Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 3:57:09 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

the trouble is is that you first and last sentences are still as obuse as ever.
(Quoted as written)

Glad to help you out. I'll keep all the references on an elementary level - Wikipedia.

The first sentence...."Wow - running another play from the Jimmy Carter Presidency play-book."

Once upon a time there was a very nice, kind, and good intending man called Jimmy Carter. An evil paranoid man called Richard Nixon was President and because of his paranoid stupidity destroyed any confidence a responsible person could have in the government of the United States. The people wanted someone with no experience and connection to the 'insiders' in Washingto DC where all Presidents live. They elected that exactly in the person called Jimmy Carter. He was a VERY good man who was an officer on a submarine, grew peanuts, and lusted in his heart for woman, but never ever ever acted upon that lust.

When Mr. Carter became President Carter he thought everyone in the world was nice and good like him. He also thought that all those secret groups like the CIA, were 'bad' because they kept secrets on people and that very bad man, Mr. Nixon, used them for doing bad things. So President Carter took away most of their money and toys, and stopped them from doing anything 'secret'.

One of the best friends of the CIA was a man called the Shah of Iran . Sometimes he was good, sometimes he was bad, but because he was a friend of the CIA and sometimes told them secrets, President Carter didn't like him. So President Carter made friends with another man who called himself the Ayatollah Khomeini.

The Ayatollah fooled President Carter who thought he was a good religious man who would do better for his people than the Shah. But guess what? As soon as President Carter got rid of the Shah and put in his friend the Ayatollah, the Ayatollah had a big party where he and all his religious followers laughed and taunted President Carter for being so silly and stupid for believing him.

You see, because President Carter had taken all the money and power away from the CIA he didn't know any of the Ayatollah secrets. The Ayatollah became a very powerful man and he collected many men just like him who hated the US and tried to destroy it. He even took over a big house in the Ayatollah's far away land where many US people lived and worked and kept them there for 444 days until, guess what? President Carter wasn't President any more and a whole bunch of different people came and got to live in Washington and good ideas that President Carter had, like alternative fuels (that's like gasoline which make cars go vroooom!), and social responsibility, and just being 'good' like him were quickly forgotten.

Soon everyone in Washington belonged to a 'special interest'; which isn't like 'special class' but instead just means they are doing things to benefit business and industries and not people. And they live there to this very day.

When President Obama takes away all the toys, money, and ability from the CIA now, he is starting an action similar to President Carter. When another bad man, like the Ayatollah takes advantage of it, all the people in the US may end up with the most evil, bad, and strict people moving back into Washington when they blame him and all his friends for the bad things that happen because the US doesn't know anyone else's secrets.

Then, nobody will live happily ever after...

The last..."since Gitmo is still open, will he investigate there - or just use it for those bastard CIA agents trying to determine where the next 9/11 incident will occur?"

Once upon a time, when President Obama was Mr. Obama and soliciting votes he committed to closing a place the the US occupies in Cuba and has a military base called Guantanmo Bay, or GITMO for short. At this base, there because of a long standing lease, a prior President, now a mister, put some people he thought were 'bad' and had done bad or planned to do 'bad' things to this country. They didn't wear uniforms but claimed to be at 'war'. Were they prisoners of war, or just bad men who committed a crime? Where they entitled to a trial for their crimes or should they be held as prisoners? Well, neither the prior President or Congress, or all his advisers could decide so the 'bad' men sat there.

While they were sitting there, some men from an organization called the 'Central Intelligence Agency' or CIA; established during a war referred to as WWII to collect information and protect the security of the USA, chatted with them to try to find out if any of the bad men friends had plans to do more bad things like flying planes into buildings occupied by civilians; as had happened in a place called NYC on 9/11/2001.

Now some people, Mr. Obama being one of them, thought that the people from the CIA were a bit too harsh in the techniques used in questioning the 'bad' men. He said that the prison on GITMO should be closed, announcing he would do so just as soon as he became President Obama. And guess what, he did become President and he did sign an order to close that evil prison!

But no other place in the world wanted the 'bad' men sent to them. Not any of the States in the United States, not any country. So Gitmo is still there and so are the 'bad' men.

Now, President Obama has been sad. Nobody seems to want to do any of the good things he wants to do. Worse they are blaming him for not doing any of the the things he said he was going to do. So President Obama and all his friends in Washington decided that this would be the perfect time to yell at the men from the CIA and prosecute (that means put them in jail) them for getting answers to questions that may have saved US citizens' lives, but were only answered because the 'bad' men thought that the CIA men were going to hurt them and their families. So, President Obama thinks the CIA men are the REAL 'bad' men and wants them to go to prison.

