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RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 9:57:21 AM

rightwinghippie

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Actually SOT the "put words in my mouth game" is rather dull and intellectually weak.

No where in that post did I say I approved of torture. I was simply pointing out that an oft raised point in the surrounding debate is not valid. Obviously you can't show I was wrong, so you attack me and my morals....

I think when a person argues against what they want to pretend another is saying it is mental mastrubation not debate.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)

Post #: 61

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 10:10:31 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie
Let me take a detour and adress another common point, raised by MNot (it's really a common point almost a mantra on the left).

Torture can indeed be used to extract a confession. Under durress, a person can be forced to say "anything" you want. Anything can be confessed to.

But you can also ask for the truth (which the subject has the same incentive to give as above). And you can also point out, that the information will be checked out and there will be consequences for lying. At that point you are going to get real info.

First: if you know the answer or can get it, you don't need to torture some one.....
Second: with your nuts vicegripped you don't give a fuck about some future threat, your world consists of the here and now only, anything in the future even 60 seconds away is a fuckin fantasyland.

No, this is a very common faulty mantra of the right, never having had their ass on the line for anything, when they can send the middle and the left to do it.

lets say for instance luckydog, that I am an interrogator, lets pretend you are someone who was in the vicinity of the Reichstag once. Lets pretend that you know nothing about the Reichstags having ever been burned, lets pretend that I have no way of knowing exactly who burned the Reighstag, but I am forced to believe that somebody knows something and you were in the area so.........

I clamp a vicegrip on your nuts.....(you have been forced to stay awake 3 or 4 days) you have been forced to remain squatting for a day.....

you say: geez Mr. I that sorta burns.......
I say: Yeah, exactly what I wanted to visit with you about today......Who burned the reichstag
you say: dunno
I say: bullshit, you know something
you say: I don't know what to tell you pal, haven't a clue.
I say: who burned the reichstag (and twist the plier)
you say: hey, you are kinda going way overboard here, in my opinion..

Yeah, how long we gonna keep this up before you say, OK Goddammit!!!I did.........?
and as I twist again, I say: I think you are a fucking lying luckydog, I really don't think you know a fucking thing.....
and you say: let me convince you of it then........

Screams, gurgling sounds from waterboarding, vomiting from your being slathered in pork, those cute little sissy sounds of revulsion you made when you were pressed in the bathtub with the maggots........

all redacted from the tape and transcripts as intelligence gleaned for national security reasons so that your poor ol ma and pa don't have to hear that shit on the nightly news........

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/26/2009 10:14:19 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 62

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 10:31:51 AM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

No where in that post did I say I approved of torture. I was simply pointing out that an oft raised point in the surrounding debate is not valid. Obviously you can't show I was wrong, so you attack me and my morals....

Then you would agree with me that torture as a policy is morally reprehensable whether it works or not? If so we are in complete agreement.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)

Post #: 63

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 3:51:23 PM

rightwinghippie

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Again SOT the words in the mouth game is lame....Didn't say that.

Why don't you start a thread and give some definitions, and then I will comment.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

Post #: 64

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 3:56:03 PM

rightwinghippie

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Lots of blather Mnot, but you didn't say anything.

Yes you can force someone to admit to anything.

And you can generically ask for info, while letting the subject know its going to be checked and better be true.

And lets remember that most of what you are alledging is simply made up.

No one was kept up for 4 days
or Squating for 24 hrs
or had a vice grip put on thier nuts
or Pushed into a tub of maggots
or slathered in pork.

but who cares about reality.....

(in reply to rightwinghippie)

Post #: 65

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 4:08:41 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

Why don't you start a thread and give some definitions, and then I will comment.
ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Again SOT the words in the mouth game is lame....Didn't say that.

Why don't you start a thread and give some definitions, and then I will comment.

Tell you what, RWH.....you give me the words you want defined and I'll be glad to.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)

Post #: 66

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 4:08:51 PM

mnottertail

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Blather?
So where were you December 7th 1941?
Does the phrase 'Day of Infamy' ring a bell?

