RE: TPE

RE: TPE (Full Version)

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Malkinius -> RE: TPE (9/1/2009 11:18:08 PM)
Greetings naughtysubK.... quote: ORIGINAL: naughtysubK maybe if I had lied in the beginning and told him that I would fuck his dog if he wanted, knowing that he wouldn't be interested in that, maybe then I could aspire to one day be his slave? I don't think you are getting it. It really doesn't matter what the limits are. As long as you can set limits you will never be a slave per what is called TPE or TPT slavery. Yes, you can do what usually passes for slavery among people 'into BDSM'. It is what I all a sub with a title. What you call yourself and what people who do go the full distance consider you can be two very different things. Most are just not as blunt as I am about it. Serve as best you can despite putting limits on your self and your Dom. Be well..... Malkinius

Malkinius -> RE: TPE (9/1/2009 11:33:55 PM)
Greetings lally2.... quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 you talk about youre version of whatever it is, RS the same. may i ask a question. in youre movements amongst the lifestyle, do the slaves that approach you know of you, know who you are, do they know what they are entering into simply by dint of having heard of you, within youre community. i ask this because i get the same impression from RS, that you both are part of a community that has its own reputation, you have youre own reputation and people, slaves, willl come up to you in the spirit of absolute TPE because they know absolutely how you play/train/conduct youreself. presumably you have a rep that you wish to maintain and protect.. this, with respect, is a little different to full on committed TPE, Ms relationships. Yes, you are correct. There are certain assumptions that are considered the norm there which are not the norm here. I bounce off the "lifestyle" from time to time in places like this. I do not consider myself a part of it. You are right that I am pretty well known and respected in my own area that I am involved in and according to whose tenets I do live my life. When I work with slaves there the understanding is that there is slavery and not slavery. There are no subs, no bottoms, no Doms, no Dommes, no Tops. There are people who are slave and people who are not slave. Most are not a slave and many of those never own a slave or do only for a short while then stop. A slave obeys, risks punishment for disobedience or chooses to no longer be a slave. The latter means either begging release or freeing herself and failing as a slave to that owner and possibly as a slave over all. Yes, it really is all that back and white. This is what we consider normal. I know that it is NOT normal for most of the "BDSM Lifestyle". As I said, I am not part of that 'lifestyle'. Be well.... Malkinius

Malkinius -> RE: TPE (9/1/2009 11:37:27 PM)
Greetings LillyoftheVally.... quote: ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally I wasn't talking TPE I was just saying that claiming the implementation of limits means that the sub is in control seems a little all or nothing to me That is because it is all or nothing. Whoever sets the limits is in ultimate control just as anyone with a safe word is in ultimate control of a BDSM scene. There is no gray area. It is very boolian or Yodaish. Be or be not. There is no try. Be well.... Malkinius

