RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (Full Version)

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MaamJay -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 1:38:46 AM)

When we ran play parties restricted to a group of people who had been vetted, we had hospital-grade disinfectant, paper towels and bins at prominent places in the play space and it was made clear that people were expected to USE them. There were areas designated for play, others for moving through and others for socialising, and crossing over of activities wasn't encouraged. Even people standing and chatting in the corridors were encouraged to move to a social area. It wasn't that hard to police and made for a good environment. Also, as the people got to know each other in general, the level of play and intensity definitely increased, so it became a whole lot less boring. It's hard to have an intense scene in front of strangers, much easier in front of friends. We didn't have the troll problem since the address wasn't public, any single males there were genuinely there to meet people and weren't a problem. I'd suggest to the OP that they look for a smaller more private venue.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 1:39:21 AM)

My public experiences have ranged from nice, spiffy, well-lighted, fancy-dancy clubs with sanitary dispensers for both hands and equipment -and- non-latex gloves at -every- station (private, paid club in NC) to a dank little wood-floored, poorly-lighted, tiny, crowded playspace in the Montrose in Houston, along with a selection of private home dungeons, etc., and even outdoor dungeons at RenFaire events and ModAb events -- including doing piercing and scarification at outside events, and I've -never- had an issue as long as we used common sense on -our- end when planning and executing our activity.

Typically, I plan on inconvenience when I play publicly. It's just one of the things that goes along with public play. In terms of sanitation, I bring my own sanitary products, whether or not they are provided by the site -- I tend to like to know what my skin and the skin of my property will be coming in contact with, in terms of ingredients/quality/etc., and choose my sanitary equipment accordingly. I also provide my own fire extinguisher, sharps containers, and my own latex-free gloves. Equipment is wiped down before we start, and the requisite period for viral death (usually 5 minutes) goes by before we put bare skin on shared surfaces. I -always use a spray barrier screen and disposable, plastic-backed or wax-backed drop cloth that I provide.

The only reason I'm even that spastic is because my club-play usually includes some variation of blood and/or fire play, and I consider it my responsibility to make sure that I minimize the risk of infection for my bottom, and can assure the owners or tenders of the play-space that I have followed appropriate BBP restrictions to protect -their- business license.

That being said, public clubs are typically like public gyms -- sweaty, richly odorous, hot, and surprisingly poorly ventilated, and full of intense, driven, and occasionally -clueless- people. That has never bothered me, either in a gym or in a public dungeon. Heck, as a paramedic and midwife, I performed intricate medical procedures, started IVs, and delivered babies in the most common, completely unsanitized places--dirt floors, on streets, in the back of cabs (talk about filthy!)... and yet, somehow, managed to be able to create a space where nobody got infections and practices were handled safely.

Beauty (and suitability) are in the eyes of the beholder, but to me, what I do when I am involved in an activity is gritty-- it's messy and intense and vibrant... rich with scents thick enough to taste in the air, and sensations of fluids slick under one's gloves... so I'm comfortable with other people's intensity and sensory presence when I'm in public space.

As far as other peoples' scenes not being interesting -- I figure that other people come to the club for the same reason that I do -- to find someone to play with. I don't scene for other people. If someone wants to watch, and they stay out of my way, that's great -- but they won't find anything interesting in watching me set 40 needles in a bottom's back... from the outside, it's pretty dull to observe. However, for the participants... myself and the bottom... that 50 minute session (plus 5 minutes on either side for cleanup) is -super- intense, which is why we're there. For me, BDSM is -not- a spectator sport, so I don't -expect- it to be interesting to casual observers, nor do I "play" to an audience. I don't really care whether they think my bottom and I are cold fish or whatever... we know what it's doing for us, and that's enough, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Dame Calla




allthatjaz -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 1:47:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

We went to Paddles last night and were not blown away. It's the only public place we've ever gone to so we really don't know how it compares to others.
The first thing that turned us off was the layout. The hallways were narrow and you sometimes literally had to step over someone who was scening in the middle of the hallway...i.e. two dommes were having their boots licked by two sub males who were sprawled out blocking the access to the left side. We watched an hour long flogging and found the two to be unemotional and cold. It was as if they were following a script. In fact just about every scene we watched was void of energy and excitement and emotion. Not even gonna get into all of the single male wankers trolling around. And the biggest issue we had was that there were no sanitary wipes. People would use the dungeon furniture with bare skin and then not wipe it down afterwards. Yuck. Is this how a typical dungeon tends to be? I doubt we'll ever go back there for these reasons. We were surprised because Paddles is supposed to be one of the better clubs.


