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FirmhandKY -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (8/31/2009 3:05:45 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Arpig
quote:
Why let the posters who "tossed the accusations" back and forth get away with it? Engage them deeper. I have, I even started a thread about real socialists and got dictionary definitions thrown at me to prove Obama was one....nobody who understood what socialism really is bothered to participate...there was no point...they knew he isn't a socialist.
Asa rule when you point out to the NCFS (like my new acronym?...it will make this thread easier to do[:D]) tossers where they are wrong,they either ignore you or redefine the terms their own way to make it fit. Anybody who throws out Nazi/Hitler references without having read at the very least Bullock's book clearly hasn't the slightest idea of what a Nazi is, or what Hitler believed. Similarly with the term fascist....fascism grew out of socialism, fascism is not so much an issue of left or right as it is a rival of communism for the evolution of socialist thought. Again this fact is overlooked in the rush to label Bush (or Obama,who in fact is slightly closer to fascism than was Bush) one.
There is little point to doing so, and as Apocalypso so rightly pointed out, it gets dull after a while....pointing out the same facts to the same people over and over again. And as far as this thread...well it stopped being a discussion of the use of the terms and became a pissing contest as to who had actually called their own side on using the NCFS name-calling and who didn't....that is why we derailed it, it had already been derailed into the realm of the ridiculous...we just made it funny is all.
Arpig,
Excellent post.
And a good return to serious discussion, even with some lighthearted comments coming out now (from both sides) rather than animosity (much, anyway).
I have to agree that many do not understand the terms. But, really, in our political environment over the last few decades, it really isn't about understanding the terms. It's about discrediting your opponent: it's about not arguing with their points or logic, but in demonizing them individually with ad hominem attacks.
And, while I do not personally wish you to grow tired of having to instruct and correct someone every time they "get it wrong", I do think that we all need to stop people who simply use it for nefarious purposes.
Hell, I'm carrying on that conversation now with NorthernGent in another thread, where he is claiming, in effect, that all conservatives are Nazis. (Oh, so politely, and oh so intellectually).
The use of the terms for a long time were by the radical or "looney" sides of both halves of the political divide.
Unfortunately, historically, many have tried (and been pretty successful) in making a Hitler-right, Stalin-left meme, and that has been used particularly (in my opinion) by more and more mainstream Democrats, so that today even the Speaker of the House calls average Americans who are upset and pissed at their elected officials "Nazis".
It seems like it became especially accepted over the last 8 years or so.
I have said before (although not recently) that the American political arena of discourse has become more and more coarse and cheapened over the last few decades, to the point that absent a seismic shift or event, I can see that the polarization will lead to the everyone's worst nightmare.
I lay a large part of that blame on the left side, which has pretty much now been trained in, and believe that the Alinsky rules for radicals is "the way things need to be done".
Are they totally to blame? Nope.
But as an accepted political tactic, they have given it life, and credence.
Christianity talks about "turning the other cheek", and forgiving our brothers and sisters who have sinned, and I think that is good advice when those brothers and sisters are truly repentant.
I see no repentance on the left for their coarsing of the political discussion, nor for their Alinsky-ist tactics of destroying the messenger rather than engaging in honest debate. I see no indication of them making even the smallest efforts to actually take into account over half of the US population that doesn't live, eat, breath and sleep their particular philosophy ("I won" x 2). I see no real interest in them having an honest discussion ("Every crisis is an opportunity"). All I really see is outrage and distaste that "the little people" dare to disagree, and make that disagreement known.
Is everyone on the left guilty of perfidy, here on the CM forums? Nope.
Are all left-of-center politicians in the US guilty of perfidy? Again, nope.
But the fact is that in my opinion, and in a growing number on the right, that there is no way to reasonably return to kinder, gentler times, and that the grounds for discussion has permanently shifted, and it's not only unlikely that trying to tone down the rhetoric will do us a damn bit of good, but that if we do not adopt some of the left's tactics, then we are nothing more than sheep being lead to the slaughter, baaaaing, and bleating ineffectually.
And I hate that. It's not in my nature to believe that reasonable people can't be reasonable.
But with many of our current Democratic political leaders painting anyone or any organization which doesn't agree with them as the epitome of evil, do you not think that there would be a reaction? Do not liberals understand that when you marginalize a group, you create anger and resentment? That that anger and resentment can only be exacerbated by the rhetoric that they continue to use?
And when the left gets even the slightest taste of their own medicine, they go into hysteria and hyperventilation?
Why should we on the right give a shit what they think? Do they give a shit what we think? Nope.
So, all that being said ... I much prefer to engage in discussions without the animosity, and the use of NCFS terminology. It's inaccurate. It's deadening to the discussion, and it's mean spirited. I do not think it has any place on the CM forums, although it has been a common left-side talking point over the last 8 years at least.
But, in the public arena? I just don't know if I give a shit what the "bushitler" and "all conservatives are nazis" crowds on the left get smacked with. Ask me again in a few months, or a couple of years, and maybe I'll have lightened up a little, but I doubt it. Unless and until several major Democratic politicians publicly apologize and take their own party to task over their own methods of discourse, there is no repentance, and therefore there is no forgiveness in my heart.
Firm
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