The sentence you don't understand, was suggesting that President can use the same place in Cuba, Gitmo, to house those evil CIA men since he thinks that even if they may have protected us, they should not get answers by holding their heads under water or threatening to beat or their families. President Obama wants to sit down and talk to all the bad men so that we can all live-Happily ever after....

quote:

you have been quite amusing also.
Thank you! Please continue to contribute!

(in reply to rikigrl)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 4:00:17 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline
I don't like it sub I think it is revolting but it is possible it is necessary. If our intelligence services are ung these methods I would like to know why. If the reason is that it is an excellent information gathering tool and that they are practicing this regardless of the Geneva convention then I think there is a case to be made to bring it to England and impose rules on it that make the services more accountable. I don't agree in torture for punishment or retribution in any form but if the information from this is saving lots of lives then there is cause at least to debate the issue.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 4:01:13 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
cute but wiki is absolutely wrong then. We quit supporting shah an shah as we did idi amin and poppa doc duvalier and khadaffi and some others (and for about the same reasons), but never supported kholmeni.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 4:04:23 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
If our intelligence service is using these methods, I want to bloody well know why as well. They, like you and I, are not above the law.

As for it being an excellent intelligence gathering told, I would lie my arse off if I was being tortured, I would even implicate you and Sanity.

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 4:08:16 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline
Absolutely I agree
Sub, and if these practices are not particuarly effective then I think it should remain utterly illegal. I suspect though given that most western intelligence servs have been implicated in torturng prisoners over the years that there must be decent results.
It's very easy to implicate me in anything Sub I am a naturally guilty person

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 4:12:47 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

I suspect though given that most western intelligence servs have been implicated in torturng prisoners over the years that there must be decent results.


Nope, again, I clamp a vicegrip to your nuts, you will say anything I want you to and have me believing it, but it made for good chickenhawk policy, governmental non-combatants like wolfewitz, cheney, bush and so on, as well as joe the plumber types were thinking, by god, we are fighting fire with fire now. No more than a feel good kinda thing for the radical right

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 4:14:57 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

Possibly the best post ever, Merc.

Bravo

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 4:18:16 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline
Which is why I would like to know the results from the torture ottertail to see if it has been effective or not. Presumably if you would say anything and you knew what they wanted you would tell them what they wanted to know so I can see if they had the correct individual how it could work at least in theory. Either way I would like to be able to judge for myself and my nation as a whole.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 4:28:08 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

That's mostly top secret, personally I believe for political reasons more than anything. Here is one article which discusses some of the recent developments along the lines of the questions you are asking, which are some good questions by the way.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/213620

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 4:42:42 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline
Cheers for the link Sanity that's an interesing article. I'm sorry but i'm knackered [sleep deprivation is a dead cert for breaking me] we'll carry this on tommorow it's a good topic I think.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 9:07:46 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
At the risk of being ridiculed for being a cock-eyed optimist, and unrealistic, but I kind of like the idea of being able to say "My country is superior to yours because we don't torture people". Saying "My country is superior to yours because we don't torture as many people" or even "My country is superior to yours because we don't torture people as badly as yours" does not have the same ring to it.

I also happen to believe that my country has the ability to protect itself without resorting to torture. I just believe we are better than thugs who need to waterboard someone hundreds of time to find out what we need to know to be safe. I have that much faith in my country and the people in it.

I would hate to be disappointed in those beliefs.



(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/25/2009 11:54:38 PM   
rightwinghippie


Posts: 276
Joined: 8/12/2009
Status: offline
But as a Democrat ( I assume you were a supporter of President Clinton), you do go around saying, we export our torture, and then use the information given to us to kill people.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 1:10:06 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

But as a Democrat ( I assume you were a supporter of President Clinton), you do go around saying, we export our torture, and then use the information given to us to kill people.


Not to mention listening in on calls made by American's in America, via Echelon.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 6:00:52 AM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

But as a Democrat ( I assume you were a supporter of President Clinton), you do go around saying, we export our torture, and then use the information given to us to kill people.



RWH, from someone who had a major hissy fit over the late Ted Kennedy's "Partiasn politics" (see the thread on Ted Kennedy's proposal for changing the rules of senate succession), I find it interesting that you decide to turn a simple statement that torturing prisioners is a morally less desirable position than not torturing prisoners into a partisan slam. Yes, I do most support Democratic politicians. No, I don't find torture any more pallatable when a Democratic administration engages in it than when a Republican administration does.

I say it again, simply and directly. When one is looking to figure out who the good guys and the bad guys are, those who use torture are seldom the good guys.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 9:24:07 AM   
rightwinghippie


Posts: 276
Joined: 8/12/2009
Status: offline
"Hissy fit", thats a good one SOT. My feelings are hurt.

Throw more insults, It proves your point.


