Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Asking vs Manipulating


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Asking vs Manipulating Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 5:52:58 AM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Asking is when I simply request something and then let the chips fall where they may. I accept his answer no matter what it may be. I don't push or prod him. I don't nag him. I don't continue to beg or plead.

Manipulation is when I will use whatever I can to make sure I get what I request. I will not just accept his answer. It becomes all about me.


I would tend to agree here.  But I may beg once or twice, but when He says "No," I stop after that.  I don't continue and whine about it.  Continuing on  & whining about whatever it is would be manipulation too, IMO.

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 6:15:54 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

Asking a question -- interrogating me -- is often a manipulation, because it is a scheme to evade directly expressing the real feeling. The vast majority of supposed questions are more directly expressed by stating the real and core feeling.

"Sir, may I please have a spanking?" That is not direct and up front.
"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." That is a much more direct expression. It demands respect, and includes an affirmative choice from the strength of self will.






_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to aldompdx)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 6:42:04 AM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I answered better in your other thread. But the short answer is that asking is what the sub does. Getting manipulated is something that the dom can only do to himself.



This is a good answer.

And this is such a thorny question to try to answer. A lot of dominants answer it, with good success, by letting the submissive/slave ask/ask for absolutely anything they want to and then they decide, through their knowledge of that individual and through training their perceptiveness and powers of observation (assuming they weren't born with these talents) to the point where they can ascertain whether it is asking or manipulation.

I define manipulation in the broader sense of doing something in the world to cause a response. Your hands "manipulate" the wheel so that your car stays in your lane of traffic. This definition includes, of course, the subcategory of manipulation that involves using deception to better attain one's goal.

You could say that all communication of any sort with any person, animal, or thing is an attempt to "get" something. If you say "hi" to someone it's usually because you want them to say "hi" back. If you ask for directions, it's because you hope to hear how to get somewere. If you pet a dog, you're usually hoping it'll do something friendly back (or at least not bite you). If you pick up a rock and put it in your pocket it's to obtain some gola: maybe you like the rock and want to possess it. Maybe you're sucidal and near a body of water. Either way, it's still a manipulation, an attempt to "get" something. If the object of your communication says hi back or wags its tail or helps sink you to the bottom of the lake, then you've just completed a successful manipulation.

If all communication at its core is essentially manipulation then the only way a submissive can be prevented from manipulating is if she completely deprived of all means of communicating, even a shudder or a slight noise in the back of her throat. The situations I can think of where that would be possible are highly dangerous and of no particular gratification to either partner. Some of the very best horror/true crime stories are based upon them, however!

There are many partical ways through the thorns of this issue. One is to get to know the submissive well enough so that you can tell when her communication involves a type of manipulation that you don't like or want and when it's something else. As your knowledge grows, so will either your trust or else your unease. A few submissives are compulsive liars or knee-jerk manipulators, but most of us prefer not to have such control over a dominant and smart dominants work that tendency. Which brings me to a second way of getting through the thorns of "is it asking or manipulation?" Simply stated and echoing leadership's reply to you, just become better at manipulation than she is.

I'm curious to know what it is in these scenarios that your sub is asking for? A sip of water? An orgasm? That she be untied so she can go watch Desperate Housewives? The cessation of pain? Or do you mean her asking for everything and anything? If I was a dominant my response to her asking would vary a lot depending upon what she was asking for (and of course, when she chose to ask for it). Does your response vary?

As a submissive in a relationship with you gets to know you, she going to become more capable of predicting or anticipating your responses. That's a natural byproduct of familiarity: if you could stop that from happening you'd also stop the positive aspects of familiarity (trust, fondness, better service, increased loyalty) from developing as well. But remember, most sincere submissives do not want or like to manipulate their dominants. Therefore, you can use that to manipulate them. Finally, familiarity works both ways. You can learn to tell when your submissive is attempting to deceive you. It just takes practice and a willingness to truly observe them. Even an otherwise good submissive will occasionally attempt this, as it's a way to learn in a practical (Hands-on? ;) ) way where the boundaries of their enclousure lie. The "brats" that you hear people talking about with varying degrees of fondness find that they like the experience of testing boundaries and frequently attempt to repeat it. An otherwise good submissive going through a troubled or very stressful period in her life might also do this.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 6:43:07 AM   
metalmiss


Posts: 341
Joined: 5/4/2005
From: Croydon, UK
Status: offline 		Asking is mearly giving Me information regarding her moods, wants and cravings, wether I indulge them based on that information is My decision she knows I might or I might not, there is no expectation either way.