lally2 -> RE: TPE (9/2/2009 4:12:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Greetings lally2.... quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 you talk about youre version of whatever it is, RS the same. may i ask a question. in youre movements amongst the lifestyle, do the slaves that approach you know of you, know who you are, do they know what they are entering into simply by dint of having heard of you, within youre community. i ask this because i get the same impression from RS, that you both are part of a community that has its own reputation, you have youre own reputation and people, slaves, willl come up to you in the spirit of absolute TPE because they know absolutely how you play/train/conduct youreself. presumably you have a rep that you wish to maintain and protect.. this, with respect, is a little different to full on committed TPE, Ms relationships. Yes, you are correct. There are certain assumptions that are considered the norm there which are not the norm here. I bounce off the "lifestyle" from time to time in places like this. I do not consider myself a part of it. You are right that I am pretty well known and respected in my own area that I am involved in and according to whose tenets I do live my life. When I work with slaves there the understanding is that there is slavery and not slavery. There are no subs, no bottoms, no Doms, no Dommes, no Tops. There are people who are slave and people who are not slave. Most are not a slave and many of those never own a slave or do only for a short while then stop. A slave obeys, risks punishment for disobedience or chooses to no longer be a slave. The latter means either begging release or freeing herself and failing as a slave to that owner and possibly as a slave over all. Yes, it really is all that back and white. This is what we consider normal. I know that it is NOT normal for most of the "BDSM Lifestyle". As I said, I am not part of that 'lifestyle'. Be well.... Malkinius greetings Malkinius ' i absolutely agree that within the parameters of an agreed TPE there should be no limits, i agree totally that that is TPE, i dont think anyone on this thread disagrees with that. once in a full TPE thats it, its either TPE or it isnt. youre reputation preceeds you, people know, or should know what they are walking into. as they step through youre door its youre rules or nothing. that is the agreement between you and for the time allotted that is how it will be. it would take some kind of crazy person to walk up to a complete and utter stranger with no knowledge of them whatsoever and say 'do me Master, whatever is youre will, is mine'. here on the internet, where many people meet/find each other, discover some level of compatibility, they are, until that first meeting relatively unknown to each other. its certainly possible to meet someone on the internet and be so completely convinced they are 'it', that they can push forward a little quicker. but on the whole its strangers meeting strangers and im sure you would be one of the first to admit that there are some pretty strange people lurking on the net. additionally, for most of the people on here and on other sites, they are looking for a committed long term relationship. life in other words, well, thats the hope, there is much more at stake and much more of an accent on finding the right mix of everything. it takes time to build trust and absolute certainty that the stranger they have met is everything they say they are. youre reputation preceeds you and you can on the strength of that make youre absolute stance. and thats wonderful. but please, do not discount the people here and elsewhere for approaching their relationships with a bit of self preservatory stealth. i hope to be soon in a TPE relationship and when i am, if it works out, He will have absolute control over me, there will be no limits, but we have both agreed that there are things niether of us are interested in (compatibility). He has said that my 13 year old son comes first and that there are things that have been done to me in the past that need careful approach from Him so that He can enjoy them with me. we are hoping for a life long, committed TPE Master/slave relationship on the basis of what we have learnt about each other so far, we both believe it is more than possible to achieve. but until two weeks ago i had no idea He existed. there is a difference between the relationships you build on the strength of youre reputation and the relationships that build from ground zero, absolute strangers to absolute TPE.

RavenMuse -> RE: TPE (9/2/2009 6:06:35 AM)
Lally, Whilst I don't disagree with anything you've stated. The only differerance between someone knowing Me by reputation and someone approaching just from what is written on My profile is hearsay. A girl would be equaly lacking in braincells to commit herself to TPE on the basis of mear rumour regardless of what reputation there is, nor would I accept a girl in such a manner. Only by open effective communication, including face to face communication where she can ask about how I handle aspects she feels are important for her (And likewise I would be covering the bases of what I feel I need to know) in order to trust in the fact that there is indeed enough compatability to be worth looking to move forward. That stage is as short or as long as it needs to be, but it needs to be there else neither party is dealing with the reality of the other person, simply dealing with an assumption, a fantasy of them built from rumour and idealistic bullshit, or worse, an imange based on lust which will simply evaporate the instant real life enters into the equaision. Once that baseline trust has been formed there is something real for her to submit to and if she does then TPE rules are in place and the work begins in deepening the burgioning Dynamic.Until then she is not Mine, there is no 'relationship', there is no commitments on either side, simply two people looking at potential compatabilitys.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: TPE (9/2/2009 6:12:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse Lally, Whilst I don't disagree with anything you've stated. The only differerance between someone knowing Me by reputation and someone approaching just from what is written on My profile is hearsay. A girl would be equaly lacking in braincells to commit herself to TPE on the basis of mear rumour regardless of what reputation there is, nor would I accept a girl in such a manner. So so so so so true. Believing a rumour to me suggests laziness at best you can't know how you will relate to someone based on anothers experience. quote: ORIGINAL Malkinius That is because it is all or nothing. Whoever sets the limits is in ultimate control just as anyone with a safe word is in ultimate control of a BDSM scene. There is no gray area. It is very boolian or Yodaish. Be or be not. There is no try. In your world maybe, on others not so much. Because see by your logic s-types always have the control, they can be no limit up into you whack into their limits and then they leave

