RE: TPE

RE: TPE (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 6:43:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen1968 I'm evolving into a tpe and there are limits. They are both mutually agreed upon. No one touches me except for him. Ever. The other is that my kids and their needs trump everything. Other than that he has complete control of all aspects of my life. What ever he tells me to do I do to the best of my ability. Doesn't mean I'll always be successful, but I'll try like hell. He's rational and realistic and knows that too. I love Aileen's answer because it hits the following points. 1. She never entered TPE. She entered into a relationship which is becoming TPE. It makes sense that TPE not be how a relationship begins. 2. She describes how he understands her needs and her limitations. She's moving towards TPE because she trusts her Master to not abuse the power she's giving up to him. It's the man she's yielding to, not the relationship. To answer your question, Acer, if she has limits, she's going to get asked to explain. If they're due to medical conditions (and in my mind something that would recall trauma would fall into that), they'll be accepted with no question. If it's due to fear, I may decide to push those limits if the activity is important to me. If it's due to her not wanting to give something to me, I'll think long and hard about whether she's really a submissive.

porcelaine -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 9:40:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 A Master desires a sub/slave for a TPE, A slave/sub presents themselves and says they wish to be considered, but they have ten hard limits. Can they be considered, why or why not? For the sake of the discussion, total means absolute. this is a hypothetical situation, I am not seeking or involved in this type of relationship theoretically that is the master's decision. an argument can be made that he knowingly accepted her going in with those things and if he offered no dispute and elected to do so later it could be considered a breach, especially if both agreed that they would remain. but theories are lovely things that don't take in the fallacies of human beings and the fact we often change. i think you've been given an array of answers. i believe a few touched on how i feel. personally i don't have these sort of relationships, i believe there are limitations with the tpe concept and total is interpreted differently. it is one of the reasons i have a greater affinity for internal enslavement instead. there are similarities between the two but marked differences. so i'll respond from a woman's viewpoint and be perfectly honest with you. there are limits and then there things i'd rather not do. sometimes the two are listed under the same label. whether i'm willing to bend is largely dependent on the person. which isn't to say i won't go there, but maybe i just won't go there for you. we're still dealing with the human element and no two relationships are ever the same. i'm sure you can point to your own experiences and note varying degrees of behavior with different partners. some people merely inspire a deeper level of submission than others will. it does not take away the fact that i'm a slave, but the definition of what that entails is crafted by him. if he elects not to push and we agree on everything, in my mind it isn't a total degree of submission. one of the hallmarks of slavery is the willingness to set aside our wants in deference to theirs. there's also the fact that sacrifice implies we're giving up something that may cause discomfort. having a partner who's limits match mine doesn't require very much unease on my part. where some may need this in their relations. i do not. i welcome the difference and invite the struggle. rather than seek things that i can maintain, i'm continually looking for what i can shed. so to answer your question, would i consider it tpe? no i wouldn't. but my opinion is moot because the framework and definitions are uniquely related to them. what i might perceive as simple may be in practice very complex for them. it is difficult when viewing these things on the outside and not having a gander inside their heads to ascertain if meeting in the middle required some flexibility and compromise on either end. porcelaine

leadership527 -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 9:57:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 A Master desires a sub/slave for a TPE, A slave/sub presents themselves and says they wish to be considered, but they have ten hard limits. Can they be considered, why or why not? For the sake of the discussion, total means absolute. this is a hypothetical situation, I am not seeking or involved in this type of relationship By me? No. While I'm too literal to ever believe in the absolute "TOTAL POWER EXCHANGE", what I do think is that there is a mindset involved. I think of Carol & as "TPE" because we are both more focused on moving those boundaries than protecting them. Anyone who came to me out of the gate with a laundry list of boundaries would be demonstrating a reverse mindset and so incompatible with me. That being said, the whole situation is inconceivable to me. At the beginning of a relationship, I do not have enough knowledge to know if I'd even want to be responsible for some other person 100%. To me, that's getting about 6000 steps ahead of the actuality. I'd be inclinded to start D/s and then depending on how things go, we'll see if M/s works or not.