And how would you have any intimate knowledge of anything I was saying was just made up?
You know absolutely nothing about it, aren't in anyone's confidence, and cannot with any confidence or truth allege truth or untruth to anything.

For a fact!!!!!!! detainees were made to stand in frozen positions for long periods of time, waterboarding was done, their religious convictions were trampled on.......ad infinitum.

That is common knowledge and not redacted.

Your bellicose and uniformed squealings are even embarrassing to those who hold tolerably defensible positions on the side you are trying to ingratiate yourself with.

Go away, child.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/26/2009 4:11:44 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 67

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 4:36:12 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

And lets remember that most of what you are alledging is simply made up.

No one was kept up for 4 days
or Squating for 24 hrs
or had a vice grip put on thier nuts
or Pushed into a tub of maggots
or slathered in pork.

but who cares about reality.....

What? Have you been living in a monastery for the last eight years with no access to the outside world?

Or is it you just want to deny what has been documented numerous times and several people are in prison for?

New Details of Prison Abuse Emerge (washingtonpost.com)New Details of Prison Abuse Emerge Abu Ghraib Detainees' Statements Describe Sexual Humiliation And Savage Beatings

Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia

Beginning in 2004, accounts of physical, psychological, and sexual abuse, including , rape , sodomy , and homicide of prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (also known as Baghdad Correctional Facility) came to public attention. These acts were committed by personnel of the 372nd Military Police Company of the United States Army together with additional US governmental agencies.

Report Details Alleged Abuse of Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib ... Jun 18, 2008 ... Update from the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer: Report Details Alleged Abuse of Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib Detainees: The alleged abuse of 11 men, ...

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/26/2009 4:41:01 PM >

(in reply to rightwinghippie)

Post #: 68

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 4:39:04 PM

mnottertail

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LOL, rule------

luckydog is going to come back and obfuscate and deny and you are only pretending he isn't, and won't you look the fool, when he has his way with you.

I am going to force you to accept that not only is he uninformed, he can't even argue rationally.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 69

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 4:56:30 PM

Sanity

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Abu Ghraib abuse consisted primarly of rogue soldiers who were punished for their crimes, while the subject here in this thread is CIA interrogations.

You're wandering way off topic.

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Post #: 70

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:01:06 PM

mnottertail

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Though heavily redacted, the version of the report made public this week documents stomach-turning practices, apart from the hundreds of waterboardings, which we already knew had occurred. There was emotional torture: One detainee was told that if another attack occurred, his children would be killed, and another was told that, if he didn't cooperate, the interrogators would "get your mother in here." There were near-strangulations, mock executions and threats to maim prisoners with power drills.

We also know, however, that the CIA employees who behaved in this abhorrent and -- for Americans -- aberrant way were acting in many cases under the direction of sinister private contractors whose services had been retained by the Bush/Cheney White House.

Similarly, the administration had, at the highest levels, manipulated the Department of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel into rendering opinions legally sanctioning all this. Not only did the president, vice president and their most powerful aides create a climate in which torture was permitted, they actively -- indeed, relentlessly -- pressured intelligence professionals to produce information they believed prisoners were concealing.

that gets it back on track

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 71

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:15:22 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Abu Ghraib abuse consisted primarly of rogue soldiers who were punished for their crimes, while the subject here in this thread is CIA interrogations.

You're wandering way off topic.

Bullshit!

The topic is the tactics that were used.

And I can give you numerous links that those "rogue soldiers" were acting under orders, or at least an official atmosphere that encouraged these things.

Which is exactly what the topic is about and whether we are going to see the prosecutions of those higher up the chain that authorized or knew this was going on.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 72

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:19:31 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Abu Ghraib abuse consisted primarly of rogue soldiers who were punished for their crimes, while the subject here in this thread is CIA interrogations.

You're wandering way off topic.