lally2 -> RE: TPE (9/2/2009 6:51:31 AM)
hey there RavenMuse [:)] absolutely, in many ways, from where im sitting anyway - what sort of TPE is it if the Master has no idea about the slave He is controlling and the slave has no idea of the man she is submitting to. but i can also accept that Masters like Malkinius and ResidentSadist have their own precepts, methods and stance and i have no idea atall about the sort of set ups they operate or how they work, but they obviously do work for them and the people involved. part of the joy for me is in knowing my Master and pleasing Him in ways only i know how to because i know Him well enough to be sure that i will be, as apposed to just second guessing and going off on some random wimsy of my own. part of the TPE acronym is 'exchange' - in my book exchange means a two way giving. for that to have any meaning (in a committed relationship) both people need to know, understand and fully endorse that exchange if i were to hand myself over to someone i did not know atall then in my mind that would be me handing myself over for the sake of BDSM and control. it would not be to the man, how could it be when i have no idea who it is im handing myself over to. in my head that isnt TPE to be honest because for it to be TPE He needs to know me very well and draw from me the things He knows im capable of, thinks im capable of and even the things He knows im nervous about, but knows me well enough to push for. by return i am in enslavement to the man, not to the BDSM and by dint of that the areas that i am not confident about i can hand over to Him knowing that i am His valued property and He would not do anything to break the trust He has built in me. that to me is TPE and it may take a while or no time atall, depends but the end goal isnt the point, its the process and everyone is different. having said that i can fully imagine a situation where a woman enters Malkinius' household and accepts him as her training Master for an allotted time and fully endorses and embraces that, even whilst not really knowing Him or Him knowing her. for them they enter a TPE situation where He rules and she obeys. but her needs as a woman seeking a short term training period are different to a woman seeking a long term, life long Master and so depth of knowledge and understanding in each other arent necessarily a prerequisite when the situation she is in is temporary.

RavenMuse -> RE: TPE (9/2/2009 7:01:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally So so so so so true. Believing a rumour to me suggests laziness at best you can't know how you will relate to someone based on anothers experience. There have been quite a few who by profile and reputation would have been highly compatable, however on looking deeper and/or meeting there hasn't been a compatability of attitude or even simpler, just not the required chemistry. Something only to be found when dealing with the person directly. As for the 'limits' issue, a girl with a problem in a specific area whom I wouldn't find compatable is one that decides it is a 'limit' something for HER to maintain control of, something she decides isn't something she will ALLOW another to have authority over. Such a girl isn't what I am looking for, regardless of if the area is one I am likely to ever wish to indulge in or not.... because the attitude is wrong for how I approach TPE. My current girl has a dread fear of singletails, she informed Me of the facts, that it was there but trusted in My approach, leaving how it is handled if at all down to Me. After two years We have slowly got to the stage where We can play lightly with them. I read her and it is My call how far it goes. Oft she feels that she could have gone further, she hasn't once been pushed past what she can handle and thus progress is slowly made. Wether I decided to work on it or not isn't the issue, the issue is attitude. My girl was compatable to how I handle TPE, the authority and control are Mine, she trusts I will handle that responcibly and not harm My property. she didn't try to retain control of the area herself. If she ever looses that level of trust in Me then she knows where the door is as without trust there is no relationship worth having, especialy not a TPE one.

RavenMuse -> RE: TPE (9/2/2009 7:08:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 part of the TPE acronym is 'exchange' - in my book exchange means a two way giving. for that to have any meaning (in a committed relationship) both people need to know, understand and fully endorse that exchange Bingo! I not only took up control of My girl along with her submission, I also took up responcibility for her.... what sort of moron is going to take responcibility for something He has no clue how far He can trust its actions and behaviour. As you say, it can take a long time or a short time... My girl came round for coffee and never left, it moved fast but those bases where checked and touched on. Our instincts filling in the gaps and sure We took a chance but it was far from a blind risk, We found reason to trust that the risk was worth taking.... Two years down the line and I certainly haven't regretted it.