Malkinius -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 12:15:27 PM)
{fast reply} Greetings all.... Why am I reading some of the posts here and the thought that keeps running through my mind is that for some of these people, TPE means Toilet Paper Exchange and some bits that are being exchanged are used? It is an odd thought...but it is there. <wry grin> Lets go back to the basics. If there are limits from the slave side, there is no slavery. There is only a sub with a title. We are not talking about physical or knowledge limitations. My slave can not perform brain surgery because she has not been trained as a neurosurgeon. OK...maybe she could but she really really shouldn't. I might trust my sister-in-law to do it but only because she is an MD and trained as a surgeon even though neurosurgery is not her speciality. She at least has several clues and most of the training needed. You do have the question of Master shopping for someone with similar things they don't want to do. I see nothing wrong with this but what happens if the Master changes their minds and now wants to do them? The simple answer is the slave does them, the slave is punished and may still be forced to do them or the person stops being a slave. Sorry folks, but those are the only choices when it comes to TPE/TPT. Anything else is at best slavery light. One comment to a previous post. No. Not all Doms or Masters are trustworthy or telling you the truth. Some lie about just about everything including the idea that they are really dominant. The same can be said for subs and slaves. Trust is absolutely required for some things we do, especially complete surrender. Be well.... Malkinius

porcelaine -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 12:32:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius I see nothing wrong with this but what happens if the Master changes their minds and now wants to do them? The simple answer is the slave does them, the slave is punished and may still be forced to do them or the person stops being a slave. Sorry folks, but those are the only choices when it comes to TPE/TPT. Anything else is at best slavery light. bingo and change does happen all the time. it is impossible to predict what might occur. i often see this happening when the master wants to bring in another slave and begin having a polygamous relationship. i'm on the fence as to whether i sincerely believe the desire came about or if it was always there and the other party was silent. but i try to give people the benefit of doubt. the aftermath is a clusterfuck at best and a flurry of emotions ranging from anger and anguish to outright frustration. though admittedly most who have undergone this and been in involved in tpe oriented relationships that i've spoken to have elected to adhere to their owner's wishes and submit. they admit the struggles and all the challenges that go along with changes of this nature, and reinforce time and time again what they gave up to him when they became enslaved. porcelaine

aldompdx -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 2:12:01 PM)
Total, absolute, 100% surrender or "exchange" of power is death. The end result of such a fantasy serves the paraphilia of necrophilia or pathological violence and abuse. A corpse is the total objectification of another person. (See related thread on communication, and respondent's opposition to direct expression of feeling). Work backwards from that, and you may be able to distinguish the difference between fantasy and pragmatic reality. In real BDSM (SSC, RACK, SSICK), one delegates authority to exercise power. They can never transfer their personal power to another, because the choice to surrender is ongoing and is made from the personal power of self will and free choice. What would make it "unreal?" The absence of informed consent, under which conduct is unlawful. Presumably, this site is not about supporting a criminal community. Thus, everybody has limits. By definition, all limits are "hard." A supposed "soft" limit is a preference, not a limit.