MAybe SOT just isn't very aware of recent history. But under Clinton the USA illegally kidnapped people, and turned them over for torture, and then used the intell from the torture. I can get you Gore's quotes on the event, "(P) of course its illegal thats why its covert. The guys a terrorist, grab his ass." If you want to go through the silly game of denying and demanding truth.

The first line of the OP is,

"WASHINGTON – The Obama administration launched a criminal investigation Monday into harsh questioning of detainees during President George W. Bush's war on terrorism,..."

So this is a partisan prosecution, limited to just Bush era. Not the 'crimes" from the preceeding years.

Just a prosecution of Bush Era events. This is political. Why is Obama making it that way?

Again I am sure you will disagree. But I think that political prosecutions of the previous admin is very corrosive to the concept of Democracy and rule of law.

Just as changing the law willy nilly, wasting tax money, to benfit one party dircetly is.

But I suppose I am just a "Hissy" or what ever insult you will use.










(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 9:31:29 AM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie


MAybe SOT just isn't very aware of recent history. But under Clinton the USA illegally kidnapped people, and turned them over for torture, and then used the intell from the torture. I can get you Gore's quotes on the event, "(P) of course its illegal thats why its covert. The guys a terrorist, grab his ass." If you want to go through the silly game of denying and demanding truth.



While I'm sure you will spin this till it gets dizzy and falls down, there is a difference between a covert opperation and a stated policy that became a national disgrace. Part of the reason that these prosocutions are necessary is that the Bush administration worked so hard to contend that torture was legal, ethical and necessary. By bringing it into that arena, they created the need for a public examination of these ideas and the actions they caused to be carried out.

As for the facts behind this, I neither said I supported nor opposed the idea of prosocutions of Bush and/or Bush administration officials for carrying out these tortures. I said simply that I am opposed to torture because I would like to live in a country that does not engage in torture. It is regrettable that you choose to take this simple statement of humanity and try to spin it off into a "well look at what the other side of the asile did" argument.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 9:31:31 AM   
Grofast


Posts: 52
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline
I am a bti confused are these [eople taken at and held at GTIMO combatants that were taken under arms agenst the united states i dont remeber having to merandise POWs taken durring the 1st gulf war. More evedaNCE at the degeneration of a nation. America needs a new spine to do what must be done we are fighting a new type of war the Isreal has foght for fourty years we need to take lessions from them

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 9:43:06 AM   
rightwinghippie


Posts: 276
Joined: 8/12/2009
Status: offline
And to be clear, I do think that outsourcing torture is far worse, both morally and pragmatically, than the methods described so far.
Actually burning someone is worse than a mind fuck. Actually raping famillies is far worse than a mind fuck lie/threat.
But to base American action (going out to kill people) based on what we are given from nations like Syria is ridiculous.



Let me take a detour and adress another common point, raised by MNot (it's really a common point almost a mantra on the left).

Torture can indeed be used to extract a confession. Under durress, a person can be forced to say "anything" you want. Anything can be confessed to.

But you can also ask for the truth (which the subject has the same incentive to give as above). And you can also point out, that the information will be checked out and there will be consequences for lying. At that point you are going to get real info.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 9:49:00 AM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie


Let me take a detour and adress another common point, raised by MNot (it's really a common point almost a mantra on the left).

Torture can indeed be used to extract a confession. Under durress, a person can be forced to say "anything" you want. Anything can be confessed to.

But you can also ask for the truth (which the subject has the same incentive to give as above). And you can also point out, that the information will be checked out and there will be consequences for lying. At that point you are going to get real info.


Once again, it seems we are going to have to disagree. I think torture ethically abominable as a policy. You seem to think it's ok. I prefer my view, personally.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 9:52:28 AM   
rightwinghippie


Posts: 276
Joined: 8/12/2009
Status: offline
"While I'm sure you will spin this till it gets dizzy and falls down, there is a difference between a covert opperation and a stated policy that became a national disgrace. Part of the reason that these prosocutions are necessary is that the Bush administration worked so hard to contend that torture was legal, ethical and necessary. By bringing it into that arena, they created the need for a public examination of these ideas and the actions they caused to be carried out.

As for the facts behind this, I neither said I supported nor opposed the idea of prosocutions of Bush and/or Bush administration officials for carrying out these tortures. I said simply that I am opposed to torture because I would like to live in a country that does not engage in torture. It is regrettable that you choose to take this simple statement of humanity and try to spin it off into a "well look at what the other side of the asile did" argument. "


MY bad SOT. I had thought your comment was related to the thread and OP. Now that you have pointed out, how it is not related to anything in the thread, and is just a disjointed statement of no relevance. I see that my post 50 makes little sense.

However there are Dems who support the Obama policy, of a selective party based "investigation", so post 50 applies to them, not you.


Feel like expanding on your contention, "there is a difference between a covert opperation and a stated policy that became a national disgrace." Because I think it is jibberish/nonsense.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078