RE: Real astro-turfing?

RE: Real astro-turfing? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:47:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: So, you have some reasonable proof that all the earlier anti-health care reform protesters were paid agitators? ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY If you're going to try to put words in my mouth, Firm, at least warn me so I can spit out my gum. I never said ALL of the anti-health care protesters were paid agitators. I never said even most of them were. In fact, I never dealt with the idea of percentages. I DID say that the idea of a lobby paying for protesters to advance it's cause was a far different thing than providing logistical support for actual protesters with like minds. Well, my apologies if you think I was trying to trick you with the "all". Although that is pretty much how all of them were portrayed by the media, and Democratic politicians. So, I'd ask, do you have any reasonable evidence that any of the anti-health care protestors were actually paid by anyone to show up at any of the earlier townhall meetings? Or were even provided "logistical support" by anyone on the right? Because, from where I sit, providing "logistical support" is funding, as it's a fungible item. Frim At this point, Firm, both sides are doing it... regardless if its called astroturfing or not.

tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:50:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leiren quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales I personally do not accept factcheck because of what they say. I accept them because they cite their sources, they give you verifiable information and they deal with facts on both side of the equation. But I wait with bated breath to hear what you think is a better source. You're just another example of brainwashed Obama lies. You can't accept the fact that Bill Ayers and Barrack Obama have both sat on the board of 'factcheck'. Do your own research if you want to find unbiased opinions. I could link you up with several Ron Paul sites, even Lew Rockwell or antiwar.com. Ultimately, it's up to you, not me to research the so called 'facts' before you post them. Your facts on 'factcheck' just don't wash. And to answer any further questions you might want to confront me with, I'm bored. As I said, do your own research instead of parroting nonsense. [:D] Oddly enough, when the mass email came out about all those pages in the health care bill, including page numbers, i went through each and every one. Posted many to the boards here. Again, oddly enough, when i went to factcheck.org, they had the exact same results. I did my homework. I suggest you do the same instead of allowing others to think for you.

Leiren -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:00:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Excuse me. I find it a bit amusing that you use a yahoo answers site to refute a political site. I shouldnt have thought better, i suppose If you don't like yahoo, maybe you like this bit of information better: Obama and Ayers and Factcheck all have ties to the Annenburg Foundation. Or you can just keep grasping to prove me wrong. [:D]

tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:09:23 PM)
The link is a year old, speaks of a Birth Certificate that is no longer in question... at least in rational peoples minds. And i am not debating his affiliation with the Foundation. His leading the Chicago Chapter of this foundation... and maybe im reaching here... would in my mind not have much to do with the site. however, teh site has proven Obama wrong many times... which leads me to believe their credibility. LOL.. they sure do use visa a vis alot

FirmhandKY -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:15:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl At this point, Firm, both sides are doing it... regardless if its called astroturfing or not. I dunno, tazzy. While there may be some reasonable proof that some on the right are now doing it, it's been the left that has historically been "the best" at that type of organization. When the entire "anti-health care reforms" started, my estimation was that it was almost purely "grassroots", with no logistical or funding support from any organized institution on the right. I think that while it is easy to say "they are both doing it!", it kinda discounts the fact that one side has done it more, and much longer than the other. Saying "they are both equally guilty!" is therefore giving a pass to the side that really embraces and uses the technique as a matter of course. Firm

Lucylastic -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:17:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leire You're just another example of brainwashed Obama lies. You can't accept the fact that Bill Ayers and Barrack Obama have both sat on the board of 'factcheck'. Do your own research if you want to find unbiased opinions. I could link you up with several Ron Paul sites, even Lew Rockwell or antiwar.com. Ultimately, it's up to you, not me to research the so called 'facts' before you post them. Your facts on 'factcheck' just don't wash. And to answer any further questions you might want to confront me with, I'm bored. As I said, do your own research instead of parroting nonsense. [:D] Arent you the same chick that said that Obama was a baby killer? Even if you arent, you have about as much credibility as she did

Lucylastic -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:19:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY And this addresses my question in the OP, how, exactly? Firm I just thought I could throw something up from another biased site... you dance around so prettily with what is and isnt relevant or acceptable to you... so is my subject astro turfing, or community organising you are so fond of turn about being fair play, or am I hijacking your thread? Lucy

tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:22:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl At this point, Firm, both sides are doing it... regardless if its called astroturfing or not. I dunno, tazzy. While there may be some reasonable proof that some on the right are now doing it, it's been the left that has historically been "the best" at that type of organization. When the entire "anti-health care reforms" started, my estimation was that it was almost purely "grassroots", with no logistical or funding support from any organized institution on the right. I think that while it is easy to say "they are both doing it!", it kinda discounts the fact that one side has done it more, and much longer than the other. Saying "they are both equally guilty!" is therefore giving a pass to the side that really embraces and uses the technique as a matter of course. Firm I am neither staunchly left or right. What i am is intelligent and see what the future may hold and how both sides seem to be battling against the things they themselves want, simply because its politics as usual. If this continues much longer, an independent party will have much ground to work with.

kittinSol -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:25:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl If this continues much longer, an independent party will have much ground to work with. As long as this new third party is a truly middle of center party, and not one that parrotts crazy libertarian ideals...