Acer49 -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 2:31:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Reality already dictates that being human we inherit far more than 10 limits. In line with reality, if I tell my slave to "fly" she will not be able to whether there are negotiated limits or not. However, a good slave once said, "with a running start, I can give you 2 seconds of flight". There are no limits in TPE. Anything otherwise is semantic word games. As Master I am in control as if I own my slave in the same way I own any property. My car does not negotiate limits with me when I ask it to turn left or stop, neither should my slave. My car has real life limitations like my slave. If I abuse it or push it past its' limits, it will break. However, I am smart and responsible enough not to abuse my property, living or otherwise. My car can't fly for more than a few seconds either by the way. If "limits" are a concern to the point you feel you must mention or negotiate for them you are either not suited for TPE or poorly paired with someone you don't trust. Either way, "limits" should be a clue to both parties that something is amiss. Well your opinion is quite clear, but is your opinion the norm or the exception? That is a most valid question and I have been studying the answer since 1971. I have watched many meanings change or get lost over time. I suggest you verify the current published definition of terms to see if mine is in accord with the norm. Total Power Exchange - wiki I have had the great pleasure of participating in public discussions with leaders in our community and been exposed to a wide scope of perspectives on TPE, M/s, ownership, authority, internal enslavement and the oxy moron of consensual slavery. As far as TPE goes, the answer lies in the very definition of the words describing the relationship style. No matter how ugly or politically incorrect, there is one single word that describes it fully. I will admit that TPE is “totalitarianism” if you guys will. “Totalitarian rule recognizes no limits to its authority . . . Totalitarianism is generally characterized by the coincidence of authoritarianism and ideology. . .” - wiki Total Power Exchange just wouldn’t be totalitarian if it recognized limits to its authority imposed by those it is supposed to have total authority over. You just can’t have “negotiated limits” or “hard limits” and still have a TPE. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If the authority figure in a TPE chooses not to require murder, rape, turd eating or anything else, whether it would or would not harm his property, it is at their voluntary discretion not the demands of the subordinate. Whether the authority’s motive be mercy, love, intellect or greed because they don’t want to damage their property so they can continue to use it is irrelevant. The point is that it is their voluntary choice, not a limit imposed by the subordinate. Here in CollarMeLand, definitions and labels are often unreasonably challenged by infantile logic and semantic gymnastics. I am sure that someone will claim TPE “means whatever the people in the relationship want it to mean”. They can just kiss my ass. http://www.collarchat.com/m_2373559/mpage_1/tm.htm Let me rephrase, do you believe your definition is shared by the majority or minority of the Dominants on this board?

Acer49 -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 2:48:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius {fast reply} Greetings all.... Why am I reading some of the posts here and the thought that keeps running through my mind is that for some of these people, TPE means Toilet Paper Exchange and some bits that are being exchanged are used? It is an odd thought...but it is there. <wry grin> Lets go back to the basics. If there are limits from the slave side, there is no slavery. There is only a sub with a title. We are not talking about physical or knowledge limitations. My slave can not perform brain surgery because she has not been trained as a neurosurgeon. OK...maybe she could but she really really shouldn't. I might trust my sister-in-law to do it but only because she is an MD and trained as a surgeon even though neurosurgery is not her speciality. She at least has several clues and most of the training needed. You do have the question of Master shopping for someone with similar things they don't want to do. I see nothing wrong with this but what happens if the Master changes their minds and now wants to do them? The simple answer is the slave does them, the slave is punished and may still be forced to do them or the person stops being a slave. Sorry folks, but those are the only choices when it comes to TPE/TPT. Anything else is at best slavery light. One comment to a previous post. No. Not all Doms or Masters are trustworthy or telling you the truth. Some lie about just about everything including the idea that they are really dominant. The same can be said for subs and slaves. Trust is absolutely required for some things we do, especially complete surrender. Be well.... Malkinius Thank you for your opinion

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 3:18:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 A Master desires a sub/slave for a TPE, A slave/sub presents themselves and says they wish to be considered, but they have ten hard limits. Can they be considered, why or why not? For the sake of the discussion, total means absolute. this is a hypothetical situation, I am not seeking or involved in this type of relationship See, this is JMO, but I don't think it is reasonable to -start out- expecting a comprehensive-authority or TPE-type relationship. Yielding up absolutely -everything- within one's capacity to another person really takes a great deal of, dare I say, "faith". That takes time to develop. Expecting someone to come into our lives and give up everything that they are, want, and will be, when they don't even really -know- us... well... I wouldn't find it unusual to have someone have some things that they wanted to hold on to until they were sure about what they were getting into. The question you have to ask yourself is "are these hard limits things that I would -miss- if they were not part of the relationship?" If the answer is -yes-, then I would absolutely let go of this person... if not, then give it a try if you're so inclined -- with the idea that somewhere down the road, once trust has been established, the option might present itself for TPE/comprehensive authority, since both of you are at least inclined in that direction now. Dame Calla