Playing up wouldn't elicit a play session. For one thing I don't DO play punishment, if there is a problem I find out why and maintain discipline. Playing up and trying to push until I react is only likely to get her ass timed out, forbiden to move, knelt in one spot thinking about what her actions mean until I decide I want to discuss her wayward behaviour, at length. she gets plenty of possitive attention, she doesn't enjoy the kind of attention (What there is of it) that would come of trying to manipulate.

The biggest 'problem' We had was that in the past she had a 'dom' who didn't communicate.... she had to learn that is was permitted and possitive to do so. Luckaly she is a fast learner, though sometimes she will just suck up her wants and needs for far too long before communicating, getting to the stage where I spot her frustration and it being Me that initiates discussion about it... she is getting better though and she still doesn't try to manipulate even if she is craving something.


_____________________________

"The longing to serve, to submit, to abandon oneself sexually, emotionally, and physically makes one a slave either to a Man, a Woman or to God. Submission to that passion is divine degradation." - Dorothy C. Hayden

Owned by RavenMuse

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 6:44:17 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Balls, Thats was of course Me!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to metalmiss)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 8:47:14 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Asking for something is direct and straightforward.

Manipulation is indirect and subtle.

In our relationship, asking is a means for Alandra and I to transfer authority over our wants and desires. Manipulation, is retaining the authority over our wants and desires and trying to get them fulfilled through indirect means.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to RebornMaster)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 9:51:51 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RebornMaster

This idea has come up in another thread so I thought I'd pose it here to see what your opinions are.

what is the difference, if any, between a sub/slave Asking for something vs trying to Manipulate the situation? I'm not trying to be a smart ass...my slave and I have discussed it and have had some interesting discussions.

there are rules and most of us have slow and/or safe words. Is using that slow/safe word not manipulating the session, or asking for a time out which is as said, manipulation? but then, if a sub/slave asks in a certain way for something which is ok to the Master is she then still trying to manipulate? why is it "just" asking?

or am I getting too much in to semantics? Is it if s/he asks for something against the rules that it's manipulation? but doenst the slow/safe word slow down or stop whatever is going on which is breaking rules?

damn...not sure how to ask this...I hope you all get the point. What is, in your opinion, the difference between Manipulation and Asking for something? I'd love to hear your opinions on it :)



Now I know I am oft a pedantic and mostly a stickler for procedure and indeed a complete pain in everyone's arse. I honstly don't give a flying fruit bat who it is, if some one askes me for something, they have a jolly good chance I'll lean over backwards to help them if it is with in my providence and ability to do so, however try to manipulate me and I will play you are your own game and make you work much harder and earn what it is you seek if it pleases me to allow you to have it. We had a delightful lass staying with us for a couple of years, a jolly good friend who informed me that she was a Master Manipulator before she moved in. It wasn't untill I pulled the rug from under her a few times that she realised that I had allowed her to appear to be manipulating me because it amused me to watch her dig the hole deep enough to bury her in. After that we got on even better. A slave has an ebven better chance of sucess if she is manager to master the art of begging sweetly with out resorting to tears which I see as a form of manipulation. All a matter of using the proper format. manipulating in my home or my book is just not cricket y'know. Some one tried to manipulate Neets because she has a huge heart and oft a soft touch, it is a clap of thunder to a goose's fart that I will land on that person with my size 14 hobnailed boots from a great height.

Asking/begging for something is honest and honourable.

Manipulating is mental masturbation of the worst kind.


