RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ...

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mnottertail -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/27/2009 4:07:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Creative Dominant But stating that an idea is eerily similar to that of a long-gone totalitarian regime is something that should, in my mind, be given at least some serious thought. ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales How about stating that an idea is "eerily" similar to a system employed by almost every industrialized, democratic nation on earth being given some serious thought? Nazi Germany threw people in prison camps as enemies of the state, without benefit of the law, to investigate the veracity of the states claims. Bush administration thew people in prison camps as enemies of the state, without benefit of the law, to investigate the veracity of the states claims. Therefore; those in the Bush administration are Nazis, an equivalence that needs investigation. Or, wasn't I supposed to get that out of those precepts? Ron edit: quoting got clipped and removed the coherence. *NB: this is not a proffer that it is coherent now.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 7:19:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: But stating that an idea is eerily similar to that of a long-gone totalitarian regime is something that should, in my mind, be given at least some serious thought. ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant How about stating that an idea is "eerily" similar to a system employed by almost every industrialized, democratic nation on earth being given some serious thought? And yet I don't notice England and Canada trying to take over the world. I don't see the French trying to commit genocide in order to further their idea of a master race. Ok...they think Jerry Lewis is a genius, but that's not quite as bad as the nazi agenda. But hey, far better to cast back to nazi Germany for an example of a country with universal health care than any of the current, non-totalitarian countries that have it in one form or another and don't seem to have either people dying in the street or jackbooted thugs dragging people off to extermination camps. If they are and I just happened to miss the report on Fox news, please tell me.. How about this.....Obama considers Japan an ally. Nazi Germany considered Japan an ally. MY GOD! OBAMA is a nazi! I'm gonna give that some real serious consideration. Yes...and Bush was a nationalist which, in some segments of the left, made him a Nazi. I've never stated that I thought these people were right and it certainly would not have been the comparison I would've made. But just as many on the left have a way of arguing for the bigger message of their brethren, many of us on the right have that same tendency. Please do not go the flippant route with me...at that point, you are no longer worth discussing anything with because I don't care to have every point I make met with sarcasm. And Ron? People on the left already compare Bush, Cheney, et al to Nazis. Of course, those thrown into these camps have not been citizens of this country nor have they been uniformed soldiers covered by the Geneva convention, they have been terrorists not entitled to consideration under the Geneva convention. But this has all been argued out on these boards before also, has it not?

philosophy -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 8:10:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant ....those thrown into these camps have not been citizens of this country nor have they been uniformed soldiers covered by the Geneva convention, they have been terrorists not entitled to consideration under the Geneva convention. ..have to say CD, i've thought your posts in this particular thread have been very interesting and bordering on non-partisan (don't tell Sanity or he'll egg your house). However i do have to take issue with the bit i've quoted above. As has been pointed out on these boards a number of times, those who ended up at Gitmo were not terrorists, but alleged terrorists. Some put there on hearsay evidence that was bought and paid for. Evidence which subsequently proved utterly false. Now, some of those alleged terrorists really do have a case to answer, for some the evidence is somewhat more compelling and thats a different case. However to contend that all those who ended up at Gitmo or who suffered extraordinary rendition at the hands of US authorities were proven terrorists is false. Some of them were totally innocent of the allegations against them....some of them were tortured in foreign countries at the behest of US authorities. While fighting terrorism is important, a scattergun approach like this is counter-productive. Two wrongs don't make a right........