ResidentSadist -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 3:51:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Reality already dictates that being human we inherit far more than 10 limits. In line with reality, if I tell my slave to "fly" she will not be able to whether there are negotiated limits or not. … There are no limits in TPE. Anything otherwise is semantic word games. . . Well your opinion is quite clear, but is your opinion the norm or the exception? I suggest you verify the current published definition of terms to see if mine is in accord with the norm. Total Power Exchange - wiki …I will admit that TPE is “totalitarianism” if you guys will. …Total Power Exchange just wouldn’t be totalitarian if it recognized limits to its authority imposed by those it is supposed to have total authority over. You just can’t have “negotiated limits” or “hard limits” and still have a TPE. … Here in CollarMeLand, definitions and labels are often unreasonably challenged by infantile logic and semantic gymnastics. I am sure that someone will claim TPE “means whatever the people in the relationship want it to mean”. Let me rephrase, do you believe your definition is shared by the majority or minority of the Dominants on this board? Please forgive my replying to your question with a qualifying question instead of an answer. I just wanted to know which can of worms you wanted me to open. When you say “dominants on this board”, are you referring to the self proclaimed dominants that define their role positions with the Anti Label Coalition's secret invisible CollarMeLand dictionary full of meaningless, indefinable and variable meanings? For example, the dominants that don’t know the difference between TPE and D/s or how to define the difference between a slave and a submissive. Or, do you refer to the Dominants that would also be considered as such by people in the outside world, living by definitions that are easily discernable? For example, you could actually give an encyclopedia or dictionary link to define the basic parameters of their relationship role.

Falkenstein -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 3:53:14 PM)
Can't we just agree that there are different TPEs: PTPE (Pure TPE), TPESM (TPE Single Malt) TPEAOC (TPE Appellation d'Origine Controlée) , ATPE (Almost TPE) or TPEMOL, (TPE more or less), TPEKO (TPE Kind of)? I see these discussions very often on the internet. Usually in a purist vs. approximativist battle order. I do not wish to belittle anybody's concern, but I miserably fail to understand why civilisation as we know it will end if a couple says it is involved in TPE, while in reality it is not entirely true because the slave, sorry the submissive (or maybe just the girlfriend-with-a-kink) mentionned that she expected Her Master, sorry Dom, or maybe boyfriend-good-at-knots to carry out the garbage but would do otherwise everything he wishes. BTW, Jeff, I understand your concept, TPE as a process, like an arrow over a precipice as Nietzsche would say, and I admire its intrisic beauty, but it does not have to be the only "TPE" form. Kinky but tired regards

GotSteel -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 4:10:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist There are no limits in TPE. Anything otherwise is semantic word games. As Master I am in control as if I own my slave in the same way I own any property. This is where you've entered fantasy land. Real life has limitations, such as not being able to own human beings as property. Referring to your significant other as a slave is a fantasy, anything otherwise is semantic word games. quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Either way, "limits" should be a clue to both parties that something is amiss. Ruling out girls who aren't comfortable being axe-murdered seems like it would really eliminate your dating pool.

leadership527 -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 5:14:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein ...but it does not have to be the only "TPE" form. of course not. That would be why the entire post was written from my own persepctive and my experience with Carol. I think I've pretty much got it figured out that my opinions on any topic are completely irelevant to somone else's relationship. And by that I do not mean "I'm right and it's just not worth it to convince those other idiots." What I mean is, "my opinion has no merit or worth whatsoever within any context but that of my own relationship." One day, we'll be able to post on collarme without including the same boilerplate legalese in every post.

