quote:

ORIGINAL: RebornMaster

This idea has come up in another thread so I thought I'd pose it here to see what your opinions are.

what is the difference, if any, between a sub/slave Asking for something vs trying to Manipulate the situation? I'm not trying to be a smart ass...my slave and I have discussed it and have had some interesting discussions.

there are rules and most of us have slow and/or safe words. Is using that slow/safe word not manipulating the session, or asking for a time out which is as said, manipulation? but then, if a sub/slave asks in a certain way for something which is ok to the Master is she then still trying to manipulate? why is it "just" asking?

or am I getting too much in to semantics? Is it if s/he asks for something against the rules that it's manipulation? but doenst the slow/safe word slow down or stop whatever is going on which is breaking rules?

damn...not sure how to ask this...I hope you all get the point. What is, in your opinion, the difference between Manipulation and Asking for something? I'd love to hear your opinions on it :)

quote:


I'm curious to know what it is in these scenarios that your sub is asking for? A sip of water? An orgasm? That she be untied so she can go watch Desperate Housewives? The cessation of pain? Or do you mean her asking for everything and anything? If I was a dominant my response to her asking would vary a lot depending upon what she was asking for (and of course, when she chose to ask for it). Does your response vary?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves

Manipulating is when you use devious means to trick or force a person into giving you what you want, assuming they would not have do so otherwise. Not a good tactic for a sub.

Hope this helps.

quote:

isnt asking in itself manipulation? basically?

quote:

I'm learning to become a more effective and consistent Master so I know it's my fault I "give in" but then isnt "giving in" ok sometimes? Thats not a loss of control right? Well, that's another subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

> Making my wishes known = asking whether they can be fulfilled

> Asking what another will do is more direct than stating my own feeling

> Free to say anything (in the form of a question)

> Asking is more transparent than stating

> Direct is passive, and contingent is active


The problem is that too many people have been taught from childhood that it is wrong to own their feelings, and directly express them. Instead, they are taught to hide their feelings couched in the safety of a question, for fear of the unknown response.
"I want a candy."
"SHUT UP, and ask (plea) nicely!"
"Mother, may I please have a little tiny bit of candy."
"You do not want any candy because it will spoil your appetite for dinner."
In this example, both the direct expression and the feeling itself are invalidated and denied. A child will internalize this, and learn a different basis for expression and repression which are carried into adulthood.

In the context of this thread, asking a question is the passive way to evade taking responsibility for how one feels. Often, the construct is so deeply indoctrinated that it is accepted as a normal way of being, and no alternative is apparent. Or, direct (active) expression of feeling has been convoluted into "passive" aggression.

"May I please have...," is not a question of whether you would be pleased. It is a question of whether satisfying the request would be within the pleasure of the giver. Yet, that has been taught to be the "direct" way of fulfilling the underlying feeling of desire or need.

If one goes into a store, and sees the open tub of chocolate ice cream, which is the direct and active expression?
"I want a chocolate ice cream cone." -- "Yes, ma'am."
"Will you please serve me a chocolate ice cream cone?" -- "No, Ma'am. Vanilla is a much better flavor. Everybody else today bought vanilla. Why would you want chocolate?"
The direct answer is again the first statement, which owns the feeling or preference. However, a person will too often engage in passivity by trying to justify why they actually want chocolate, since they are unable to directly express their feeling.

Incessant questioning is interrogation. It is also a form of topping from the bottom. While it is passive in the first order, it demands attention in the second order.

This paradox is rationally and pragmatically borne out in the above replies. Asking for something is not a direct statement that something is wished for. It is a request that an implicit (indirect) wish be considered and fulfilled. It is a game of Jeopardy. What at first seem to be external egg shells, are actually the inner egg shells of unacceptance and invalidity, which inhibit a person from honestly and transparently expressing their deeper feeling.

It is easy to share a naked body. It is much more difficult to share a naked heart.

Just try "I speak" for a day. The difficulty is your own inability to be transparent and honest about how you really and truly feel.

Most American's fail to fully comprehend the trauma which many people in other cultures and societies of the world have endured at the hands of oppressors, dictators, and tyrants. In such environments, an active statement can literally get you killed. Thus, people learn to improve their chances of survival by communicating as passively and non-responsibly as possible, by indirectly expressing their feeling in the form of an innocent little question. It is the asker who fears the askee.

"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking."
That is constructed to illustrate the point -- "I would love a spanking."
A partner in control already knows that he/she has the power to respond with:
direct communication by the physical act of a spank; or,
"not right now." ("I hear your feeling, and would love to share the experience with you later.")

The bottom line is that indirect communication in the form of a question (or worse--"you speak") perpetuates conflict, whether internal or external.

quote:

 Subs, by their nature, are needy. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples

Not all submissives are manipulative and passive aggressive.

quote:

Subs, by their nature, are needy.

quote:

There is nothing wrong with seeking attention when you need attention. That's mentally and emotionally healthy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples

quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

> Making my wishes known = asking whether they can be fulfilled

> Asking what another will do is more direct than stating my own feeling

> Free to say anything (in the form of a question)

> Asking is more transparent than stating

> Direct is passive, and contingent is active


The problem is that too many people have been taught from childhood that it is wrong to own their feelings, and directly express them. Instead, they are taught to hide their feelings couched in the safety of a question, for fear of the unknown response.
"I want a candy."
"SHUT UP, and ask (plea) nicely!"
"Mother, may I please have a little tiny bit of candy."
"You do not want any candy because it will spoil your appetite for dinner."
In this example, both the direct expression and the feeling itself are invalidated and denied. A child will internalize this, and learn a different basis for expression and repression which are carried into adulthood.