I like to read reviews on clubs I have not attended.
This review would not put me off because I/We happen to like grungy clubs. Any club is just a venue with punters but in my opinion too many clubs feel main stream with lots of glitz and razzmatazz.
I ran my own club for some time and I have to admit that I was disappointed that it became a huge cabaret. Popular demand meant posh venues, stage shows with elaborate performances to entertain the masses. When my club was on the drawing board it was always intended to be grungy and although it was popular it became my customers dream, not mine


Although I love to do a little voyeurism, I don't expect that other paying customers are there to entertain me. If someone wants to do a long out boring scene with a flogger thats up to them, I just wouldn't watch!









angelikaJ -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 5:00:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Well It's what I always used.

After Doing the Research I will tell you that we are BOTH Wrong about Alcohol. It seems the 99.9 percent stuff is good for cleaning my Blade before Knife work but the Cheap 50 cent Bottle of 70% Isopopyl Alcohol is more effective than the 5 dollar 99.9%.

As for what it kills Rubbing Alcohol will kill MOST Bacteria, In Fact from the other research I just did many different medical professionals will tell you that Alcohol is MORE effective than ANY Product said to be a Sanitizer on the market today. However I have yet to find anyting from the CDC on that as of yet. Apparently the reason Alcohol is used in most medical offices and hospitals around the world is because it is the only stuf PROVEN 100% of the time to kill the same amount of Bacteria regardless of the incubation period. The Handi Wipes that people use now days only work if used right after contamination after that they become nearly worthless.

I stick with my Alcohol but I'll switch out to the 70% after reading the link I put below.

THIS Article was very helpful and taught me MUCH about Sanitzation.  Below is the Exert on Alcohol.

f. ALCOHOLS
Alcohols exert their germicidal activity by denaturing bacterial proteins. In the absence of water, proteins are not readily denatured by alcohol and therefore a 70% solution of isopropyl alcohol is a much more effective sanitizer than the pure (99%) product. Isopropyl alcohol is capable of killing most bacteria within 5 minutes of exposure but is ineffective against spores and has limited virucidal activity. The main disadvantages towards the use of isopropyl alcohol is that it is flammable, and can not be diluted as quats or iodophors can and therefore is relatively expensive to use.

Steel




The fact that it tends not to kill viruses would make it worisome to me.
However, thank you for posting that Steel.




allthatjaz -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 6:13:06 AM)

The problem with a lot of sanitizing solutions is they don't kill things like the Hep virus and can damage the surface they are applied to, especially leather and stainless. I personally hate to see leather on commercial dungeon equipment as its a nightmare to clean and so porous that granny's DNA will still be seeping through the pores 50 years from now!

Envirox, Avistat_D, Habtab Solution, Neutral Quat are all available cleaning products that are known to kill HIV and Hepatitis. All can be diluted into a small spray pump bottle and carried in your bag.




RavenMuse -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 6:33:49 AM)

Don't let your first experience put you off. Try a range of clubs before writting them off as not for you. The first 'club' I experienced resulted in Me walking away from the 'scene' for close to 20 years before being pursuaided to give it another shot. When I did I had quite a different experience, one worth having. I have experienced a range of clubs since, some wonderful and others that would show that first 'bad' experience in a favorable light by comparison.




CougarStud -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 6:37:31 AM)

Unless there is sperm & blood, it's no different than a gym.




allthatjaz -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 6:54:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CougarStud

Unless there is sperm & blood, it's no different than a gym.



But would you chance it in a dimly lit room?




crouchingtigress -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 7:27:14 AM)

It is easy to watch a scene and assume that no energy is being exchanged, yet that is rarely the case. Sometime I scream, sometimes I am laughing, and sometime I am very still and very quiet....depends on so many factors

re cleanliness: I dont rely on clubs to provide my safety (although that is pleasant when they do), I pack calvaside and sani wipes in my play bag at all times...because then I have the option of playing, or getting fucked, anywhere I happen to be, should the desire overtake me. ;)

And lastly, if a place is seedy, such as Paddles and the former Power Exchange, you can use that in your scene to create some hot porn memories, because the important thing is you are there with your partner, and that is all that matters.