< Message edited by IronBear -- 8/29/2009 9:53:11 AM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to RebornMaster)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 10:51:30 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Now I know I am oft a pedantic and mostly a stickler for procedure and indeed a complete pain in everyone's arse.

Who? You? *laughs*

quote:

I honstly don't give a flying fruit bat who it is, if some one askes me for something, they have a jolly good chance I'll lean over backwards to help them if it is with in my providence and ability to do so
How terribly pragmatic and generous of you. Those two traits, however, are surely going to eat into your domly street cred :) I am often mystified at the logic which says that I should be a good, generous, honest and helpful person to everyone in the world but Carol. Out of everyone that I would be inclined to "lean over backwards" to help, she'd be numbers 1-2,000,000 on the list.

But, as you say, it helps a lot that Carol doesn't every try to manipulate me. I get her real self, which sometimes includes tears, but never with the intent to manipulate.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 11:21:05 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		G'day Jeff,

It boils down mate that I honestly don't give a damn about domly street cred, ~ chuckles ~ I leave that to those who worry more about what others think of them instead of doing what should be natural to them.. being them selves. Just the way I was born and raised I immagine. neets is like that too as are her parents. Mother and Father were like that too. I found that Neets, her folks and mine gained more credibility for being themselves and enjoyed as I do the simple pleasure of helping someone if the need is there. What goes around comes around and I have lost track of how many complete strangers have gone out of their way to lend me a hand too. You know me mate, I just tell it as I see it and try not to overly ruffle too many feathers. If I make a mistake I have no problems in appologising even if that is on a public forum. Wouldn't be the first time I've posted an appology to someone who is sporting a brand new, never been used arsehole I reamed for them.  I'd reckon that you and Carol have things pretty good between you which makes you one of the lucky ones.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 12:05:27 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

there are rules 

Yes, there are rules but sometimes life can get sticky. A very simple rule when R. and I are together is that there are no closed doors between us.  I can imagine there may be a time I would request to close a door.  It is realistic to accept there will be occasional changes in circumstances, and I don’t believe it is manipulative to let my dominant partner(s) know if something may prevent me from following that rule.  In a recent thread, I believe it was in the Ask a Master forum, several people posted the reminder that we who are submissive want to obey and please.  Have a little trust and faith that your partner will strive to do her best in her submission to you! Because if you don't have that there are much bigger problems than feeling manipulated!


quote:

  Is using that slow/safe word not manipulating the session, or asking for a time out which is as said, manipulation? but then, if a sub/slave asks in a certain way for something which is ok to the Master is she then still trying to manipulate?  

Both the dominant men in my life require the use of safe words.  As S. explained it to me, he needs to trust me just as much as I need to trust him.  He relies on my feedback so he can enjoy his sadistic tendencies and not worry that I would allow him to harm me.  He can push the intensity if he wants because he trusts that I know the difference between ‘that hurts like a bitch!’ and ‘you need to call 911’. 
quote:

 why is it "just" asking?

Because it is information, not a demand. 
Both R. and S. encourage and require me to express my wants.  From the submissive side of the kneel I can tell you that some of my requests fall under the category of ‘be careful what you ask for’ because they are both sadists and they have devious minds and I sometimes get much more than I asked for! 

< Message edited by catize -- 8/29/2009 12:14:43 PM >

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to RebornMaster)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 1:11:40 PM   
WyldHrt


Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Balls, Thats was of course Me!