FirmhandKY -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 8:13:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant ....those thrown into these camps have not been citizens of this country nor have they been uniformed soldiers covered by the Geneva convention, they have been terrorists not entitled to consideration under the Geneva convention. ..have to say CD, i've thought your posts in this particular thread have been very interesting and bordering on non-partisan (don't tell Sanity or he'll egg your house). However i do have to take issue with the bit i've quoted above. As has been pointed out on these boards a number of times, those who ended up at Gitmo were not terrorists, but alleged terrorists. Some put there on hearsay evidence that was bought and paid for. Evidence which subsequently proved utterly false. Now, some of those alleged terrorists really do have a case to answer, for some the evidence is somewhat more compelling and thats a different case. However to contend that all those who ended up at Gitmo or who suffered extraordinary rendition at the hands of US authorities were proven terrorists is false. Some of them were totally innocent of the allegations against them....some of them were tortured in foreign countries at the behest of US authorities. While fighting terrorism is important, a scattergun approach like this is counter-productive. Two wrongs don't make a right........ How many of the remaining prisoners in Gitmo are "non-terrorists", philo? Firm

philosophy -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 8:26:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY How many of the remaining prisoners in Gitmo are "non-terrorists", philo? Firm ......at least one that i know of. Omar Khadr. By every definition except the one used at Gitmo he was a child soldier and, as such, should have been classed differently. Even the eye witness testimony against him has flaws. However, i am glad you used the word 'remaining'. i don't know the precise figures but a lot of innocent people were finally released from Gitmo. After some years of being held without charge, and in some cases not even knowing the allegations against them. The system that put people there was fatally flawed. i understand why this is not officially acknowledged, because there are some there that really do need to answer in a court of law. Such an acknowledgement would prejudice those court cases. However that should not stop ordinary citizens from around the world pointing out how foolish Gitmo is/was. Hopefully no civilised country in the future will just lock a bunch of people up, merely on hearsay evidence, and tell themselves this somehow helps prevent terrorism. It doesn't.....all it really does is give credence to anti-American sentiments that create terrorism.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 8:30:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: But stating that an idea is eerily similar to that of a long-gone totalitarian regime is something that should, in my mind, be given at least some serious thought. ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: Yes...and Bush was a nationalist which, in some segments of the left, made him a Nazi. I've never stated that I thought these people were right and it certainly would not have been the comparison I would've made. But just as many on the left have a way of arguing for the bigger message of their brethren, many of us on the right have that same tendency. Please do not go the flippant route with me...at that point, you are no longer worth discussing anything with because I don't care to have every point I make met with sarcasm. Without sarcasm, it appears that you give credence to the idea that the fact that nazi Germany had some form of universal health care is in any way relevant to the discussion of America adopting health care reform. I say that that is a ridiculous concept. The nazis also wore pants. Does that have any relevance to the fact that Americans wear pants? By the way, just to avoid confusion, I do view the wearing of pants as a good thing and am not objecting to it. The fact is, that words like "nazi" "communist" "socialist" are being thrown around far too losely by both sides in issues these days. Giving it any credence is not a positive step. As for your not liking my writing style, feeling I am too flippant or disliking a sarcastic turn of phrase, rest assured that I willl give it all the consideration it merits.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 8:32:56 AM)
I guess the $64,000 question is ... how, then, do we defend ourselves against an enemy who doesn't wear uniforms, who uses the civilian population as a shield, a cover, and a first line of defense, and mostly will claim when captured that they are "just another innocent sheepherder", and then use the US civilian courts to obfuscate, confuse, delay and deny? In other words, they use our very desire to "be fair" to destroy us? Firm

mnottertail -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 8:34:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant And Ron? People on the left already compare Bush, Cheney, et al to Nazis. Of course, those thrown into these camps have not been citizens of this country nor have they been uniformed soldiers covered by the Geneva convention, they have been terrorists not entitled to consideration under the Geneva convention. But this has all been argued out on these boards before also, has it not? Habeus corpus and bills of attainder are covered in the constitution, and the 'enemy combatants' which never actually appears thingie is an amendment. My whole issue is that habeus corpus should have been adjudicated in a (supposedly impartial) court of law in each and every case. That is not a power granted the executive or legislative branch. Once they are found to be 'enemy combatants' under due process, you can shit down their throats and call them Sally, for all I give a fuck.....torture away. But until that is first done....you can hold them as prisoners during the time of danger, but they get three hots, a flop, lights, heat, dignity, and are given the rights of american citizens in our prisons, no torture, no enhanced interrogations they are just in timeout. Ron