I would ask yourself Aileen, what did you want from the experience? Was it to meet new kinksters? Was it to play in public? Was it to watch? All those answers will help you choose a place to go, and then have a better time you are out.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 9:34:38 AM)

I was at Paddles once, I think it was a TES sponsored party?  It was not terribly glamourous, but we enjoyed looking around, the folks were friendly, and all that.  If someone is blocking the path, make em move, or make DM move them! 

I've been to lots of venues, and The Woodshed in Orlando tops my list.  Maybe because I love that cushy carpet... and the good lighting!




DemonKia -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 9:39:45 AM)

The problem, Steel, is that HIV, herpes, papilloma (warts), & the hepatitis family are all viruses, a much tougher micro-organism to kill . . . . . .

What Maria (allthatjazz) said . . . . . .

To which I'd add that what I've learned (so far) is that of the cheap household cleaners the only one with 'weal, twue' germicidal punch is bleach, & that the humble 1-in-10 dilution of bleach should kill most everything one encounters outside of a hospital . . . . & adding a teaspoon of baking soda to a quart of 1-in-10 bleach solution should make it more effective as a 'sterilizing' agent . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

As for what it kills Rubbing Alcohol will kill MOST Bacteria...






lusciouslips19 -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 9:46:32 AM)

I have been to 4 dungeons. And one play space. They all had disinfectant close by and you are required to clean the equipment after use. Yes Hib. I agree. Loved the woodshed. Clean, cushy carpet, very hospitible people.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 10:17:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

The problem, Steel, is that HIV, herpes, papilloma (warts), & the hepatitis family are all viruses, a much tougher micro-organism to kill . . . . . .

What Maria (allthatjazz) said . . . . . .

To which I'd add that what I've learned (so far) is that of the cheap household cleaners the only one with 'weal, twue' germicidal punch is bleach, & that the humble 1-in-10 dilution of bleach should kill most everything one encounters outside of a hospital . . . . & adding a teaspoon of baking soda to a quart of 1-in-10 bleach solution should make it more effective as a 'sterilizing' agent . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

As for what it kills Rubbing Alcohol will kill MOST Bacteria...




We prefer Buckeye Lemon Quat, which is what the hospital that I work at uses for their isolation units for viral and bacterial infectious agents. I get it in bulk (pouch), because my daughter uses it for site-sterilization (bench, chair, counters, etc.,) when she pierces or tats. For spray sterilization, we get Avistat D, which is effective against HIV, HIB, SARS, HPV, H1N1 and most other influenza, and all bacterial contaminants including antibiotic-resistant, necrotizing Staph Aureus (MRSA and VRSA), and Strep B.

Neither of these is effective, and both can be pre-mixed for easy carry. You can even find them online and have them delivered to your door. We use these with Wypall X80 blue wipes -- you can't mistake them for skin wipes, and you can pre-soak the wipes with disinfectant for quick spill cleanup (I use an old baby-wipe container, and put in a layer of wipes, soak them with pre-mixed Lemon Quat, and feed one through the top--pop the top and yank a wipe, and you have instant sanitizing wipes at the level used in ABSL-2 viral research labs. We also pick up sharps containers and latex-free gloves (important if you're going to do top/bottom play with new folks, since it sux to find out that someone has a latex allergy because they develop an anaphylactic reaction in the middle of a scene) and such from our supplier as well.

Yes, you can use chlorine bleach or Lysol or whatever you pick up at the grocery store... though alcohol does not kill viral agents, so it really isn't useful for anything except cleansing skin... but I guess because SR runs a lab and I have EMT and medical facility background, we looked a lot more closely at sanitation products. Now that AB is piercing and tattooing, we're glad we went whole-hog, because it made advising her about good sources for her own sanitation supplies a lot easier. These are easy, effective against most of what is out there, and not overly expensive in the quantities used for play -- so our thought was "why not go with the best option we can swing?"

