly starting shirking, and spent the rest of Her life until she turned 18 shirking. He hasn't seen his offspring in 21 out of 22 years - he hasn't wanted to, and flatly refused when given the opportunity. His second wife had their marriage annulled on the grounds of Fraud, since he told her he had never been married and had never fathered any children - she found out about his lie when the state caught up to him and started garnishing his paychecks for the almost $15,000 in back child support he owed by that time. Even though there were genetics tests run within Days of when she was born - looking for trisomy syndromes and other genetic information to explain the birth defects - he has spent most of the past 22 years trying to claim that she's not even his child, despite genetic tests as proof that she definately is. My mother was a child of date rape. Her biological father denied that she could be his, claiming "sterility" as the reason. He claimed that until the day he died, despite siring 6 other children on other women. Unfortunately, when my mother was born 62 years ago, there were no genetics tests and no medical means of proving who a father was. If there had been, perhaps he wouldn't have been allowed to summarily shirk his responcibilities for not just one but 3 of the 7 children he eventually donated sperm to produce, at least 2 of those without the woman's consent at all. What CHOICE where THEY given? Abortion wasn't an option even for rape victims at that point in time. So ya know what...... YES, I FEEL IT SHOULD BE STRICTLY THE WOMAN'S CHOICE - because my personal history has proven to me that when Males are given a voice in the decision, they Still attempt to renig on a responcibility they agreed to uphold. When males stop trying to get out of responcibility that they agree to.... when they quit trying to claim that it "can't" be theirs so that they won't be Considered responcible.... then I'll consider the prospect that they should have a friggin voice in what women do with their own bodies.

thishereboi -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 3:21:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop I am not pro-abortion. I AM, however, pro-CHOICE. Yea, what she said.

DavanKael -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 3:22:49 PM)
I am pro-choice. Also, I have been known to call the police on protesters holding gory pictures because I believe that is obscene (Far more than were they holding signs of people engaged in sex acts). Davan

thishereboi -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 3:30:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol I hope you advocate the snipping of those guys that repeatedly get chicks up the duff. Or do you just want to sterilise the 'irresponsible' females? I had a freind who got pregnant 3 times in 6 months by 2 different guys. So would we make them pay for one a peice and split the third. Oh wait, she only had 2 abortions, she miscarried the 3rd one. And yes she got all upset because now she wonders if she will want more kids.

Level -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 4:05:11 PM)
My obligatory contribution to every abortion thread that rears its head: According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the research arm of the nation’s leading abortion provider, Planned Parenthood: At current rates, an estimated 43 percent of American women will have at least one abortion by the age of 45. Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women. Fifty-two percent of U.S. women having abortions are younger than 25 years old. About 13,000 abortions each year are attributed to rape and incest—representing 1 percent of all abortions.3 " Social Reasons (given as primary reason) - Feels unready for responsibility 21% - Feels she can't afford baby 21% - Concern for how baby would change her life 16% - Relationship problem 12% - Feels she isn't mature enough 11% - Has all the children she wants 8% - Other reasons 4-5% TOTAL: 93% "Hard Cases" (given as primary reason) - Mother's Health 3% - Baby may have health problem 3% - Rape or Incest 1% TOTAL: 7% Source: Aida Torres and J.D. Forrest, "Why Do Women Have Abortions?" Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 20 No. 4 (July/August 1988) p. 170. According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, there has been nearly 40,000,000 abortions in the United States from 1973 through 1998. If the above cited statistics are correct, that means over 37,000,000 were for "convience". ------------------- Week 3 At this point, the blastocyst, or developing embryo, is looking for a spot to implant in the uterus. Early formation of the central nervous system, backbone, and spinal column has begun. The gastrointestinal system has also begun to develop with the kidneys, liver, and intestines forming. The heart has begun to form. Week 5 The embryo’s tiny heart begins to beat by day twenty-one. The brain has developed into 5 areas and some cranial nerves are visible. Arm and leg buds are visible and the formation of the eyes, lips, and nose has begun. The spinal cord grows faster than the rest of the body giving a tail like appearance which disappears as the embryo continues to grow. The placenta begins to provide nourishment for the embryo. Week 7 Major organs have all begun to form. The embryo has developed its own blood type, unique from the mother’s. Hair follicles and nipples form and knees and elbows are visible. Facial features are also observable. The eyes have a retina and lens. The major muscle system is developed and the embryo is able to move. Weeks 9-12 The heart is almost completely developed and the heart rate can be heard on a Doppler machine at the doctor’s office. Most major organs and tissues have developed and red blood cells are now produced in the liver. The face is well formed and the eyes are almost fully developed. The eyelids will close and not reopen until the 28th week. Arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, and toes are fully formed. Nails and earlobes start to form and tooth buds develop in the gums. Fetus can make a fist with its finger. Testosterone (male sex hormone) is produced by the testes in male fetus. And so on. For anyone wishing to see images of the fetal development spoken about above, here are a couple of links: http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml or http://www.realalternatives.org/pregnant/fetaldevelopment.htm