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 8:42:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I guess the $64,000 question is ... how, then, do we defend ourselves against an enemy who doesn't wear uniforms, who uses the civilian population as a shield, a cover, and a first line of defense, and mostly will claim when captured that they are "just another innocent sheepherder", and then use the US civilian courts to obfuscate, confuse, delay and deny? In other words, they use our very desire to "be fair" to destroy us? Firm You see, Firm...this is where we differ. I happen to have enough faith in my country and the people within it to believe we can keep ourselves safe from terrorists, who are, for the most part, not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Oh sure, there is the occaisional Bin Laden, but how many other terrorists have the advantage of being trained by the CIA to blow things up? You, on the other hand, seem to think we are not advanced enough, intelligent enough or thorough enough to protect ourselves without lowering our moral standards to the level of those we fight. It's a shame you think so little of your country.

philosophy -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 8:47:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I guess the $64,000 question is ... how, then, do we defend ourselves against an enemy who doesn't wear uniforms, who uses the civilian population as a shield, a cover, and a first line of defense, and mostly will claim when captured that they are "just another innocent sheepherder", and then use the US civilian courts to obfuscate, confuse, delay and deny? In other words, they use our very desire to "be fair" to destroy us? Firm ....fair question. Let's, for the sake of argument, merely consider terrorism to be a crime like any other crime. Let's drop the emotional baggage that comes with it. Ordinary criminals do all the things you mentioned above. They don't wear striped jerseys, little masks and bags that say 'swag'. They live and hide among ordinary civilians. When caught they will claim to be car salesmen or unemployed actors. They will use the court system to delay, confuse, obfurscate and attempt to deny justice. They, once caught, do all the same things you mentioned above. However no-one is seriously suggesting that all that means the legal system should be suspended. Broadly speaking the court system works. What has happened here is that because terrorism is seen as a unique type of crime, so faulty logic suggests a different sort of justice. It simply does not follow. i would also suggest that our desire to be fair is not a mere option. It is, to a large extent, what a lot of terrorists want to destroy. Suspending it ourselves is saving them a bullet or two. It's a form of cultural suicide.

mnottertail -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 8:50:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I guess the $64,000 question is ... how, then, do we defend ourselves against an enemy who doesn't wear uniforms, who uses the civilian population as a shield, a cover, and a first line of defense, and mostly will claim when captured that they are "just another innocent sheepherder", that is going to take some heads getting together, along with how do we survive in a global economy, and all the other things that advancements and changes in relative positions, and whatnot that need addressing. Yanno, the judicial constitutional conference on the changing face of war, economy, ecology.......and law needs to be created or amended. quote: and then use the US civilian courts to obfuscate, confuse, delay and deny? once again, law; constitutional amendment. You know, this 'Rule of Law' that has been winged around here overmuch and misused unconsionably as of late. quote: In other words, they use our very desire to "be fair" to destroy us? I agree Firm, we need to reconsider our notion of fair in terms of the globe. But as I survey the panorama unfolding around me, I am not astonished to see that we are still standing. Ron (p.s. I hope I got all the quote boxes right, so this don't get crapped up, if not, go for the best possible light course when considering my statements)

rightwinghippie -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 10:52:32 AM)
"Let's, for the sake of argument, merely consider terrorism to be a crime like any other crime. Let's drop the emotional baggage that comes with it. Ordinary criminals do all the things you mentioned above. They don't wear striped jerseys, little masks and bags that say 'swag'. They live and hide among ordinary civilians. When caught they will claim to be car salesmen or unemployed actors. They will use the court system to delay, confuse, obfurscate and attempt to deny justice. They, once caught, do all the same things you mentioned above. However no-one is seriously suggesting that all that means the legal system should be suspended. Broadly speaking the court system works. " The thing is there is a significant difference. A regular Criminal does what he does to get ahead in the society he lives in. He wants to cheat the system, not destroy it. He wants better things for his children, not to destroy thier home. People in war are not treated as crimnals. Never have been, no one else does. That is a brand new thing. We don't need to change the law to deal with it.