naughtysubK -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 5:18:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius {fast reply} Greetings all.... Why am I reading some of the posts here and the thought that keeps running through my mind is that for some of these people, TPE means Toilet Paper Exchange and some bits that are being exchanged are used? It is an odd thought...but it is there. <wry grin> Lets go back to the basics. If there are limits from the slave side, there is no slavery. There is only a sub with a title. We are not talking about physical or knowledge limitations. My slave can not perform brain surgery because she has not been trained as a neurosurgeon. OK...maybe she could but she really really shouldn't. I might trust my sister-in-law to do it but only because she is an MD and trained as a surgeon even though neurosurgery is not her speciality. She at least has several clues and most of the training needed. You do have the question of Master shopping for someone with similar things they don't want to do. I see nothing wrong with this but what happens if the Master changes their minds and now wants to do them? The simple answer is the slave does them, the slave is punished and may still be forced to do them or the person stops being a slave. Sorry folks, but those are the only choices when it comes to TPE/TPT. Anything else is at best slavery light. One comment to a previous post. No. Not all Doms or Masters are trustworthy or telling you the truth. Some lie about just about everything including the idea that they are really dominant. The same can be said for subs and slaves. Trust is absolutely required for some things we do, especially complete surrender. Be well.... Malkinius My Dominant and I are not in a TPE type of relationship at the moment, but that is what he would like us to move towards. I told him from the beginning that I will never ever fuck a dog or a horse for him, and that I will absolutely not even entertain the thought of him poo-ing on me. If I undertand you correctly, you are saying that even though he has no interest whatsoever of either poo-ing on me or getting me to fuck a dog or a horse, that because I have these limits, I will never actually be his slave?

lovingpet -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 5:43:29 PM)
~FR~ May I turn this on its head without reading much of the thread? Too bad, I'm doing it anyway! LOL What if a slave has 10 things she greatly desires, but will be denied them within a TPE relationship with a given Master? Is it still TPE? Let's see what would happen in that case. There is absolute refusal on the Master's part. The slave begs and pleads over a long period of time for him to reconsider. The Master is unmoved. The slave then begins to ask if he would allow her to experiences these things, that they both knew she desired going into it, with someone else either under his supervision or with someone who does that form of play and he trusts. Again the Master is unmoved. These are HIS hard limits and he has his reasons. Now she is left to either attempt a topping from the bottom or to give them up. Okay, so the ubersubly thing to do would be to give them up. These are VERY important to the slave, however, so she tries to get these desires met some way. Now, if the Master makes any move on the matter, he is essentially transferring control back to the slave because his no was supposed to be absolute after all. What an incredibly painful, ridiculous mess! How about choosing people with whom we are compatible in these areas of extreme desire or extreme rejection in the first place? Semantic games don't mean squat when it is the emotions and well being of two real, live people hanging in the balance. Theory is grand to just mull over and debate, but I should certainly hope people don't feel the need to live out such games with real pawns. lovingpet

ResidentSadist -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 6:13:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist There are no limits in TPE. Anything otherwise is semantic word games. As Master I am in control as if I own my slave in the same way I own any property. This is where you've entered fantasy land. Real life has limitations, such as not being able to own human beings as property. Referring to your significant other as a slave is a fantasy, anything otherwise is semantic word games. quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Either way, "limits" should be a clue to both parties that something is amiss. Ruling out girls who aren't comfortable being axe-murdered seems like it would really eliminate your dating pool. I see that we agree on how real life has limitations and you cannot legally own someone. I wonder why you didn’t see that? I mention and acknowledge “the oxymoron of consensual slavery” in my reply. I carefully addresses the reality of non ownership by saying “as if I own my slave in the same way I own any property” which you used as quote. I do not understand your tone of contention when you agree with me and even quote me on it. Therefore, out of mutual respect and in the spirit you showed concern for my dating pool, I added links for all the big words so you can inderstand it this time. I would like to thank you for your concern about my dating pool. Despite our difference of opinion you are a true brother in leather to interest yourself like that. Well, let me tell you that there is no shortage of women that seek me out and wish me to completely cut off their tits or cut out their tongues. Although they usually describe it (in lengthy email petitions) with a knife rather than the axe you mention. Most anyone on this forum with Sadist in the screen name has a huge dating pool of “chop a titty” or “chop a finger” fans. And yes, there is a smaller segment that seeks to be euthanized due to some terminal disease and they would rather go out in glory as a film star doing what no others will than to fade away, slowly draining the life and finances of their family. Unfortunately for them I am a sexual sadist, not a clinical psychopath. Nonconsensual torture has no appeal to me. It’s parallel to someone that likes consensual sex not being interested in rape. Plus, I am sane and strictly avoid nut jobs like that. Besides, I live in Daytona Beach Florida, everhope is here with me and we are in the land of beach bunnies. Our dance cards are pretty much full.