Dame Calla

PS: Oh... and "spray and wipe" doesn't kill everything on a surface even if you're using lysol or sanitizing wipes. Most sanitizing products have to stay on the surface for at -least- 1 minute to kill any viruses (their shells make them -really- hard to kill)... so just taking a quick swipe before you start won't do much but spread germs around... and sanitizing in your own playspace is just as important as sanitizing in public spaces. You can pass stuff back to yourself (including yeast, mycoplasma, and VRSA/MRSA etc.,) if you don't properly sanitize your own equipment, I prefer to sanitize both before and after -- for me, it just seems good to be cautious... but I'm immune compromised, and admit that I'm a little paranoid, having had to deal with MRSA cellulitis already twice in my adult life -- NOT pleasant!




CougarStud -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 10:22:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
But would you chance it in a dimly lit room?


that sounds fun




CaringandReal -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 11:35:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

We went to Paddles last night and were not blown away. I


When I saw you thread title, my first thought was, "Let me guess. New York?" The Vault was worse, in its day. Floors weren't safe to walk on, even in shoes! ;) The hook-up behavior is fairly universal, whatever the city, in my experience, but maybe a little less aggressive other places. In regards to wankers, some clubs have rules about guys having their dicks out of their pants (precisely because they do not want floors like the Vault's).

The coldness of the scenes is something that varies from venue to venue and city to city, even night to night (a lot depends on who's giving the show) although in the few times I went to Paddles I also noticed that cold air. Fairly alienating, isn't it?

As regards to cleanliness, yes many places are cleaner, but you might not find them in that city.




SteelofUtah -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 11:55:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

The problem, Steel, is that HIV, herpes, papilloma (warts), & the hepatitis family are all viruses, a much tougher micro-organism to kill . . . . . .


Agreed- However my Research says that although not as FAST as Straight Bleach, alcohol WILL STILL KILL Many (No Not all, but then again neither will Bleach) Viruses. All that needs to be done is to wait until the Alcohol completely evaporates away from SOLID Surfaces or within 5 minutes of porus ones. What I was not aware of which I am now is that most Bacteria and Viruses need to be denatured which requires the water in 70% Isopropyl Alcohol. I have also learned that Bleach on it's OWN is very good to Kill Viruses but once Diluted into a 10 part water 1 part Bleach Solution it also loses much of it's effectiveness as it is the Bleach that kills and diluting it to make it safe for people to put on thier skin, where as it may still be effective against Viruses it again becomes less effective in breaking up Colonies of Bacteria.

This is one of many sites that state the use of both Rubbing Alcohol or 10-1 Bleach but this if the cleanest site that specifically mentions HIV/AIDS and Rubbing Alcohol as a Suggested Method to Combat AIDS Infection.
To which I'd add that what I've learned (so far) is that of the cheap household cleaners the only one with 'weal, twue' germicidal punch is bleach, & that the humble 1-in-10 dilution of bleach should kill most everything one encounters outside of a hospital . . . . & adding a teaspoon of baking soda to a quart of 1-in-10 bleach solution should make it more effective as a 'sterilizing' agent . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

As for what it kills Rubbing Alcohol will kill MOST Bacteria...



So the Main Problem that I have been having is that there are very FEW sites dedicated to the actual effectivness of Isopropyl Alcohol and it's effects on Bacteria and Viruses. Finding them usually requires wading through all the Opinion Threads like Wiki-Answers and Yahoo-Questions and you never get a definitive answer. For instance the fact that all of the referenced on the Wikipedia page deal with the chemical makeup but not on the chemical makes up of the Bacteria or Viruses and what they are resistant to.

So I called the CDC (Center for Disease Control) ..... They didn't know either.

So I called The company who manufactures the Alcohol that I use..... They didn't know either.

So I started to Research Backwards, Hepatitis in all Strains A,B, & C is resistant to almost EVERY Antiviral including Bleach, the 10-1 Bleach solution is still being recomended to clean up blood on surfaces but the inability to determin the actual level of Active agents in bleach makes it difficult to effectively measure.

quote:

The current challenge of determining true infectivity limits our ability to evaluate appropriate dilution and exposure times. A 1:10 dilution of domestic bleach is commonly recommended for clean up of blood spills, and this concentration should be adequate to deal with HCV (and HBV) in blood18, although supportive evidence is lacking. However, blood remaining in a syringe poses different challenges than surface blood spills. The risks of transmission from an improperly cleaned and disinfected syringe are much higher than from traces of blood left on an outside surface. Studies have shown that undiluted bleach requires shorter exposure times than diluted bleach to be effective against HIV-1. It may also be more effective in the presence of residual blood in the syringe49. Presumably, the same would be true against HCV.