mnottertail -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 10:57:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie A regular Criminal does what he does to get ahead in the society he lives in. He wants to cheat the system, not destroy it. He wants better things for his children, not to destroy thier home. Terrorists are generally trying to get ahead in their own society, and are destroying systems that are not theirs, as a way to get ahead in theirs. I have to believe one of the major reasons that Trinidad and Tobago are not besieged by terrorists is that they have never imperiously fucked in the affairs of other countries, in recent history, causing ill will and backlash. Ron

FirmhandKY -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 12:10:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I guess the $64,000 question is ... how, then, do we defend ourselves against an enemy who doesn't wear uniforms, who uses the civilian population as a shield, a cover, and a first line of defense, and mostly will claim when captured that they are "just another innocent sheepherder", and then use the US civilian courts to obfuscate, confuse, delay and deny? In other words, they use our very desire to "be fair" to destroy us? Firm ....fair question. Let's, for the sake of argument, merely consider terrorism to be a crime like any other crime. Let's drop the emotional baggage that comes with it. Ordinary criminals do all the things you mentioned above. They don't wear striped jerseys, little masks and bags that say 'swag'. They live and hide among ordinary civilians. When caught they will claim to be car salesmen or unemployed actors. They will use the court system to delay, confuse, obfurscate and attempt to deny justice. They, once caught, do all the same things you mentioned above. However no-one is seriously suggesting that all that means the legal system should be suspended. Broadly speaking the court system works. What has happened here is that because terrorism is seen as a unique type of crime, so faulty logic suggests a different sort of justice. It simply does not follow. i would also suggest that our desire to be fair is not a mere option. It is, to a large extent, what a lot of terrorists want to destroy. Suspending it ourselves is saving them a bullet or two. It's a form of cultural suicide. Well, RWH gave one reason that terrorism is not the same as regular crime. I'll give you what I consider another, more important one: they goal is to kill, and kill as many as they can, and as many helpless civilians as they can. They seek maximum murder, to introduce the most fear and destruction of the system that they can, and they do it as part of a widespread movement - both within and from outside of our civilizational system - which has no interest in "profiting" from our systems, other than to continue our murder, and the destruction of the very rights and rule of law that they attempt to use against us. From a biological prespective, criminals are parasites with a limited reach, and limited objections, who wish to suck out an unfair advantage to our system. Terrorist can be seen as competing predators who wish to supplant and feast on our bones. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 12:14:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales You, on the other hand, seem to think we are not advanced enough, intelligent enough or thorough enough to protect ourselves without lowering our moral standards to the level of those we fight. It's a shame you think so little of your country. Uh huh. Mind-reading, I see. Firm

CreativeDominant -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 12:36:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant And Ron? People on the left already compare Bush, Cheney, et al to Nazis. Of course, those thrown into these camps have not been citizens of this country nor have they been uniformed soldiers covered by the Geneva convention, they have been terrorists not entitled to consideration under the Geneva convention. But this has all been argued out on these boards before also, has it not? Habeus corpus and bills of attainder are covered in the constitution, and the 'enemy combatants' which never actually appears thingie is an amendment. My whole issue is that habeus corpus should have been adjudicated in a (supposedly impartial) court of law in each and every case. That is not a power granted the executive or legislative branch. Once they are found to be 'enemy combatants' under due process, you can shit down their throats and call them Sally, for all I give a fuck.....torture away. But until that is first done....you can hold them as prisoners during the time of danger, but they get three hots, a flop, lights, heat, dignity, and are given the rights of american citizens in our prisons, no torture, no enhanced interrogations they are just in timeout. Ron But that is just your opinion, along with many others, is it not...tis not actual law. The laws regarding what can and cannot be done with those engaged in actions against us who belong to no organized military of any country and who are not citizens of this country have been endlessly debated and have still wound up murky.