LMAO! I wondered when metalmiss got her switch on, RM


_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 4:23:24 PM   
sexisubi


Posts: 373
Joined: 11/23/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RebornMaster

This idea has come up in another thread so I thought I'd pose it here to see what your opinions are.

what is the difference, if any, between a sub/slave Asking for something vs trying to Manipulate the situation? I'm not trying to be a smart ass...my slave and I have discussed it and have had some interesting discussions.

there are rules and most of us have slow and/or safe words. Is using that slow/safe word not manipulating the session, or asking for a time out which is as said, manipulation? but then, if a sub/slave asks in a certain way for something which is ok to the Master is she then still trying to manipulate? why is it "just" asking?

or am I getting too much in to semantics? Is it if s/he asks for something against the rules that it's manipulation? but doenst the slow/safe word slow down or stop whatever is going on which is breaking rules?

damn...not sure how to ask this...I hope you all get the point. What is, in your opinion, the difference between Manipulation and Asking for something? I'd love to hear your opinions on it :)



funny thing happened the other day that reminded me of this thread, i was looking for some literature on bdsm i came across an artical talking about this exact thing dont manipulate dont manipulate but the poster never said what it was, and i am more and more convinced to go with leaderships answer. no one can be manipulated unless they allow it. for example lets say for arguments sake i want something i have a Master or Sir or whatever they prefer i ask for something... they say no.. i beg... they say no.. so i throw a tantrum like a little kid.. thats childish they will see through it say no, or -they- can change their mind... where can i go from there not a lot of manipulating i can do there you know..
second scenario... i have a Master/Sir, i want something s/he says no... i kiss them on the cheek i say ok and walk away... now at this point the Dominate partner can be pleased cause s/he made a decision that was what s/he wanted or, s/he could be like well you know it wouldnt really ruin my plans either way, the choice was theirs in either case. who had control over the situation?

the dominate partner cause they made the choice and eventually the person followed no matter the way you look at it, no matter the actions each party took, the outcome is that of the one in control. So i just cant see this to be possible.

edit: really the only thing i can see is the submissive completely disobeying, and doing what they wanted even after the person said no... now in that case it is a break in dynamics where the two parties would want to deal with the situation.


< Message edited by sexisubi -- 8/29/2009 5:17:56 PM >

_____________________________

bound by love,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIvvaqUdDm8

(in reply to RebornMaster)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 4:49:11 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		> Making my wishes known = asking whether they can be fulfilled

> Asking what another will do is more direct than stating my own feeling

> Free to say anything (in the form of a question)

> Asking is more transparent than stating

> Direct is passive, and contingent is active


The problem is that too many people have been taught from childhood that it is wrong to own their feelings, and directly express them. Instead, they are taught to hide their feelings couched in the safety of a question, for fear of the unknown response.
"I want a candy."
"SHUT UP, and ask (plea) nicely!"
"Mother, may I please have a little tiny bit of candy."
"You do not want any candy because it will spoil your appetite for dinner."
In this example, both the direct expression and the feeling itself are invalidated and denied. A child will internalize this, and learn a different basis for expression and repression which are carried into adulthood.

In the context of this thread, asking a question is the passive way to evade taking responsibility for how one feels. Often, the construct is so deeply indoctrinated that it is accepted as a normal way of being, and no alternative is apparent. Or, direct (active) expression of feeling has been convoluted into "passive" aggression.

"May I please have...," is not a question of whether you would be pleased. It is a question of whether satisfying the request would be within the pleasure of the giver. Yet, that has been taught to be the "direct" way of fulfilling the underlying feeling of desire or need.

If one goes into a store, and sees the open tub of chocolate ice cream, which is the direct and active expression?
"I want a chocolate ice cream cone." -- "Yes, ma'am."
"Will you please serve me a chocolate ice cream cone?" -- "No, Ma'am. Vanilla is a much better flavor. Everybody else today bought vanilla. Why would you want chocolate?"
The direct answer is again the first statement, which owns the feeling or preference. However, a person will too often engage in passivity by trying to justify why they actually want chocolate, since they are unable to directly express their feeling.

Incessant questioning is interrogation. It is also a form of topping from the bottom. While it is passive in the first order, it demands attention in the second order.

This paradox is rationally and pragmatically borne out in the above replies. Asking for something is not a direct statement that something is wished for. It is a request that an implicit (indirect) wish be considered and fulfilled. It is a game of Jeopardy. What at first seem to be external egg shells, are actually the inner egg shells of unacceptance and invalidity, which inhibit a person from honestly and transparently expressing their deeper feeling.