...well, seems to me the topic is to do with the legality or otherwise of using torture against those suspected of being terrorists.
Not convicted mind you, not even seen committing such acts necessarily..........it's about the legality or otherwise of torturing people who were handed over to US soldiers and who were alleged to be terrorists by people being paid money to do the alleging.
Now, we have a number of people who appear to be saying, never mind the legality feel the necessity. Bad things happen when you're being attacked by terrorists.

Fair enough.

i assume that those who defend this practise would also have defended UK forces in the 70's picking Mrs O'Leary out of Tesco in Belfast and torturing her for evidence of terrorism, all because her next door neighbour Mrs Watson told security forces that Mrs O'Leary was clearly a terrorist. The fact that Mrs Watson was paid for said information is neither here nor there.

Now, would my hypothetical situation be a reasonable and sane action on behalf of the UK government, or the act of a morally bankrupt and terminally stupid government?

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 73

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:23:55 PM

Sanity

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No, look up at the top of the post. The topic isn't rogue soldiers in Iraq, its 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎.

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Post #: 74

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:34:01 PM

willowspirit

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If anyone thinks for one minute about this, you'll figure out it's all a frame-up sort of baiting of the persons doing the "torture", and typical "DIS-information" tactics to throw the "other side" off their game.

The U.S. doesn't even need or use such stupid methods.
We have much better -- and FAR more accurate -- methods of getting information out of any prisoners of consequence. We can chemically create trust and openness in their minds. We can make them believe they are confiding in a dear friend...

This whole thing is just a smoke screen for what really happens. Bush White House "ordering" it??
I have a shovel for that manure.
The "torturers" were psyche-profiled to simply do what would come naturally to them.

Set-up and given the freedom to enjoy it.
Which they did... Watch the videos.

Emotional torture??
My teenagers put me thru much worse than that on a sometimes daily basis! Come on...
really...
"bringing their mother in" ?? "Killing his children"!
Those things are ALREADY daily fears in the terrorists world anyway.
They made peace with those possibilities LONG ago.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 75

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:44:00 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willowspirit

If anyone thinks for one minute about this, you'll figure out it's all a frame-up sort of baiting of the persons doing the "torture", and typical "DIS-information" tactics to throw the "other side" off their game.

The U.S. doesn't even need or use such stupid methods.

I'm pretty sure you thought for at least a minute about it.

Who knows, might have even been two.

So, all the documentation that we have of those "stupid methods" being used was just fake?

(in reply to willowspirit)

Post #: 76

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:44:25 PM

rightwinghippie

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"Go away, child"

Got to love the level of debate. Leftists in full glory here.

As soon as Clinton, Gore, and Panetta are brought in this investigation, I will drop my assertion that this is utter partisanship. I am talking about the OP, not wandering around in hijack/distraction land.

You have to laugh at this crap,

"For a fact!!!!!!! detainees were made to stand in frozen positions for long periods of time, waterboarding was done, their religious convictions were trampled on.......ad infinitum. "

3 assertions, 2 that I did not make, and one that Mnot changed from his previous use. I suppose some of the "intellectuals" on the left will miss that.

Can't argue against what I wrote, so you make up stuff and argue against it....

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 77

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:49:30 PM

rulemylife

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Speaking for myself, and leaving the other "leftists" out of it, (I do so like putting labels on everyone, makes us easier to distinguish) I would be more than happy to see Clinton and anyone else engaged in this prosecuted, regardless of party.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)

Post #: 78

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:58:53 PM

Sanity

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You raise an interesting point in my mind. In the world these terrorists inhabited, horror was most likely a part of their daily life, these guys were real killers and torturers in their own right. Any interrogation methods... would have had to include familiar frames of reference.

Threatening to withhold the marshmallows from their hot cocoa probably wouldn't have had the necessary impact.

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Post #: 79

RE: 'Inhumane' CIA terror tactics spur criminal probe‎ - 8/26/2009 5:59:48 PM

SpinnerofTales

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Without mentioning names, I begin to see what Barney Frank meant by likening talking with some people like arguing with a diningroom table.

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Post #: 80

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