CaringandReal -> RE: TPE (9/2/2009 6:12:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet That's kind of my point. I would think the same would apply to limits as well. If there are major pieces that are hold out, then it is not "total" in any sense, so claiming to enter into it is delusional at best. We weren't talking soft limits or, in my example, tolerated things. These were HARD limits and desires that may even go so far as to be needs. If they don't match, then there can never really be a full exchange in the way TPE would require. Can you give an example of such a limit? I'm just curious. It doesn't have to be one you actually feel, but something on a similar level. An example for someone might be vaginal sex. If your partner couldn't do that with you, would you want to have a power exchange with them anyway? Some women I know would say yes to that; some would find that a hard limit. quote: I will say that hard limits can become not so hard over time, so actually I care less about limits and more about someone having to give up things. The whole thing here is that the dominant is giving up something he/she enjoys because of a slave's limits. If a dominant has a hard limit on something, then whether the slave "lives for it" or not, he/she will have to do without it. It is just the flip side of the same coin. This isn't a theoretical game at all. It's just plain old fashioned compatibility no matter how it is gussied up. lovingpet Yeah, compatibility is a very big part of it, but sometimes, if someone is really what you need in all the essential ways that have nothing to do with various limits, wouldn't you overlook some of the limits (even hard limits) incopatibilities for the sake of being with this wonderful person? Who knows, maybe you will grow and change in cool ways by facing and overcoming this limit (or your disappointment over his limit).

Malkinius -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 12:57:21 AM)
Greetings LillyoftheVally.... quote: ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally quote: ORIGINAL Malkinius That is because it is all or nothing. Whoever sets the limits is in ultimate control just as anyone with a safe word is in ultimate control of a BDSM scene. There is no gray area. It is very boolian or Yodaish. Be or be not. There is no try. In your world maybe, on others not so much. Because see by your logic s-types always have the control, they can be no limit up into you whack into their limits and then they leave No, not in my world. In reality. Subs and slaves are different in that respect. Also, since I consider most who are called slaves really subs with a title because they do set limits then you could say that even many slaves are really just subs and all subs are in ultimate control. Don't try to lump all "s-types" as you put it together. The slaves who actually can give up all control are rare but really do exist. No sub can or does that. That is part of the definition of the difference between them. One other thing. Do not assume the owner will do things to harm his slave or will not take the problems and things which limit her into account. All of the good ones do and even most of the average ones do. Only the people who are not good people in the first place will not do so. Be well.... Malkinius

LillyoftheVally -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 3:49:08 AM)
I lump them all together because despite your post you didn't address the fact that all can leave. And also it is your definition not a universal one. I find it interesting how you use your words, not allowed to have a limit but can discuss things that limit her. Never mind, we all choose our own paths and whatever makes us happy, if it makes your relationship feel more valid that is fine

RavenMuse -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 5:58:35 AM)
lilly, if you get your teeth out of Malkinius' ankles for a moment and remember that you are discussing an M/s Dynamic here you maybe spot what you seem to have so far overlooked. Namely the issue of who has the Authority/control. A girl imposing their own limits on the situation is retaining control of those areas, a slave however has found a Master whom she trusts to have control/authority over EVERY aspect of her life. Who can make a rational informed decision regarding something They don't have all the relevant information about? Masters maybe good but guess what, We can't read minds, so yes of course We discuss such issues with Our girls, so We have all the information at hand, We understand what it is We are making the decisions about and can then decide what We consider the best way to move forward. Like the situation with My Own girl I outlined above. Had she been sub and setting her own limits then in all likelyhood it would have been a hard limit, a no go area. Had she been just a playpartner I would have accepted such, but she knew that I wouldn't accept it from a girl I Owned, such a girl needed to feel sure she could trust ME to handle it without harming her..... The control and authority is Mine and after looking into it till I was sure I fully understood what was going on, I decided it was an area I could make slow improvement on. It was a decision that scared her, BUT that trust was there, she knew that if I said I could make progress on it without causing her harm, I could.... and I would. There was nerves from her but no 'argument', it wasn't a decision she wanted nor agreed with but it was My decision and she accepted it. In the two years since, she has made progress, seen that I made the right call and such adds to her trust in Me to make the right call. The issue isn't about ensuring that the girl is safe. The assumption is that the people concerned are reasonably sane. A sub with her own limits is working to ensure her safety, a slave works to find a Master whom she can trust with her safety and a Master will use his control and all the information at hand to ensure the safety of His property. The issue is where that control and authority resides. With the girl or with the Master.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 7:19:36 AM)
It is simply the manipulation of terms, saying she will implement no limits in one breath and then we will discuss her limitations in another is simply being pedantic. As seems so many of these discussions. I wouldn't tolerate someone who raged and my girl gets angry or whatever it is trying to hold your relationship at a higher level simply by using terminology. My point is that to say someone has limits makes them in control seems a little silly because actually everyone has limits, that doesn't mitigate TPE as has been said again a million times you pick someone who's own limits lie in the boundaries of your own and if someone pushes too far the relationship can end, which therefore means that the slave must always be in control because s/he can always leave. As I said pedantic. I actually agree with your last paragraph but in reality though what is the difference, seems to me not much. I don't identify as slave yet I have never had a limit conversation with someone because surely everyone tries to pick someone who listens and doesnt want to hurt them? And to be fair all slaves are in control, because they choose their master