CaringandReal -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 7:02:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist If the authority figure in a TPE chooses not to require murder, rape, turd eating or anything else, whether it would or would not harm his property, it is at their voluntary discretion not the demands of the subordinate. Whether the authority’s motive be mercy, love, intellect or greed because they don’t want to damage their property so they can continue to use it is irrelevant. The point is that it is their voluntary choice, not a limit imposed by the subordinate. Here in CollarMeLand, definitions and labels are often unreasonably challenged by infantile logic and semantic gymnastics. I am sure that someone will claim TPE “means whatever the people in the relationship want it to mean”. They can just kiss my ass. http://www.collarchat.com/m_2373559/mpage_1/tm.htm Nah, they'll just accuse you of "one true wayism." ;) Your definition of TPE is quite close to how I define it. I've never quite seen the point of being involved in something total that isn't really total. If you're the submissive/potential slave, and you need total, you just leap in when you can find it, without any reservations or any guarantees, and pray to your gods that the pool isn't full of piranas. (It usually isn't, and even if it were, having "limits" wouldn't exactly save you from them, would it?) "Dark Steven: 1. She never entered TPE. She entered into a relationship which is becoming TPE. It makes sense that TPE not be how a relationship begins. " Eh. Different strokes, different needs. That wasn't how I did it or could have done it and won't be how I do it again. Maybe having TPE is my hard limit? :p

CaringandReal -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 7:06:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius {fast reply} Greetings all.... Why am I reading some of the posts here and the thought that keeps running through my mind is that for some of these people, TPE means Toilet Paper Exchange and some bits that are being exchanged are used? It is an odd thought...but it is there. <wry grin> Malkinius Maybe someone like me put the evil idea in your head? ;) (And it is an truly evil idea--ugh!) http://www.collarchat.com/m_2720981/mpage_2/key_toilet%252Cpaper%252Cexchange/tm.htm#2722859

CaringandReal -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 7:11:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW See, this is JMO, but I don't think it is reasonable to -start out- expecting a comprehensive-authority or TPE-type relationship. Yielding up absolutely -everything- within one's capacity to another person really takes a great deal of, dare I say, "faith". That takes time to develop. Sure, but couldn't that faith occur during the "getting to know you well enough to..." stage and by the time the collar (or insert your own symbol) goes on, they know perfectly well what they're getting into (and so do you) and can do it with open eyes and a glad heart?

leadership527 -> RE: TPE (8/31/2009 7:15:14 PM)
~FR~ I've been thinking about this... what, exactly, does "T" mean to me. I guess to me it means "total". Accordingly, I consider Carol my TPE slave because, to date, she has never disobeyed a command. The moment she does so, she's no longer my TPE slave. That way, I'm dealing in the FACTS of the past rather than the speculation of the future. Actually, I demand more of her than obedience to actual commands. Not infrequently I posit theoretical future commands and ask, "would you obey?" Sometimes these commands are a real stretch for her and so the discussion may go on over a few months as she adapts. But in the end, refusing even a theoretical command would make me think of her as my sub, not my slave. There is an endless series of "what-ifs" that we can all speculate about but the discussions become "angels on pinhead" type discussions. The past, however, is a done deal and can be discussed as a matter of fact, not theory.

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