In the context of this thread, asking a question is the passive way to evade taking responsibility for how one feels. Often, the construct is so deeply indoctrinated that it is accepted as a normal way of being, and no alternative is apparent. Or, direct (active) expression of feeling has been convoluted into "passive" aggression.

"May I please have...," is not a question of whether you would be pleased. It is a question of whether satisfying the request would be within the pleasure of the giver. Yet, that has been taught to be the "direct" way of fulfilling the underlying feeling of desire or need.

If one goes into a store, and sees the open tub of chocolate ice cream, which is the direct and active expression?
"I want a chocolate ice cream cone." -- "Yes, ma'am."
"Will you please serve me a chocolate ice cream cone?" -- "No, Ma'am. Vanilla is a much better flavor. Everybody else today bought vanilla. Why would you want chocolate?"
The direct answer is again the first statement, which owns the feeling or preference. However, a person will too often engage in passivity by trying to justify why they actually want chocolate, since they are unable to directly express their feeling.

Incessant questioning is interrogation. It is also a form of topping from the bottom. While it is passive in the first order, it demands attention in the second order.

This paradox is rationally and pragmatically borne out in the above replies. Asking for something is not a direct statement that something is wished for. It is a request that an implicit (indirect) wish be considered and fulfilled. It is a game of Jeopardy. What at first seem to be external egg shells, are actually the inner egg shells of unacceptance and invalidity, which inhibit a person from honestly and transparently expressing their deeper feeling.

It is easy to share a naked body. It is much more difficult to share a naked heart.

Just try "I speak" for a day. The difficulty is your own inability to be transparent and honest about how you really and truly feel.

Most American's fail to fully comprehend the trauma which many people in other cultures and societies of the world have endured at the hands of oppressors, dictators, and tyrants. In such environments, an active statement can literally get you killed. Thus, people learn to improve their chances of survival by communicating as passively and non-responsibly as possible, by indirectly expressing their feeling in the form of an innocent little question. It is the asker who fears the askee.

"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking."
That is constructed to illustrate the point -- "I would love a spanking."
A partner in control already knows that he/she has the power to respond with:
direct communication by the physical act of a spank; or,
"not right now." ("I hear your feeling, and would love to share the experience with you later.")

The bottom line is that indirect communication in the form of a question (or worse--"you speak") perpetuates conflict, whether internal or external.

Incessant questioning is interrogation. It is also a form of topping from the bottom. While it is passive in the first order, it demands attention in the second order.

Incessant question is only interrogation if the dominant allows it to be. If sub asks for a spanking two times and gets a no, the third time she asks, you can always command her to stop. Use your stern voice -- that would surely get *my* attention.

That you presume asking a question is topping from the bottom disturbs me. That someone asks a question in no way obligates the asked to answer.

I fail to see how "Sir, please may I have a spanking?" is somehow less direct than your construct of "Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking."
They both say -- "I would love a spanking."

To view all asking as topping from the bottom is ludicrous to me.

As a dominant, I am *very* aware that its imperative to first listen to all your sub's communications with the goal of not just hearing the words but of understanding the feeling and intent. And second, to understand that submissive well enough so you can be *correct*  in defining those feelings and that intent.

Not all submissives are manipulative and passive aggressive.

Although I can see how "I would love a spanking" is less attention seeking than, "Sir may I have a spanking?" (let's not get into whether it's passive or indirect, I suspect you and I are not going to agree on that) subs, by their very nature, demand a certain amount of attention. They are not lil toys you keep in a box up on the shelf and bring out whenever you're feeling all domly. (although some doms treat them that way).

Subs, by their nature, are needy. A good reason to find a submissive you are very compatible with is that you can't *really* curtail what all they will be needy about. You can implement certain rules that will be obeyed (don't bother me the first 15 minutes when I get home from work, I need to de-stress), but you can't ignore feelings, at least not for long.

In my again very strong opinion, you would be much better served by spending less time looking for negative intent (a good submissive *wants* to be pleasing and obedient) and more time defining and responding to the feelings behind the intent.

There is nothing wrong with seeking attention when you need attention. That's mentally and emotionally healthy.

quote:

Subs, by their nature, are needy. A good reason to find a submissive you are very compatible with is that you can't *really* curtail what all they will be needy about. You can implement certain rules that will be obeyed (don't bother me the first 15 minutes when I get home from work, I need to de-stress), but you can't ignore feelings, at least not for long.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
"May I please have...," is not a question of whether you would be pleased. It is a question of whether satisfying the request would be within the pleasure of the giver. Yet, that has been taught to be the "direct" way of fulfilling the underlying feeling of desire or need.

If one goes into a store, and sees the open tub of chocolate ice cream, which is the direct and active expression?
"I want a chocolate ice cream cone." -- "Yes, ma'am."
"Will you please serve me a chocolate ice cream cone?" -- "No, Ma'am. Vanilla is a much better flavor. Everybody else today bought vanilla. Why would you want chocolate?"
The direct answer is again the first statement, which owns the feeling or preference. However, a person will too often engage in passivity by trying to justify why they actually want chocolate, since they are unable to directly express their feeling.