thishereboi -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 4:09:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: Yes many people do have latex allergies and some are more severe, there are alternate methods a male can use as a replacement to latex condoms. Far too often I see the males deliberately turning their back on their responsibility after he gets a girl pregnant. those are the ones who need to learn there are just as responsible as the woman. off topic here: The price of regular condoms is ridiculous, bet the cost of the non-latex type is even worse. They need to be made available, free of charge, to these kids locally, not just at Planned Parenthood or the County Health Dept. The local gay bar, Diamond Jims, has a fish bowl full of them for patrons to take for free. Not sure if straight bars do it or not but I think it's a great idea.

HeavansKeeper -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 4:15:57 PM)
I'd like to jump in here about the constitution. It's not a rulebook to life. It's a fallible, working document, meant to travel with the times - hence the ability to amend it. If the forefathers did not want to see amendments, they'd tag something on that read "And if any sahll attempt to change, remove, or add to this treatise, the horsemen of the apocalypse shall be visited upon them." The Constitution is more of a Standard Operating Procedure manual for running the US's republic. Let's be clear on that - the bulk of the constitution is devoted to jerking off in Washington D.C. The Bill of Rights (and 17 [15, in reality] subsequent amendments) are the fun part. Most of these are written as limitations, not affirmations. Take the 19th amendment, Women Suffering =P "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex." It doesn't say "Women are allowed to vote." It says prohibiting them from voting is illegal. You won't find a "Right to Abort Babies" or "Right to Have Children" clause because the pamphlet deals with what you ought not to do. Many people think the first amendment applies. It doesn't. Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. You'd have a time explaining how abortion is an expression of speech. The governmental fuel for abortion comes from the Declaration of Independence. (A completely separate document, and not an article of law. Read on: ...blar blar blar We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. blar blar bar... You won't find "Right to Life" in the Constitution... Because it's in the Declaration of Independence (which, again, was a Dear John letter to King George III). I'll thank you all kindly to leave my precious papers out of your argument. Additionally, any premise based on being "self evident" with no other support is a fallacious. Self evident is a very pretty phrase for "Cause that's the way it is." NOW: On to my post. I believe in a universalized right to life. This means innocent people should not be killed. But I also believe there are fates worse than death. Being born, unwanted, into poverty, disease, hunger, and violence is one example. (Not to hijack this thread, but this view allows me to resolve the apparent discrepancy between life and killing as seen in assisted suicide and abortion) I agree with the concept of people being responsible. But I think it's an illusion. The problem will still arise. Encouraging responsibility is preventative, not retro-active. In this regard, I'm a HUGE proponent of sexual education. In fact, I think there should be optional oral sex classes in schools. It would cut down on the divorce rate AND maybe teenage pregnancy... I believe in taking the best option until the desired option becomes available. Until we can achieve 100% effective birth control (basically "Oh, you want a baby? Take this pill, it will make you fertile again.") We must deal with abortion. I've run out of time, but in short, I'd rather have a system that fights the moral ground all at once then fighting on our moral responsibility to an unwanted child for 85 years.

DomImus -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 4:46:47 PM)
Historically I have been for abortion but I detest the term "pro-choice". That's a moniker devised to cover up the fact that you know you are doing something pretty bad. However, in my later years my pendulum is swinging in the other direction. Many of the very same people who support abortion would love to rid the nation of firearms. They cite the 'carnage' of fewer than 50,000 firearms deaths per year including suicides but they are okay with 800,000 to 1,000,000 abortions performed each year. Quibble all you want about when viable life begins but if that fetus is left undisturbed it will result in a human life. It's becoming harder for me to support their 'right' that is nowhere to be found in the Constitution while they would love to deny my right that is right there in black and white. So theoretically I support it but I am becoming less so in practice.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 4:49:49 PM)
Comparing abortion to gun crime?

DomImus -> RE: Abortion (8/21/2009 5:01:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally Comparing abortion to gun crime? The comparison is quite clear and very relevant. Your inability to grasp it is your own. Let them put their money where their proverbial mouths are.

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