leadership527 -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 8:52:27 AM)
Lilly: I personally think you are right. I also think Raven & Malkinus are right. Carol very definitely retains at least some level of concern for her own health & well being. Were I to make big enough mistakes, it's clearly true that some survival instinct would kick in and she'd tell me to get lost. I think, at most, what we are talking abot here is a difference in mindset, not actuality. But if you're going to take an engineer's viewpoint on it, then "total" can never exist. That, however, doesn't invalidate the concept in a more figurative sense. As much as I'm more of the literal engineer's mindset myself, there is a place in the world for poets too. Unattainable goals can still be worthy targets to aim for. Also, implicit in your comment was the idea that M/s was, somehow, some sort of higher level of relationship. At least in my mind, the "highest" level of relationship is whatever puts the most smiles on the faces of the participants. We have a couple who are good friends and their dynamic runs largely to the bedroom side of things. Given that they've been married for 20 years now and are deeply and vibrantly happy with each other, I gotta think of that as "a great dynamic".

GraciousLady -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 9:30:27 AM)
Even if you don't want limits your mental, emotional and physical state will give you limits. A TPE will have to work within those limits. Nothing is 100% but death.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 10:05:16 AM)
quote: Nothing is 100% but death. ... and there are those of us who even speculate on whether -that- is an absolute. smiles Dame Calla

RavenMuse -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 10:05:46 AM)
Lilly as I said, stop trying to focus on point scoring bullshit against Malkinius and actualy look at the actual issue... namely who is in control. Sure there are limits in every situation, somethings are going to be harmful somethings are not, so for a Master with more than half a brain HE will limit HIMSELF to such actions that maintain His property in an effective, healthy manner. He is in control, His judgement and the girl trusts in that judgement, she isn't retaining that control herself, she has submitted that control to Him. He didn't say He would impliment no limits He said He wouldn't accept THEM implimenting limits. Discussing the issue, learning all the facts and then making His decision based on those facts is not, as you put it "being pedantic" it is acknowledging Who has control, Whos judgement it is, Whos decision on what actions are taken and in what way the given facts of the situation are accounted for. As for the utter tosh of them being in control because they can leave, or because until they submit they can choose... get real. Control within a relationship isn't based on who can end it, I can dismiss her just as easily as she can withdraw submission and walk away. We both saw compatability and 'chose' each other. That isn't where control comes from, that comes from the Dynamic WITHIN the relationship.

Apocalypso -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 10:18:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse As for the utter tosh of them being in control because they can leave, or because until they submit they can choose... get real. Control within a relationship isn't based on who can end it, I can dismiss her just as easily as she can withdraw submission and walk away. Yes, but then you do not have total control over whether she can leave or not. To argue otherwise is merely to redefine "control". If you do not control 100% how the relationship can end, then you do not have 100% control over all the aspects of the relationship. Which doesn't matter overall. It merely means that a (legitimate) reducto ab absurdum has shown your logical premises not to work.

RavenMuse -> RE: TPE (9/3/2009 10:22:30 AM)
Now whos guilty of pedantic bollox? Control within the relationship is not effected by the fact that either of Us can choose to end it... that ends it, it doesn't change anything within it. So long as it continues, Control/Authority is Mine and Mine alone.

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