mnottertail -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 12:41:28 PM)
Agreed, CD, but that's what's on the plate. I feel the Holder investigation is going to go to the Supreme Court many times, if anything goes to trial. Ron

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 12:44:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales You, on the other hand, seem to think we are not advanced enough, intelligent enough or thorough enough to protect ourselves without lowering our moral standards to the level of those we fight. It's a shame you think so little of your country. Uh huh. Mind-reading, I see. Firm Ok...then let me ask you. If you do think we are strong enough, advanced enough and intelligent enough to protect ourselves without resorting to the same tactics we decry in our enemies, why would you think those tactics are desirable and/or allowable?

CreativeDominant -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 12:48:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: But stating that an idea is eerily similar to that of a long-gone totalitarian regime is something that should, in my mind, be given at least some serious thought. ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: Yes...and Bush was a nationalist which, in some segments of the left, made him a Nazi. I've never stated that I thought these people were right and it certainly would not have been the comparison I would've made. But just as many on the left have a way of arguing for the bigger message of their brethren, many of us on the right have that same tendency. Please do not go the flippant route with me...at that point, you are no longer worth discussing anything with because I don't care to have every point I make met with sarcasm. Without sarcasm, it appears that you give credence to the idea that the fact that nazi Germany had some form of universal health care is in any way relevant to the discussion of America adopting health care reform. I say that that is a ridiculous concept. The nazis also wore pants. Does that have any relevance to the fact that Americans wear pants? By the way, just to avoid confusion, I do view the wearing of pants as a good thing and am not objecting to it. The fact is, that words like "nazi" "communist" "socialist" are being thrown around far too losely by both sides in issues these days. Giving it any credence is not a positive step. As for your not liking my writing style, feeling I am too flippant or disliking a sarcastic turn of phrase, rest assured that I willl give it all the consideration it merits. quote: Remind me to run your last phrase by you next time you are the one asking for a serious discussion. As for throwing certain terms around, I agree...many times, they are used too loosely. As for comparing the medical system of Nazi Germany to the Obamacare plan, let me state once again...I did NOT state it. I would NOT have used the same argument. The argument, in terms of similarities between the two systems, is---while not completely, 100%, every-point-lined-up---there are dissimilarities...still valid. About as valid as the argument brought forth on an earlier post comparing Gitmo and other camps that we have set up for detaining people to the Nazi concentration camps. They are similar...they are camps, the people within them cannot leave, and...in some cases...the reasons for holding some of these people appear to be obscure. Of course, there are dissimilarities...we aren't gassing the people to death, we aren't starving others of them to death, we aren't bringing them into factories or taking them to the fields to work as slave labor, we aren't machine=gunning them down for minor infractions and---the last I heard anyway---we haven't put any of them into a mass grave yet. Oh yes...the great majority of the people in the Nazi camps hadn't done ANYTHING to the citizens or the governement of the country that held them.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Denver Dem HQ vandalized by Republican Health Care Protesters ... (8/28/2009 12:49:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales You, on the other hand, seem to think we are not advanced enough, intelligent enough or thorough enough to protect ourselves without lowering our moral standards to the level of those we fight. It's a shame you think so little of your country. Uh huh. Mind-reading, I see. Firm Ok...then let me ask you. If you do think we are strong enough, advanced enough and intelligent enough to protect ourselves without resorting to the same tactics we decry in our enemies, why would you think those tactics are desirable and/or allowable? Now you wish to ask a loaded question? I don't beat my wife either. Ask real questions, and evince a real desire to enter into a dicussion and we can have a conversation. Otherwise, go fish. Firm

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