It is easy to share a naked body. It is much more difficult to share a naked heart.

Just try "I speak" for a day. The difficulty is your own inability to be transparent and honest about how you really and truly feel.

Most American's fail to fully comprehend the trauma which many people in other cultures and societies of the world have endured at the hands of oppressors, dictators, and tyrants. In such environments, an active statement can literally get you killed. Thus, people learn to improve their chances of survival by communicating as passively and non-responsibly as possible, by indirectly expressing their feeling in the form of an innocent little question. It is the asker who fears the askee.

"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking."
That is constructed to illustrate the point -- "I would love a spanking."
A partner in control already knows that he/she has the power to respond with:
direct communication by the physical act of a spank; or,
"not right now." ("I hear your feeling, and would love to share the experience with you later.")

The bottom line is that indirect communication in the form of a question (or worse--"you speak") perpetuates conflict, whether internal or external.


(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 5:08:59 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RebornMaster

what is the difference, if any, between a sub/slave Asking for something vs trying to Manipulate the situation? I'm not trying to be a smart ass...my slave and I have discussed it and have had some interesting discussions.

there are rules and most of us have slow and/or safe words. Is using that slow/safe word not manipulating the session, or asking for a time out which is as said, manipulation? but then, if a sub/slave asks in a certain way for something which is ok to the Master is she then still trying to manipulate? why is it "just" asking?

or am I getting too much in to semantics? Is it if s/he asks for something against the rules that it's manipulation? but doenst the slow/safe word slow down or stop whatever is going on which is breaking rules?

damn...not sure how to ask this...I hope you all get the point. What is, in your opinion, the difference between Manipulation and Asking for something? I'd love to hear your opinions on it :)


let me begin by stating i do not agree with the sacrifice or negation of the slave's voice. questions, moments of discontent, and resistance are natural human emotions. it is my opinion that feelings are never wrong and the individual should be encouraged to express what she feels, even when her admission may be contrary to what the dominant desires or wishes to hear.. the actions that follow after these have been communicated or acknowledged are what's most telling.

intent is at the heart of the question you're posing. as a slave i accept that my desires may go unmet, and what i deem correct may be in contradiction to what he says. in the best of circumstances we're each permitted to present our feelings on the subject before a decision is made. however, this isn't always the case. for circumstances with an established protocol in place, it is my belief that if she finds it difficult or feels compliance is a challenge, she should be prepared to articulate this and give detailed reasons why the problem exists. merely saying i don't know while valid does little to shed light and could inevitably bring about a reaction she was not seeking.

this requires introspection and an honest assessment of her discontent, along with respect and a sincere willingness to understand the dominant's perspective. in regard to expectations and the role they play in scenarios such as this, when speaking of a slave they must be directly addressed. they are detrimental, wholly counterproductive, and form a barrier between his will and the outcome she's predetermined in her head. the conflict will continue until they've been released and replaced with a spirit of service and willing acceptance that no and not now are oftentimes what is best.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to RebornMaster)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 5:16:09 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RebornMaster

what is the difference, if any, between a sub/slave Asking for something vs trying to Manipulate the situation? I'm not trying to be a smart ass...my slave and I have discussed it and have had some interesting discussions.


The difference or no difference is determined by the Dom/Master. Period. Full stop as we say in the UK.


_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to RebornMaster)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 5:25:25 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Is using that slow/safe word not manipulating the session, or asking for a time out which is as said, manipulation? but then, if a sub/slave asks in a certain way for something which is ok to the Master is she then still trying to manipulate? why is it "just" asking?

or am I getting too much in to semantics? Is it if s/he asks for something against the rules that it's manipulation? but doenst the slow/safe word slow down or stop whatever is going on which is breaking rules?


To me, manipulation is -never- about directly -asking- for something. It is also not about providing additional information, whether or not it changes my original decision (part of being 'the boss' is being able to change my mind when better or different information makes that the best thing for me to do).