FirmhandKY -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:27:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY And this addresses my question in the OP, how, exactly? Firm I just thought I could throw something up from another biased site... you dance around so prettily with what is and isnt relevant or acceptable to you... so is my subject astro turfing, or community organising you are so fond of turn about being fair play, or am I hijacking your thread? Lucy Well, since you are trying so hard not to be snide ... I guess my response to you is that if the Rep who held the townhall loaded it with his supporters, then he's due the same condemnation that I give all the other Reps or Congresscritters who have done the same thing. Which has been several. Now, you want to address the real question I posed? Does loading up your supporters in buses, providing them signs and talking points and transporting them to adjacent cities so that they can be seen by the media, consititute "astro-turfing" or not? And what do you think about lying and tricking everyone who showed up "naturally" to protest the health care bills into signing a statement of support for the very bills that they are there to protest? Firm

tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:30:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl If this continues much longer, an independent party will have much ground to work with. As long as this new third party is a truly middle of center party, and not one that parrotts crazy libertarian ideals... Even among them, they cannot seem to agree on what they stand for.

tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:32:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY And this addresses my question in the OP, how, exactly? Firm I just thought I could throw something up from another biased site... you dance around so prettily with what is and isnt relevant or acceptable to you... so is my subject astro turfing, or community organising you are so fond of turn about being fair play, or am I hijacking your thread? Lucy Well, since you are trying so hard not to be snide ... I guess my response to you is that if the Rep who held the townhall loaded it with his supporters, then he's due the same condemnation that I give all the other Reps or Congresscritters who have done the same thing. Which has been several. Now, you want to address the real question I posed? Does loading up your supporters in buses, providing them signs and talking points and transporting them to adjacent cities so that they can be seen by the media, consititute "astro-turfing" or not? And what do you think about lying and tricking everyone who showed up "naturally" to protest the health care bills into signing a statement of support for the very bills that they are there to protest? Firm That last is the part that i have problems with Firm. I find it truly hard to believe anyone would stoop that low, then brag about it, not knowing if any media would be there to report it and how the outcome would be viewed. Perhaps if you could find some substantiating article?

tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 6:41:31 PM)
Firm, btw, who was the photojournalist? Most are eager to take credit for their work, yet, try as i might, i cannot find his or her name. Can you supply it please?

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 7:08:24 PM)
quote: Do your own research if you want to find unbiased opinions. I could link you up with several Ron Paul sites, even Lew Rockwell or antiwar.com. Ultimately, it's up to you, not me to research the so called 'facts' before you post them. Your facts on 'factcheck' just don't wash.ORIGINAL: Leiren So basically, you say that you don't like factcheck because Ayers and Obama worked with them, but a site devoted to or sponsored by Ron Paul, a politician with his own agenda, is fair and unbiased. Isn't it wonderful that the political activists you agree with are such paragons of truth while anyone else's are just liars who are to be discounted. You're right...this is getting boring.

rightwinghippie -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 7:15:35 PM)
Wow, I agree with Spinner, Lew Rockwell and antiwar.com are fruitbat sites

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 7:21:56 PM)
quote: Wow, I agree with Spinner, Lew Rockwell and antiwar.com are fruitbat sites ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie Wow, I agree with Spinner, Lew Rockwell and antiwar.com are fruitbat sites For someone who protests so loudly about being misrepresented, RWH, you manage to do more than your share. I didn't say that these sites had no value (unlike the site that started this all). I said that these sites are, as factcheck.org, run by people with some kind of personal agenda. Now some put that agenda aside and go for an attempt at the facts. Others twist the facts to suit the agenda. To say that a site is by it's nature not worth reading or believing because of the fact that they were either started or managed for a time by politically active people. What I was questioning was the "Those who agree with me tell the truth. Those who disagree with me lie." So tell me, RWH...did you miss that that was my point or did you just choose to ignore it?

FirmhandKY -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 7:47:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales For someone who protests so loudly about being misrepresented, RWH, you manage to do more than your share. I didn't say that these sites had no value (unlike the site that started this all). So, tell me ... why you think these sites have "no value"? You think all the photos were photoshopped? You think all the commentary is false? Or is it that you just don't want to look at the facts, only the fact that they do not support the same agenda that you do? Firm

tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 7:51:08 PM)
Its hard to accept any fact from a person who wont provide their name, Firm.

rightwinghippie -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 8:16:52 PM)
Tazzy, that goes for all those anonamous sources in the NYTimes also?

Arpig -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 8:26:30 PM)
quote: Here, we have a situation, and I wish to know if it qualifies as "astroturfing" by the people on CM who supported the earlier Democratic claims. Assuming the article is correct, then no this is not astroturfing, this is fraud.They collected names and signatures under false pretences ,it is fraud plain and simple. Doesn't matter who did it,the result is still the same.

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