 
Click here for comeplete article
 
I will openly admit that it would seem that there is a place for the 10-1 Bleach Solution, I just hate the smell of bleach and using the less odorous ones seems to question the amount of effective and active checmical in bleach. The above dealt with Needle Sharing and the issue with Bleach and how well it works.


THIS Article shows that at very least Hepatitis B has been effectivly killed by 70% Isopropyl Alcohol however I do not know the company and if their findings can be considered Accurate or not.

All in all I think the main idea is to just be safe and use what you have available to you. So far EVERYTHING I have read says 70% Isopropyl Alcohol is an Inexpensive way to Kill Most Bacteria and many Virial Diseases that may be left on surfaces and has a 100% effective rate on killing a vast Majority of Bacteria regardless of Colony Size within 5 minutes of application.

Most of what I have read however again not put out my Medical Agencies is that Alcohol is MORE effective then almost every Sanitary Wipe and is better than Alcohol based Hand Sanitizers because the Hand sanitizer prevents the denaturing of the Bacteria and Virus.

Many of the things people are using today have similar to LESS effective fighting ability than Soap and Water which is really scary when you think about it.

I will look deeper into Lysol because Hospitals refuse to use it as a Hospital Purchased supply but I could not find out why just yet.

Steel




Sunnyfey -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 11:59:45 AM)

Wow, Thanks for all the information Steel!




allthatjaz -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 1:07:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia



What Maria (allthatjazz) said . . . . . .

To which I'd add that what I've learned (so far) is that of the cheap household cleaners the only one with 'weal, twue' germicidal punch is bleach, & that the humble 1-in-10 dilution of bleach should kill most everything one encounters outside of a hospital . . . . & adding a teaspoon of baking soda to a quart of 1-in-10 bleach solution should make it more effective as a 'sterilizing' agent . . . . .


Whilst I agree with you that bleach is a tried and tested method of getting rid of one hell of a lot, even when diluted to 1 - 10 water, it has to be the right bleach. Oxygen Bleach is what is used to clean surfaces and Chlorine bleach is used for whitening fabric. Use Chlorine bleach on the padded fabric part of some BDSM eqipment (even in diluted form) and your going to bugger up the fabric pretty quickly.

Edited to add

Great post Steel but we should be aware that IPA is a strong degreaser and as such will remove oils from leather and hydrocarbon based (man made fabrics) can decompose when in contact IPA




Andalusite -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 1:29:41 PM)

I've been to a couple of public dungeons, but I prefer private playparties, when possible. It feels more social and friendly. All of the ones I've been to have had sanitiser and towels, and most people seem to use them both before and after playing - I certainly always have! I like putting a blanket down first if it's the kind of equipment you lie on - not as cold that way, and skin doesn't stick to it. A lot of people play in public when they're just getting to know each other, so it's not surprising that some of the scenes didn't seem to have a lot of chemistry/energy exchange. It's not like it's a performance for your benefit anyway - some people are exhibitionists, some just want a place where they can be noisy without disturbing the neighbors, some feel more comfortable playing publicly before going home with someone/inviting them home, they may want more bondage furniture options, etc. If you're going just to spectate, then stay out of everyone's way, and try not to be intrusive or an energy vampire. Usually, I barely notice if anyone is watching until after the scene is over, since I'm so focused on the person I'm with, but there have been a couple of times when a crowd gathered and was a bit distracting (and no, I wasn't blocking a hallway or otherwise in an inappropriate place).




windchymes -> RE: Eeeew....We Went To A Public Dungeon (8/30/2009 2:28:46 PM)

I was at Paddles once, about 4 years ago, and, since it was my first time in any type of public place like that and I didn't and don't have anything to compare it to, I thought it was okay.  It seemed clean to me, though I don't remember seeing any cleaning supplies or anyone cleaning, but I wasn't really looking for it either.  And what my partner and I did that evening didn't require any cleaning up. (Just some flogging with my hands chained overhead.  Our cuffs.)  The people there that night were friendly and down-to-earth, but not overbearing in any way. 

As far as people blocking the hallways, there are always inconsiderate people anywhere you go :)

It probably depends on whose running it that night, that week, or that year.

Aileen, you should go check out Caligula's Temple down in Atlantic City and report in.  I was always curious what it was like, but never went.




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