Manipulation is when I say "no" or "this is the way it's going to be", and the servant either mopes or whines, or goes crying to one of our other family members, or sulks around, or uses other passive-aggressive means of attempting to turn the decision around and get what xhe wants, even when I've made my position clear. Directly -asking-, or using a pre-arranged safeword (for those who use them) isn't manipulation... it is directly and openly providing information for a decision... and I can -still- choose to continue or to decide, and the servant would abide my choice. The fact that I -won't-, for example, continue once a servant has said that xhe's uncomfortable with something happening in a scene is what enables us to develop trust... but the use of a safeword (or, in my case, any expression of the need to slow down or stop an activity, since I don't use safewords), or a servant asking for a favor isn't manipulation.

Ok, I don't use "slow/safe" words -- so if someone says, in the midst of an activity, "hey, slow down" or "Whoa" or "NO" or "Owieowieowie", I'm going to slow down and check and see what's going on. Normally, I check off and on anyway, just by asking "Hey, you doing OK?", to which I may get a nod or a grunt or some kind of acknowlegement... or even a dazed look (which it is then my responsibility to interpret as "DANGER" or "ZONING", and which I need to know what "normal" looks like to be able to assess). I don't consider using a stopping word in a scene as "Manipulation" of the scene -- it is just a natural adjunct to doing intense, and sometimes dangerous things. It is something that comes about because people have fluctuations in what they can face at different times, and being "in charge" of a scene means, in my mind, being responsible for making sure that the activity stays positive for everyone, which includes making sure that one is not damaging one's bottom. To me, just -using- a safeword isn't "manipulation", it is just providing information on which I can base a decision about the safety and health of the bottom.

Now, as far as the issue of 'manipulation' and safeword use, where it borders on manipulation might occur in a situation where I had a bottom that was constantly hollering "Stop" or "no" after just a couple of strikes or pricks or before we made a single cut, even after originally saying that xhe wanted to participate in the activity in question... but this is one of those 'devil in the details' situations, because what I would be asking myself is whether this person -really- wanted to do that activity at all... sometimes, a servant will think they can do something out of the desire to please a Keeper, but will discover, inadvertently, that xhe's not ready, once it comes time to get down to brass tacks, and will use the safeword as a tool to try to keep from doing something that xhe found out that xhe couldn't just "suck up". Whether this is "manipulation" or not really depends on whether xhe comes clean when I ask hir whether xhe ever plans on being able to go through with the activity, or whether xhe's discovered that it's just too much for hir. If xhe continues, say, four or five times to use this technique, then, for me, it's slid down that slippery slope of "manipulation", because I already know, by this point, that xhe isn't going to do what xhe said xhe was going to do. If this is someone for whom my -only- relationship with them revolves around this activity, then chances are pretty good that we're not going to have a relationship after a few times of this happening, just because to me, this looks like we're not compatible. If we have other things besides this that enter into our relationship, I just take this activity off the "to do" list for now, and move it to the "try later" list -- or sometimes to the "never again" list... and that's OK and doesn't really impact my overall relationship with that servant, just because xhe can't bottom for this activity.

Dame Calla



< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/29/2009 5:45:35 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to RebornMaster)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 5:36:08 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

"Sir, may I please have a spanking?" That is not direct and up front.
"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." That is a much more direct expression. It demands respect, and includes an affirmative choice from the strength of self will.


See, now this would be the -exact- opposite, for me. I would see the -first- example of "Sir, may I please have a spanking?" as being direct, and the second example of "Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." as a manipulative "buttering-up"... not at all to the point, and vague enough that I have to guess whether the servant would be asking for a -spanking- or just trying to get on my "good side" for some other insidious purpose we hadn't gotten to yet.

Dame Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to aldompdx)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 5:36:41 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Man i pul at e(everything). If I am manipulating, I am trying to pull the dominant's strings. I don't do this. As a matter of fact, if I find out I can, I still don't, but can no longer submit to that person any longer. I don't believe there is anything wrong in persistent asking. It shows the importance of what is requested. Rarely do I simply make a request. I usually go on to explain why I made such a request. As far as he is concerned, I am just offering up information. If more information is needed to come to a decision, he will discuss it further with me.

In a manipulative mode, a person will pull at anything and everything to get the other person to bend to his/her will. The person make others believe their own ideas derived from the other person. A person may try to use emotional tactics or even subtle allusions to threats. It only works if the other person chooses to allow it or is unaware it is happening. I tend to know when I am being manipulated. For the most part, I simply refuse or decide that I want to go along with it. On a rare few occasions, I have be completely blindsided. Once I was aware, however, there was a heavy price to be paid. I had to regain any semblance of respect that I might have once had and the other person had a very long road ahead ever being someone I could trust again. It is a very costly and silly game.

A person speaking out loud a need or want is making that part of themselves known. How deeply another wants to know that part is entirely their choice. I don't burden others with excess information. I do offer it freely when I know they have an interest. Sometimes, I don't even know why I am asking for something. It may even be that I have picked up cues that another is wanting something. I remember very clearly asking to go out to dinner during a recent visit. I wasn't hungry yet, but his body language indicated he was. I asked if we could go to dinner. There was no hesitation when he agreed and we left. He asked me later about it only for me to not really have any clue why I had asked until he had sat me down and had me think about it. He gave up no power or control by agreeing to my request. As a matter of fact, that would have been stupid considering he would have been depriving himself just to make some point that need not really be made.

I have been known to decline a request simply to see how badly it was desired or needed. A person that let it drop didn't need it too bad after all. A person who resorted to attempts at manipulation probably wanted it very badly, but knew the request was inappropriate for any number of reasons. Those who just continued to gently and politely state what they wanted and why, genuinely wanted or needed it and knew I would grant it when I was able or desired to do so. I saw giving up and manipulation as a deep lack of trust in me. Why would I ever deny someone what they truly needed or wanted deeply? That's just an abuse of power to me. I will do what I want when I want in my dominant relationships. I will trust that what I want and need are important to my partner and he will take the best care of me he can within my submissive relationship. Power and control aren't the issue. Trust and respect are.

lovingpet

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 5:55:22 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

"Sir, may I please have a spanking?" That is not direct and up front.
"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." That is a much more direct expression. It demands respect, and includes an affirmative choice from the strength of self will.


See, now this would be the -exact- opposite, for me. I would see the -first- example of "Sir, may I please have a spanking?" as being direct, and the second example of "Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." as a manipulative "buttering-up"... not at all to the point, and vague enough that I have to guess whether the servant would be asking for a -spanking- or just trying to get on my "good side" for some other insidious purpose we hadn't gotten to yet.

Dame Calla

I absolutely agree.
In my experience questions get replies.
"Sir, may I please have a spanking?"   IS a direct question which would get a yes followed by a spank or a no followed by nothing/ignored with one of those looks.
"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking."  is not a direct question (not unless the entire rules of syntax/grammar have been changed recently). It is not a direct expression. It's a manipulative expression: passive agressive and an intent to engage/change/encroach upon a dominant's experience. Likely (where I come from) to get my face smacked, get me spit on or caned probably at some random time when I had forgotten saying it but the D hadn't.



Manipulations


_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 7:15:21 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		There is of course a fine line between making a manipulative statement and one made in am old fashion mode of address which I love as more often found from the Victorian/Edwardian periods where the use of English was more of a social art form. In some cases the only differentiation is either the manner in which it is delivered or the intent. Much I dare say is going to depend on the recipient and what he or she considers the norm. I do believe there is both a time and a place for the more elegant and flowery mode of speech and the more direct plain form of addressing the matter. If I desire to impart some command, wish, desire or simply information in which there can be no misinterpretation or other error, perhaps a plain short version giving all the pertinent information is best. To really enjoy a good conversation, I have found it more effective and pleasurable to fit the mode of address to the situation and those involved. Often enough, I prefer and ask for the abridged version first to give me the bare facts on which In can brood upon and then enjoy the more lengthy detailed version  

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Prinsexx)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Asking vs Manipulating Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109